Faith in Christ or Faith in our faith.

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Wormwood

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lukethreesix said:
No body is saying that faith isn't necessary? IT IS VERY NECESSARY!!! But it is "NOT of yourselves", it is given, as a gift, to us by the grace of God. Can it be any clearer?
As I said before, the author of this video is not a Calvinist. I understand that you think faith is a work if it is understood to be something apart from God's unilateral determinism. However, besides me disagreeing with you on that point, this video is not about Calvinism. It is a plea for universalism. It is not saying faith is necessary as a gift of God to receive salvation. It is saying that the cross saves all mankind and any view that faith (whether deriving from God or from man) is necessary limits the work of Jesus and makes Jesus only a conditional Savior. His claim is that all people are saved and going to heaven and faith only helps us understand this to be so.

ScottAU-

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Paul called faith a work!
Work of faith and labor of love are two sides of the same coin here. Paul is not calling faith a work. He is referencing the work produced by faith and the labor that is the result of love. He is not classifying belief as a "works based righteousness" as this video is claiming. Faith is not a work. The fruit of biblical faith is righteous works, but it is not a work. The verses I showed make it very clear that Paul viewed faith and work as opposite sides of the spectrum when it came to how one receives is justified before God.
 

williemac

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lukethreesix said:
No body is saying that faith isn't necessary? IT IS VERY NECESSARY!!! But it is "NOT of yourselves", it is given, as a gift, to us by the grace of God. Can it be any clearer?
The passage is not saying that faith is not of ourselves. The subject of that passage is salvation. Salvation is what is being received. Salvation is a gift. Therefore, salvation is that which is not of ourselves...not of works lest any man should boast. The passage is not calling faith a gift.

But salvation is given (grace) and is received (faith). Faith has a purpose and a role. It is the means by which we accept something that is offered. It is an ability that is humanly universal. It is a mistake to render faith as something that is covertly given by God in individual cases. Faith comes by hearing. Faith is an instrument. It is not what qualifies us for grace. God gives grace to the humble.

lukethreesix said:
Sorry to rain on your parade, lukethreesix. This whole theory of total depravity is born out of false humility. In its attempt to give God all the credit, it fails to acknowledge His demand that we humble ourselves. - williemac

"an attempt to give God all the credit"? Are you suggesting He shouldn't? God deserves ALL the credit, not you.
You can twist my words all you want. There is something that is called false humility. We are created in God's image. Man's sinful state is not so powerful so as to completely undo what God has created. We were never given such power.

We have the God given ability to think, reason, and respond. What Gives God the credit is that He is the source of life and righteousness and He has offered them to us freely. The false humility of the theory total depravity denies our ability to understand and appreciate our need, and denies our ability to recognize the offer of God to freely fill our need. True humility understands and accepts the offer.

The object of faith is God. The very nature of faith is that it gives God all the credit and glory. Real faith does not exalt itself. It exalts God.

For those who say that faith can get credit, they should realize that this would mean they also can take credit for giving God the credit. Both are the same. Neither make any sense.
 

lukethreesix

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Romans 9, It (salvation) is NOT to him who wants it or to him who runs after it, but its to him whom GOD wills it....does the potter not have power over the clay?
I think you guys are getting confused by salvation, and reigning with Christ. Those blessed by the first resurrection and those who have to wait.
 

Wormwood

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I disagree. I think you are misunderstanding both the video (its not about Calvinism) and the purpose of Romans 9. The main point of Romans 9 is expressed in verses 30-33 and that point is quite the opposite of what you are proposing. It is about God's sovereignty that doesn't not mandate he must save those he has elected for service. Rather he has chosen by his own sovereignty to save by faith, regardless of whether or not they were elected for service.

30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 as it is written,
"Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."
 

