Faith in Christ or Faith in our faith.

[lukethreesix]

Please watch this video and discuss....Faith is a gift, given to us by God when He decides to give it. Are we saved by Christ and his work on the cross, or are we saved by our own will power to believe? Great video, enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1zXb8XNsLw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[Wormwood]

The video is long on words and short on any sort of biblical knowledge.
1. Christ's title as Savior of the world is not in jeopardy if people reject his salvation.
2. Faith is always contrasted to works in the Bible. Calling faith a work betrays a complete lack of biblical knowledge.
3. The importance of believing in the work of the cross does not limit the sufficiency of the cross.
4. He shows no knowledge of English grammar. "Salvation by grace through faith" shows how salvation occurs. If I say, "Wisdom comes by intelligence through experience" I am not saying that all who have intelligence are wise and experience merely reveals the wisdom they already have. No, Wisdom is received through necessary intelligence that is coupled with personal experience. That is what the prepositions "by" and "through" express. They are the means salvation comes (by grace and through faith), not merely the means by which someone recognizes that which they already have.
5. Do we believe in Jesus or in our belief in Jesus? Um, I believe in Jesus. And Jesus said, "If you do not believe in me, you will certainly die in your sins." He also said, "Anyone who does not believe stands condemned already..." My faith in Jesus means I have faith in what Jesus did as well as what he taught...which is nothing close to what this person is pandering.

The Greek word for faith is pistis which means belief, faith, or trust. Faith is about trusting and relying on the sufficiency of Jesus. That sufficiency is not eliminated due to our need to embrace it. It is like a person jumping out of a plane heading to crash with a parachute. The parachute is sufficient to save the person. However, belief is also necessary for the person to jump and be saved by the sufficient parachute. If a person stays in the plan and crashes due to unbelief in the saving power of the parachute, it does not mean the parachute was insufficient. In sum, the sufficiency of the means of salvation (parachute) is not eliminated or compromised by the importance of the persons trust in that sufficiency (the jump from the plane and pulling the rip cord). They are not contradictory, but complimentary. Moreover, if we say, the salvation of Christ is secured regardless of anything we do or do not do, then faith/trust is made irrelevant. This is a gnostic notion that sees faith as mere cognitive assent to facts rather than what the Bible portrays...a necessary trust and dependence upon Jesus' work and teaching. "Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness." It does not read, "Abraham was righteous, and his belief made him aware of that fact." There is nothing of value in this video.

 

[lukethreesix]

Is faith a gift from God or is it something we must conjure up within our totally depraved souls?

 

[ScottAU]

Is faith a gift from God or is it something we must conjure up within our totally depraved souls?

Faith is the active dynamic of yielding to God from the heart. It has it's origin with God whose grace has appeared to all men teaching them to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and to live soberly, uprightly in the present. When an individual yields to the conviction over their sin and forsakes their rebellion and therefore yields to God then the power of God flows through them and faith will grow.

Noah was saved by his faith for when God warned him of coming judgement and commanded him to build an ark he obeyed God. Noah's faith was the active dynamic by which he was a doer of the will of God.

Faith without deeds is dead because a passive faith is not an active dynamic. If Noah's faith did not produce action then his faith would have been demonstrated to be a dead faith.


When the Bible teaches we are saved by grace through faith and not of works the context is what we are saved by the "leading of God" through the "active dynamic of submission" as opposed to "obeying a set of outward rules."

Jesus specifically taught that it is the "doers" of the will of God who will enter the kingdom. Jesus also specifically taught that we must "abide" in Him and that IF we keep His commandments then we will abide in the love of the Father.

 

[lukethreesix]

"no one seeks God, no not one" "mans heart is deceitful above all things" "you dont choose me, I choose you" " you are saved BY grace through faith that is NOT of yourselves but it IS A GIFT from God."
We are dead (spiritually) without Christ. a dead person can not repent. a dead person can not do anything unless he is first made alive. God does the changing of hearts, God awakens spirits. Salvation comes first, then we have the power to repent.you can not ask a dead guy to walk, (only God can do that).

