Faith in Christ or Faith in our faith.

[ScottAU]

In Romans 7:25 (ESV), the Apostle Paul says, "So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin."
In that verse, Paul is speaking in the present tense.

Yes of course he is. The flesh will always serve the law of sin and this is why it has to be crucified once and for all where the body of sin is destroyed. It is through dying WITH Christ that we are set free from sin whereby we can then walk according to the Spirit where we no longer fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

You are teaching the opposite and referring to Bible verses out of context as proof texts.

You claim that sin will reign when Paul says the opposite...

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

We are to not yield ourselves to unrighteousness...

Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Sin does not have dominion over us and therefore we are not to serve it. Those who serve sin are the slaves of sin.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

How much clearer can Paul be? He goes on...

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

Paul's flesh was crucified. Paul has died to sin. Therefore the flesh that served sin was no longer active for its deeds were put to death by the Spirit...

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

How can anyone seriously use Romans 7 to defend ongoing sin in salvation baffles me. To do so one has to ignore the rest of the Bible.

 

[lukethreesix]

But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name--
13Who owe their birth neither to bloods nor to the will of the flesh [that of physical impulse] nor to the will of man [that of a natural father], but to God. [They are born of God!]

Notice: we who recieve him are rewarded with Power and Authority, becoming Children of God. It was also NOT the will of any man, but of GOD. I see "salvation" different than reigning with Christ. We "elect" chosen by Gods will, not our own, are those few laborers to help bring in the great harvest.

 

[williemac]

But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name--
13Who owe their birth neither to bloods nor to the will of the flesh [that of physical impulse] nor to the will of man [that of a natural father], but to God. [They are born of God!]

Notice: we who recieve him are rewarded with Power and Authority, becoming Children of God. It was also NOT the will of any man, but of GOD. I see "salvation" different than reigning with Christ. We "elect" chosen by Gods will, not our own, are those few laborers to help bring in the great harvest.

You are simply confusing the use of the word 'will' in that passage with free will. The better understanding would be what we would call 'will power'. They are not the same. One is about the ability to change or produce life, which we do not have, the other the ability to choose, or in this case, respond, thus receiving life. One is proactive, the other reactive.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Please watch this video and discuss....Faith is a gift, given to us by God when He decides to give it. Are we saved by Christ and his work on the cross, or are we saved by our own will power to believe? Great video, enjoy!

Salvation is something structured by God and done for his own reasons

Jesus Christ fulfilled His part of that plan

For us to be saved we must fulfill our part

Please stop trying to confuse the issue.

Confusion does not come from God

Thank you


.

 

[lukethreesix]

I'm sorry Arnie, but to make us equal partners with the Almighty is the most confusing thing there is. How can He be Almighty if our will is the greatest power in the universe?

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

I'm sorry Arnie, but to make us equal partners with the Almighty is the most confusing thing there is. How can He be Almighty if our will is the greatest power in the universe?

.
Where did I say we were equal partners with the Almighty ?


Stop playing tricks with words !!!

 

[lukethreesix]

"God does his PART, and we do our PART." Arnie, dude! If God can't do something, but must depend upon us to do it, how can we call Him "Almighty"?

 

[UppsalaDragby]

"God does his PART, and we do our PART." Arnie, dude! If God can't do something, but must depend upon us to do it, how can we call Him "Almighty"?

Can God lie?

 

[lukethreesix]

I can think of two times God said He was going to do something, but then didn't do it. I'm not sure we can call it lying? He tells Noah "I am going to destroy the earth and everything in it." He didn't say, "unless you can talk Me out of it", no, He said He would but then didn't. Also with Jonah, He said, "in 40 days I will destroy the city" but then didn't. He didn't say "unless they repent", He said He would, then didn't. And I am glad God changes His mind.

 

[UppsalaDragby]

Well doesn't Hebrews 6:18 say that it is impossible for God to lie?

So either your understanding of these verses is lacking, or God is in fact a liar.

Which is it?

 

[aspen]

Luke36

God wants a relationship with us. All relationships require participation by all parties involved. We are created and God is the creator, but we are living beings and therefore must contribute to the relationship. This fact, does not mean that God is less than omnipotent if He allows us to participate - Nor is He offended if we take some ownership in the relationship. A father who gives His child some money to buy him a Christmas present is teaching the child love and generosity and allowing the child to feel the joy of giving - he is not showing the world that he is incapable of buying himself a present.

 

[lukethreesix]

I like that Aspen.