ScottAU

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Wormwood said:
ScottAU-


Work of faith and labor of love are two sides of the same coin here. Paul is not calling faith a work. He is referencing the work produced by faith and the labor that is the result of love. He is not classifying belief as a "works based righteousness" as this video is claiming. Faith is not a work. The fruit of biblical faith is righteous works, but it is not a work. The verses I showed make it very clear that Paul viewed faith and work as opposite sides of the spectrum when it came to how one receives is justified before God.
My comment was not related to the video nor was it related to "works based rigtheousness." My comment is stating matter of factly that faith is a "working dynamic" or the "dynamic mover" by which a Saint submits themselves to God. In other words faith is simply the driving force of an individual that produces action. Faith is active as opposed to passive and therefore "faith works."

Faith is most definitely a work and Paul calls it such. He specifically stated "work of faith" because Paul understood that faith is the active principle by which we cooperate with God.

Paul doesn't say a "work produced by faith" in 1Th 1:3. Sure faith does produce works but that is not what Paul is stating in that verse. Paul is compelling the people to "continue being doers of the word."

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

The opposite of "ceasing" is "continuing to do" and Paul is admonishing the reader to continue to be doers. It is not complicated. Jesus taught the exact same thing when He said that people need to be hearers AND doers. The "doing" is the manifest work of a genuine faith. Noah built the Ark by faith and therefore the actual act of building was a work of faith. Noah's faith was a working faith.

If that really difficult to understand?

When the Bible says "not of works" the context is "works of the law." The context is not "doing nothing."

A Saint does not murder because of the law which states "thou shalt not murder." No. Outward adherance to a law is not the means of the righteousness of God. True righteousness flows out of a pure heart, a heart that is in submission to God. Thus righteousness is not of the work of obeying "thou shalt not murder," rather righteousness of a faith that works by love.

Faith works. Faith is active.

Faith works by love;

Love fulfills the law.



Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

A saint does not approach God and claim righteousness because they obey some laws. No. A Saint is righteousness because they possess an active faith which works by love and that love manifests itself as holiness.

The bottom line is the heart. Heart purity is key. Modern theology denies heart purity because they teach that the heart remains defiled due to the flesh body.
 

Dodo_David

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"Modern theology denies heart purity because they teach that the heart remains defiled due to the flesh body."

I know of no such theology being taught. What is taught is that the flesh continues to trip us up.
Although the individual's spirit seeks to be godly, the flesh still strives to please itself even if doing so would be contrary to God's will.
 

lukethreesix

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the doctrine of forever torment relies and insists that the human will be conscious forever. This would mean that in both cases, lost or saved, the fate is to live forever. One, living forever happy. The other, living forever miserable. Jesus, Paul, and all the prophets taught the end of the wicked, not the wicked lasting forever.
 

Wormwood

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ScottAU said:
My comment was not related to the video nor was it related to "works based rigtheousness." My comment is stating matter of factly that faith is a "working dynamic" or the "dynamic mover" by which a Saint submits themselves to God. In other words faith is simply the driving force of an individual that produces action. Faith is active as opposed to passive and therefore "faith works."

Faith is most definitely a work and Paul calls it such. He specifically stated "work of faith" because Paul understood that faith is the active principle by which we cooperate with God.

Paul doesn't say a "work produced by faith" in 1Th 1:3. Sure faith does produce works but that is not what Paul is stating in that verse. Paul is compelling the people to "continue being doers of the word."

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

The opposite of "ceasing" is "continuing to do" and Paul is admonishing the reader to continue to be doers. It is not complicated. Jesus taught the exact same thing when He said that people need to be hearers AND doers. The "doing" is the manifest work of a genuine faith. Noah built the Ark by faith and therefore the actual act of building was a work of faith. Noah's faith was a working faith.

If that really difficult to understand?

When the Bible says "not of works" the context is "works of the law." The context is not "doing nothing."

A Saint does not murder because of the law which states "thou shalt not murder." No. Outward adherance to a law is not the means of the righteousness of God. True righteousness flows out of a pure heart, a heart that is in submission to God. Thus righteousness is not of the work of obeying "thou shalt not murder," rather righteousness of a faith that works by love.

Faith works. Faith is active.

Faith works by love;

Love fulfills the law.



Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

A saint does not approach God and claim righteousness because they obey some laws. No. A Saint is righteousness because they possess an active faith which works by love and that love manifests itself as holiness.