 

[Wormwood]

Even if faith is a unilateral gift of God (which none of those verses teach that you quote and I could quote a dozen that emphasize the importance of human response), this still doesn't mean that this gift is irresistible. In any event, what does that have to do with the video. Do you really buy the notion that the Bible teaches universalism or that faith is a work? This guy is not arguing for the Calvinism you are defending here you know.

 

[Dodo_David]

Uh, the expression "faith in your faith" is something promoted by Word Faith teachers. it isn't biblical.

 

[lukethreesix]

you guys have laid the burden of salvation upon man. salvation is of God (His doing), not mans. The reason Christ bore the burden is because if left up to man no one would ever be saved. this is what the Pharisees did, give people a list of things THEY NEED TO DO before God can save them. GOD DID EVERYTHING because we have nothing in ourselves. If we can muster up the faith and the will power to turn from our sins without God, then what did Jesus save us from? Gabriel told Joseph and Mary that Jesus would save people from sin. You guys say people need to save themselves from sin first, then Jesus will save them from God? Thats messed up!

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Is faith a gift from God or is it something we must conjure up within our totally depraved souls?

.
You have asked a good question .... I will give it some thought and maybe reply again later .... your questions are similar to what i have asked myself from time to time.

I have a very strong faith .... always have ..... but often I recognize my faith is more about my faith (never wavering) .... that it is about total faith in God (Christ)

Yet the two are intertwined .... I think it is designed that way

Because I am so far from perfect , I find it hard to accept Jesus will not waver on his promises to me .... yet deep down I have faith he will see me through to the end.

It is a conundrum faced by most Christians..... even the OT saints and prophets who walked and talked with God had their own doubts .... we are not alone in our uncertainties.

 

[UppsalaDragby]

you guys have laid the burden of salvation upon man. salvation is of God (His doing), not mans. The reason Christ bore the burden is because if left up to man no one would ever be saved. this is what the Pharisees did, give people a list of things THEY NEED TO DO before God can save them. GOD DID EVERYTHING because we have nothing in ourselves. If we can muster up the faith and the will power to turn from our sins without God, then what did Jesus save us from? Gabriel told Joseph and Mary that Jesus would save people from sin. You guys say people need to save themselves from sin first, then Jesus will save them from God? Thats messed up!

What makes you think you can pit one against the other?

"Do two walk together unless they have agreed to do so?" (Amos 3:3)

All you and the guy in the video are doing is boiliing God's word down to simplistic elements and playing games of logic with them. In many cases the logic is self-defeating. Let me ask you something, if I do something against God's will, such as receiving salvation, how is that God's failure, rather than my own?

 

[williemac]

This debate can be easily deflated by the understanding that faith is not the qualification for life, as is being assumed in the discussion.

It is merely the method by which life is received. Therefore, grace is not a reward for faith. So this whole theory that God gives faith first, is irrelevant. We are not saved by faith. When Paul said we are justified by faith, that actually means 'by way of' faith. It is not our faith that justifies us. We are justified by God. This is received by faith. It is given by grace, that is, by way of a free gift.

In terms of qualification, the bible says that God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud. Read Luke 18:10-14, and see that the man who went away justified was he who humbled himself. There is no indication that God gives saving humility to anyone. If He did, then grace would come before humility.

The real issue between God and His creation is that which reflects the original offense of Lucifer. He exalted himself up to the status of God. This is the category called pride. That is the issue. Faith is not the issue. Making faith the issue is a mistake; a smoke screen; a diversion.

Sorry to rain on your parade, lukethreesix. This whole theory of total depravity is born out of false humility. In its attempt to give God all the credit, it fails to acknowledge His demand that we humble ourselves.

Depravity is not man's issue. Sin is not his issue either. It was solved at Calvary, not by man but by God. Unless a man swallows his pride and acknowledges that he is lost apart from God's mercy, he will remain lost. Jesus said he who seeks to save his life will lose it. God resists the proud. He gives grace to the humble. Faith is irrelevant apart from humility. Apart from humility, faith doesn't even come into play.