 

[Madad21]

Hebrews 11:1-2,39



Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised

What were the Ancients commended for? and what had they not yet received that made their faith so incredible?
If a man cannot have faith apart from Gods will, then what worth is it to God?
God gives us the will to choose, we can be our own god or we can choose to believe in the God of the Bible, and when we do we are given the gift of the Holy Spirit and only after that can a man bare fruit in keeping with the grace he has been shown. Works of the Spirit only come after an individuals statement of faith never before, because we can do nothing in our own power.
No, we give of ourselves and show God faith and only then are we blessed with the Spirit of God and our faith like a mustard seed being one of the tiniest seeds in the world like the faith in we show in our own power is watered with the Spirit of God and grows in to one of the biggest trees on the planet.
Abraham showed faith and then he was counted as righteous.
so we to of our own power show faith and then are made righteous.
We are given the Spirit to encourage and guide us, but what good is it to a man who is lazy and does not seek after the Lord. Grace is given but his faith is dead (Jesus speaks of this and so does James)
When we work in the power of the Spirit we store up for ourselves treasures in heaven, but we have to do the work ourselves by the faith we have, if we nuture the Spirit the Spirit grows our faith and our works become greater, we can bare much fruit. But by our own lazyiness and lack of faith we can squash the Spirit and starve the Spirit, what then of the fruit we bare? And what of our inheritance in heaven.

Our faith comes from our own power to exercise it, The Spirit is the Water that makes it grow.
In heaven we are paid out the wages of our work.

I say dont have Faith in your own faith, but have faith in Jesus who has plucked you out of the fire and given you life everlasting. Keep your eye on that no matter what anybody tries to tell you and seek God always. Exercise your faith everyday Jesus wont do it for you. And your reward will be great.

Much love Mike

 

[lukethreesix]

"If a man cannot have faith apart from Gods will, then what worth is it to God?" - Mike

We cannot exist apart from Gods will, so what is our worth?
We cannot choose to be born, life is a gift from God. Its not a choice.
I can't believe how many Christian think they are the masters of their salvation?
I personally don't think anyone can stop sinning (repent) unless first receiving grace (the Spirit of truth).
Look at the adulterous woman: did Jesus say, "go sin no more, than I will not condemn you" OR did he give her FIRST salvation (grace, the Spirit of Truth) which is what empowered her to go and sin no more.
We are all DEAD without Christ. Dead people can do nothing of their own power, they have no power.
The only way a person can have power over the flesh is by the Spirit.
If we can turn from our sin and follow Jesus without Gods Spirit, than what are we being saved from?
Gabriel told Joseph Jesus would save us from our sin.
Jesus saves us from our sin, not from our Father!

 

[Madad21]

"If a man cannot have faith apart from Gods will, then what worth is it to God?" - Mike

We cannot exist apart from Gods will, so what is our worth?
We cannot choose to be born, life is a gift from God. Its not a choice.
I can't believe how many Christian think they are the masters of their salvation?
I personally don't think anyone can stop sinning (repent) unless first receiving grace (the Spirit of truth).
Look at the adulterous woman: did Jesus say, "go sin no more, than I will not condemn you" OR did he give her FIRST salvation (grace, the Spirit of Truth) which is what empowered her to go and sin no more.
We are all DEAD without Christ. Dead people can do nothing of their own power, they have no power.
The only way a person can have power over the flesh is by the Spirit.
If we can turn from our sin and follow Jesus without Gods Spirit, than what are we being saved from?
Gabriel told Joseph Jesus would save us from our sin.
Jesus saves us from our sin, not from our Father!

I can't believe how many Christian think they are the masters of their salvation?

When did I say that?

Of course its God will we exist, but dont confuse the gift off life given to all men just by merely existing as Gods control over our minds.
Adam and Eve were in a paradise on earth when they chose of their own free will to sin regardless of what the serpent said to convince them.
So why cant men chose of their own free will to believe regardless of how much God wants them?
Can you make someone love you?
God can jump in front of a man all his life but that man is not going to believe unless he chooses too.

For God gave his only begotten Son
So that all who BELIEVE in him shall have everlasting life.
It doesnt say
So only those who God wills shall have everlasting life.

Jesus provides the salvation, its up to you to accept it.
A man can not save himself out side of the Salvation of Christ, but a man can certainly choose to deny it.

As a christian if something bad happens in your life are you likely to say that God willed for that thing to happen to you?
Or would you say that he allowed it to happen.

There is a difference between "Willing" and "Allowing"

Did he go out of his way to plan and make somthing bad happen to you? of course not.
Does he use his will in your life to rise above what has happened and turn it into a victory? of course.