The bottom line is the heart. Heart purity is key. Modern theology denies heart purity because they teach that the heart remains defiled due to the flesh body.
Yes, I know what you are passionate about. However, you were contradicting a statement I made and so I was giving rationale for why I said what I said. It would be helpful if you were following the argument or the thread before you do that.
lukethreesix said:
the doctrine of forever torment relies and insists that the human will be conscious forever. This would mean that in both cases, lost or saved, the fate is to live forever. One, living forever happy. The other, living forever miserable. Jesus, Paul, and all the prophets taught the end of the wicked, not the wicked lasting forever.
The doctrine of eternal punishment in hell claims that wickedness will be forever cast away and punished by God. You make it sound like the doctrine argues that wickedness will pervade our lives or the world forever, which is a misrepresentation.
 

lukethreesix

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I didn't say it would invade OUR world, but it wouls exist, continue, and live on forever. Instead of God destroying evil, He preserves it forever? It is not biblical and contrasts the character of God and His promise to DESTROY evil, not make it eternal.
 

ScottAU

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Dodo_David said:
"Modern theology denies heart purity because they teach that the heart remains defiled due to the flesh body."

I know of no such theology being taught. What is taught is that the flesh continues to trip us up.
Although the individual's spirit seeks to be godly, the flesh still strives to please itself even if doing so would be contrary to God's will.
The Bible states...

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.


Here is a quote from the Westminster Confession of Faith in the section of Sanctification...

I. They, who are once effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart, and a new spirit created in them, are further sanctified, really and personally, through the virtue of Christ's death and resurrection,[1] by His Word and Spirit dwelling in them:[2] the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed,[3] and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified;[4] and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces,[5] to the practice of true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.[6]
II. This sanctification is throughout, in the whole man;[7] yet imperfect in this life, there abiding still some remnants of corruption in every part;[8] whence arises a continual and irreconcilable war, the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh.[9]
III. In which war, although the remaining corruption, for a time, may much prevail;[10] yet, through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part does overcome;[11] and so, the saints grow in grace,[12] perfecting holiness in the fear of God.[13]

Here is another quote from the section on Perseverance...

I. They, whom God has accepted in His Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.[1]
II. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father;[2] upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ,[3] the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them,[4] and the nature of the covenant of grace:[5] from all which arises also the certainty and infallibility thereof.[6]
III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins;[7] and, for a time, continue therein:[8] whereby they incur God's displeasure,[9] and grieve His Holy Spirit,[10] come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts,[11] have their hearts hardened,[12] and their consciences wounded;[13] hurt and scandalize others,[14] and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.[15]


The Westminster Confession is not some obscure document, it is the basis of much of modern theology and teaches clearly that Christian's can be saved and sinning at the same time.

You yourself claim that the "flesh trips you up." What do you mean by that?

I would agree that the flesh brings with it temptation but the yielding to temptation ought to be out of the question. The Bible teaches...

Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

If the flesh and the associated passions and desires are crucified and we thus walk according to the Spirit then there is no way that the "flesh will trip us up." Sure the flesh will tempt us but we put that temptation to death via putting on the mind of Christ.

The Christian walk is one of victory, not defeat.
 

williemac

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lukethreesix said:
the doctrine of forever torment relies and insists that the human will be conscious forever. This would mean that in both cases, lost or saved, the fate is to live forever. One, living forever happy. The other, living forever miserable. Jesus, Paul, and all the prophets taught the end of the wicked, not the wicked lasting forever.
Now we are talking. In John 6:50,51, living forever is not designated to all men, but only those who partake of Jesus.
 

lukethreesix

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Willie Mac, I believe as Jerome did, "Gods enemies will perish, not that they cease to exist but cease to be enemies"
God love will win all hearts.
 

williemac

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ScottAU said:
The Bible states...

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.


Here is a quote from the Westminster Confession of Faith in the section of Sanctification...