 

[aspen]

Look I am not normally a fan of a reductionistic gospel preached by fundamentalists, but after listening to this jumbled, mental gymnastic event, I am reconsidering my opinion.

I am left wondering what the value of questioning a persons faith - whether it is faith in their own faith or the right kind of faith? Sorry, but I do not think we can always know moment by moment if our faith thermostat is adjusted perfectly to God or if we are missing the mark. And trying to make the determination every moment of the day is not movement towards intimacy and vulnerability before God - it is neurotic and a sure road to self doubt and self monitoring.

I have run into similar methods of driving yourself crazy within the Mormon Church - in their version, they advise you to read the Book of Mormon and feel if it is true - apparently, thinking will only hold you back.....then, if you receive a burning in the bosom, you will know that God is speaking to you about the truth of Joseph Smith's testimony. So my question to the missionaries is 'we all have feelings that well up inside us - how do you know it is from God and not simply wish fulfillment?' Their response is that this is a special, one-of-a-kind feeling that cannot be duplicated or denied.......

Now, if this 'special' gift of faith in the case of the tube video, or the special burning in the bosom were really unique, we would not be able to understand what they were - who knows? It could be perceived as painful and land us in the hospital or a psych ward. In my experience, God doesn't work this way - instead, He meets us where we are at - Jesus spoke the culture and language of the people He witnessed to during His life time.

Every human has confirming feelings and every human has faith - it is part of our human experience. It is not unique to Christians or Mormons. God may use these vehicles to get our attention, but we are simply not very good at determining God speaking to use from the indigestion, even on our best days....

This shortfall has lead to all kinds of weird, distorted, and misguided calls for devotion to doctrine at the expenses of transformation.

Here is the bottom line, Jesus is not going to recognize you if you appear before Him still wearing your fig leaves from the Garden. We are called to throw off the Old Man and live a life of vulnerability before God and your neighbor - dissecting doctrine is optional, as long as your musings are not used recklessly to dismantle another persons walk with Christ.

 

[lukethreesix]

Sorry to rain on your parade, lukethreesix. This whole theory of total depravity is born out of false humility. In its attempt to give God all the credit, it fails to acknowledge His demand that we humble ourselves. - williemac

"an attempt to give God all the credit"? Are you suggesting He shouldn't? God deserves ALL the credit, not you.

 

[UppsalaDragby]

God deserves ALL the credit, not you.

That sounds very pious, but why does God commend people of faith (Hebrews 11)? God, throught the Holy Spirit, actually gives credit to humans.

 

[lukethreesix]

we are not Gods equal partners, we are his servants(slaves).
Eph 2:8-9, BY GRACE we are saved, through faith THAT IS NOT OF YOURSELVES but is a gift from GOD.

I cant believe my ears, you people are actually crediting yourselves for your salvation. Boast much?

 

[Wormwood]

you guys have laid the burden of salvation upon man. salvation is of God (His doing), not mans. The reason Christ bore the burden is because if left up to man no one would ever be saved. this is what the Pharisees did, give people a list of things THEY NEED TO DO before God can save them.

Once again, faith is not a work. Such thinking is counter to everything written in the NT. Classifying faith as a work by which people strive to receive merit is completely foreign to anything taught in the NT.

Scriptures that show that faith is not a work.

“Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,” (Romans 4:4–5, ESV)

“Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?” (Galatians 3:2, ESV)

“Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.”” (Galatians 3:11–12, ESV)

Scriptures that show the necessity of faith to receive grace and salvation.

“For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened.” (Hebrews 4:2, ESV)

“Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!” (2 Corinthians 13:5, ESV)

“That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.” (Romans 11:20, ESV)

“And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.” (Colossians 1:21–23, ESV)

“for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. (Romans 3:23–25a, ESV)

“Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.” (Romans 5:2, ESV)

 

[lukethreesix]

No body is saying that faith isn't necessary? IT IS VERY NECESSARY!!! But it is "NOT of yourselves", it is given, as a gift, to us by the grace of God. Can it be any clearer?