I. They, who are once effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart, and a new spirit created in them, are further sanctified, really and personally, through the virtue of Christ's death and resurrection,[1] by His Word and Spirit dwelling in them:[2] the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed,[3] and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified;[4] and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces,[5] to the practice of true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.[6]
II. This sanctification is throughout, in the whole man;[7] yet imperfect in this life, there abiding still some remnants of corruption in every part;[8] whence arises a continual and irreconcilable war, the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh.[9]
III. In which war, although the remaining corruption, for a time, may much prevail;[10] yet, through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part does overcome;[11] and so, the saints grow in grace,[12] perfecting holiness in the fear of God.[13]

Here is another quote from the section on Perseverance...

I. They, whom God has accepted in His Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.[1]
II. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father;[2] upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ,[3] the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them,[4] and the nature of the covenant of grace:[5] from all which arises also the certainty and infallibility thereof.[6]
III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins;[7] and, for a time, continue therein:[8] whereby they incur God's displeasure,[9] and grieve His Holy Spirit,[10] come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts,[11] have their hearts hardened,[12] and their consciences wounded;[13] hurt and scandalize others,[14] and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.[15]


The Westminster Confession is not some obscure document, it is the basis of much of modern theology and teaches clearly that Christian's can be saved and sinning at the same time.

You yourself claim that the "flesh trips you up." What do you mean by that?

I would agree that the flesh brings with it temptation but the yielding to temptation ought to be out of the question. The Bible teaches...

Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

If the flesh and the associated passions and desires are crucified and we thus walk according to the Spirit then there is no way that the "flesh will trip us up." Sure the flesh will tempt us but we put that temptation to death via putting on the mind of Christ.

The Christian walk is one of victory, not defeat.
All of this is true, relevant, and important, as long as salvation is kept off the table in it. This is the victory that overcomes the world-our faith (1John 5:4) There are two categories of sanctification. The eternal one is done by Jesus, the life giver to His church. The temporal one is done by us, to bear fruit for rewards in heaven, and to be useful to the Master. It is an enormous jump from useful to useless.

lukethreesix said:
Willie Mac, I believe as Jerome did, "Gods enemies will perish, not that they cease to exist but cease to be enemies"
God love will win all hearts.
This is where we part company. If God's love will win all hearts, then why did Lucifer and his followers walk away from it?

I was a follower of a certain individual who taught the grace message, until I started to notice questionable interpretations of scripture in his teaching. He eventually veered over to universalism. I have studied both subjects for a long, long time. I have discussed and debated both subject for years. Such passages as Math.10:28 does not allow for universal salvation. Unfortunately, your reply makes the same mistake that they do who promote forever torment. That is, the changing of the meaning of words to accommodate a position. Perish means perish. Death means cessation of life. God is not the author of confusion. He first gave us language for communication. Then He spoke to us. The bible is not a dictionary.
 

lukethreesix

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Actually Williemac, "perish" like in Jn 3:16 is the same greek word as "lost" as in the parable of the lost sheep or the lost son. We find the same word when Jesus is sleeping in the boat and Peter says "Lord we are perishing". Question: did they? is the "lost (perished)" sheep forever lost? at the end of Luke 15 the Father says to the older son "this son of mine was "lost (perished)" but now is found.
God is in the business of restoration. Once we were lost, we may perish, all die in adam. But ALL LIVE in Christ. That doesnt mean we all have the same rewards (God will render to each man according to his deeds) but all people will come to God and worship (Ps 22, 65, Is 45, Phil 2). God deserves worship from His creation, God is not mocked. Jesus purchased all on the cross, will he not receive all he purchased? I am convinced He will restore ALL things.
 