 

[ScottAU]

"no one seeks God, no not one" "mans heart is deceitful above all things" "you dont choose me, I choose you" " you are saved BY grace through faith that is NOT of yourselves but it IS A GIFT from God."
We are dead (spiritually) without Christ. a dead person can not repent. a dead person can not do anything unless he is first made alive. God does the changing of hearts, God awakens spirits. Salvation comes first, then we have the power to repent.you can not ask a dead guy to walk, (only God can do that).

How did the prodigal son repent?

How did the people of Ninveh repent?


It is a deception to believe that one must be born again before one can repent as it gives an individual an excuse to keep on sinning.

God told Cain to rule over his sin and Cain did not heed God's advice. All human beings has the ability to do good or evil and of course it is through the grace of God because the light of conscience is given us directly from God.

This notion that people have to wait for some kind of grace which offsets human inability before they can forsake their wickedness is nonsense. Both the Old Testament and the New command people to forsake their evil ways.

Once again, faith is not a work. Such thinking is counter to everything written in the NT. Classifying faith as a work by which people strive to receive merit is completely foreign to anything taught in the NT.

Scriptures that show that faith is not a work.

Scriptures that show the necessity of faith to receive grace and salvation.

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Paul called faith a work!


An obedient active faith has nothing to do with "meriting" salvation. It is merely a condition which must be met for a genuiine salvation experience to take place.

Noah did not "merit" his salvation from the flood by obeying God and building the ark, he simply cooperated with the methodology of God. If there is no "working together" with God then the grace of God is received to no effect. The "working together" with God is faith.

2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

When the Bible says that we are saved by grace through faith it means that we are saved by yielding ourselves to the lead of God whereby the light of God manifests through us bringing a total transformation. This is why the Bible states that God is the author of the salvation of those who obey Him. Faith is an active dynamic, it is not passive trust.

Hebrews 11 clearly depicts faith as an active dynamic. Genuine faith is exhibited by doing hence faith without doing is dead.

By working together with God (2Cor 6:1) we are "made the righteousness of God in Him" (2Cor 5:21) and it is this dynamic methodology which produces a total transformation which is the gift of God.



The lie in modern theology is that salvation is an abstract position disconnected from manifest purity of heart. Thus under the lie people are deceived into believing they are saved when they are in fact still inwardly wicked. Satan wants people to come to an assurance that they are saved without them having truly repented of their rebellion. It is the very first lie repackaged for the modern age, "Ye can sin and not surely die." That lie is preached almost universally and millions upon millions of people have bought into it hook, line and sinker.

 

[UppsalaDragby]

Great post Scott!

I think there is a lot of confusion about what "works" are, especially when people, not mentioning any names, get overly dogmatic about certain scriptures and ignore the rest. Works such as those based on an external legal system and that are done with the motivation of increasing one's justification before God are based on human effort. Works that are a product of faith and done under the guidance of the Holy Spirit are based on a relationship with God.

Who is it that does the work?

"For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." (Eph 2:10)

I think perhaps our friend lukethreesix missed the verse I posted earlier on:

"Do two walk together unless they have agreed do do so?" (Amos 3:3)

God inspires. We work!

we are not Gods equal partners, we are his servants(slaves).

How can we be God's slaves if we don't do anything?

I cant believe my ears, you people are actually crediting yourselves for your salvation. Boast much?

No, God is doing the boasting, I am simply acknowledging his boast.

 

[Dan57]

Is faith a gift from God or is it something we must conjure up within our totally depraved souls?

Why do you believe something? Is belief a mandate from God, or is it a choice that begins from within an individual?

Imo, faith is simply acting upon something that we've freely chosen to believe. First hope, then belief, then faith.

The substance of our faith is not conjured up, but rooted in a Truth provided by God and accepted by us.

I believe God calls whom He will, and I believe God can increase our faith via the Holy Spirit, but I also believe that the initial choice to believe in Him emanates from within every individuals heart.