williemac

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lukethreesix said:
Actually Williemac, "perish" like in Jn 3:16 is the same greek word as "lost" as in the parable of the lost sheep or the lost son. We find the same word when Jesus is sleeping in the boat and Peter says "Lord we are perishing". Question: did they? is the "lost (perished)" sheep forever lost? at the end of Luke 15 the Father says to the older son "this son of mine was "lost (perished)" but now is found.
God is in the business of restoration. Once we were lost, we may perish, all die in adam. But ALL LIVE in Christ. That doesnt mean we all have the same rewards (God will render to each man according to his deeds) but all people will come to God and worship (Ps 22, 65, Is 45, Phil 2). God deserves worship from His creation, God is not mocked. Jesus purchased all on the cross, will he not receive all he purchased? I am convinced He will restore ALL things.
This is a typical response concerning words like "perish". And as valid as it may seem, the word can be used in a literal sense or a figure of speech. The way we can tell which it is, is by examining the context. In John 3:16, Jesus compared it with its alternative destiny, which is to have everlasting life. In this case, whatever the word means, it cannot mean the same as everlasting life. I use the same method in John 6:50,51, where living forever is also compared to its alternative destiny, which is to die. Again, they both cannot mean the same thing.

However, to address your opinion, which is that no one will perish in the literal sense because Jesus will ultimately win over the entire human race.....sorry but we are told that anyone who's name is not written in the Lamb's book of life will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. This judgment is called the second death. It is not called anything that would resemble a purging for the sake of reconciliation. It is final. We are told that we will be able to go and gaze upon the corpses of those who transgressed against God. We are told that their worm does not die, nor their fire quenched. This is figurative language that is meant to describe a state that is permanent. It is also referred to as an everlasting judgement. (A corpse is a dead body, for those whom it concerns)

The one thing that all of life has in common is that it bears fruit. This was the first instruction given to Adam and Eve. It should be noted that along with this command came the sex drive. There was no way this order wasn't going to be followed. However, in the parable of the talents, we find a man who took the effort to dig a hole and bury his money so that it could not bear fruit. This represents willful opposition to our role and purpose. This was the first offense; that of Lucifer, who forsook his God given role and determined to elevate his status to that of God.

There is no guarantee of winning over this state of mind with love. There is no restoring this determination as long as the free will of a person is respected. The only recourse of God...after much long suffering, is to do away with the life that refuses to be on board with its God given purpose. Jesus cursed a fig tree that failed to bear fruit. This shows us the heart of God in the matter. I think we should allow Him to have His day of Judgment on this...not that He needs our permission. Relationship is not forced. Love does not always change the heart of a self exalting person.
 

lukethreesix

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Did Jesus only have victory over the first death but not the second? Paul says the last enemy to be destroyed is death. How can the first death be the last enemy if there other death after that one? Christ is victorious over death (all death) and holds the keys to death and hell. What's the point of having keys if one can't open it, (and to add, he says "don't fear...I hold the keys...") Jesus must have total victory, not just victory over a death or some people, but all death and all people.
 

Harry3142

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Everyone has a decision to make. Will he trust in what God has already accomplished through his Son, Jesus Christ, or will he reject it? In either case the decision is man's, not God's. And that is what lies at the core of saving faith, namely, our own willingness to make the decision to accept Jesus' atoning sacrifice as cleansing us of our sins.

It can be compared to experiences which the U.S. Navy had in The Pacific Theater during World War 2. After they had engaged the enemy in battle, they sometimes found sailors from ships which they had sunk clinging to debris. They would throw them a lifeline, offering to save their lives by bringing them on board their own ships. Some sailors took the lifelines, and so were pulled to safety. But others refused to take the lifelines, and so eventually perished in the sea. In both cases it was the decision that was made by the men in the water, rather than the men on the U.S. ship, that determined their fate.
 
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lukethreesix

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Harry, that means Jesus is only victorious IF we let him.
"I can't go for that, no no, no can do. No I can't go for that, can't go for that, can't go for that, can't go for that..." - Darrel Hall and John Oats

Do you honestly believe YOU found Jesus. And by YOUR awesome will power turned from your sins and put YOUR faith to work believing in Jesus? That's a lot of YOU, and not so much Jesus.
I don't mean to be jerky, just trying to make the point: its God dude, all God!
 

Dodo_David

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ScottAU said:
If the flesh and the associated passions and desires are crucified and we thus walk according to the Spirit then there is no way that the "flesh will trip us up." Sure the flesh will tempt us but we put that temptation to death via putting on the mind of Christ.
In Romans 7:25 (ESV), the Apostle Paul says, "So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin."
In that verse, Paul is speaking in the present tense.