But

Do you spend your time saying "I gave my life to you how can you let this thing happen" and let yourself grow more resentful everyday being a victim and blaming God.
Or
Do you decide to trust in the promises of God and work with in his will to rise above it and thus have victory over it?

We have a choice in all thing we do, If we work in with in Gods will we have made the conscience choice to give up our lives to Christ and live in obedience to God which is the beginning of wisdom.
If we choose not too, we will always struggle with fear and doubt "Like a wave of the sea blown and tossed by the wind" (James 1:6)

 

[lukethreesix]

Adam and Eve didn't have "knowledge" so how could they have chosen.
"we" who have Knowlegde, do have the choice to sin or follow God.
But those who have no knowledge can't choose, how can you ask someone to choose between things they don't know?
Salvation comes first. Christ died while we were still sinners. He saved us 2,000 years ago. And in His timing He will reveal Himself.
Look at Paul, God had to knock him off his horse. And show Himself to him, speak the truth. Paul didn't know the truth (1 Tim 1:13) until Jesus (in His timing) gave him the truth.
I am desperately trying to burst your bubble of boasting in your own ability to stop sinning.
Faith is a gift. Life is a gift. "eternal" life is a gift.
Do we have choices? Yes. Whatever _God has put on our menu we can choose from.
But if its not on the menu, its not our choice to make.
Many things (including life itself) is not on the menu.
Was the tree of life on the menu? maybe at first. But without knowledge, we can't rightly choose.
This is why God took the tree of life off the menu (Gen 3:24), untill (rev 22:2) when man has the full knowledge of Christ and can willingly and knowingly choose.
Notice, after the judgment (where there is knowledge and correction), those who were cast into the lake of fire, are standing outside the open gates of heaven (rev 22:15) being invited inside (rev 22:17) to take the water of life.
The gospel never ceases to be preached and the invitation will never end untill God becomes all in all.(1 Cor 15:19-28)

 

[Madad21]

Adam and Eve didn't have "knowledge" so how could they have chosen.
"we" who have Knowlegde, do have the choice to sin or follow God.
But those who have no knowledge can't choose, how can you ask someone to choose between things they don't know?
Salvation comes first. Christ died while we were still sinners. He saved us 2,000 years ago. And in His timing He will reveal Himself.
Look at Paul, God had to knock him off his horse. And show Himself to him, speak the truth. Paul didn't know the truth (1 Tim 1:13) until Jesus (in His timing) gave him the truth.
I am desperately trying to burst your bubble of boasting in your own ability to stop sinning.
Faith is a gift. Life is a gift. "eternal" life is a gift.
Do we have choices? Yes. Whatever _God has put on our menu we can choose from.
But if its not on the menu, its not our choice to make.
Many things (including life itself) is not on the menu.
Was the tree of life on the menu? maybe at first. But without knowledge, we can't rightly choose.
This is why God took the tree of life off the menu (Gen 3:24), untill (rev 22:2) when man has the full knowledge of Christ and can willingly and knowingly choose.
Notice, after the judgment (where there is knowledge and correction), those who were cast into the lake of fire, are standing outside the open gates of heaven (rev 22:15) being invited inside (rev 22:17) to take the water of life.
The gospel never ceases to be preached and the invitation will never end untill God becomes all in all.(1 Cor 15:19-28)

Hi lukethreesix nice to meet you

You said-Adam and Eve didn't have "knowledge" so how could they have chosen.
Genesis 2:16-17 (NKJV) And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

You said-"Salvation comes first. Christ died while we were still sinners. He saved us 2,000 years ago. And in His timing He will reveal Himself."
Im not sure where your going with this one sorry, I dont see how that goes against what I said maybe you can elaborate.

You said-"I am desperately trying to burst your bubble of boasting in your own ability to stop sinning."
Im not sure where you got that from anything i said, maybe you can show me where I said somthing to that effect

You said -"Do we have choices? Yes. Whatever _God has put on our menu we can choose from".
Do you think Satan puts things on our menus too?

You said -"But if its not on the menu, its not our choice to make."
Ask Christ in your life, dont ask Christ into your life, murder, rape, giving to the needy, wind surfing, committing suicide etc, etc etc are we not free to choose to do all those things where does the menu run out (1 Corinthians 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful for me, but not all things edify.

You said -"Was the tree of life on the menu? maybe at first. But without knowledge, we can't rightly choose.
This is why God took the tree of life off the menu (Gen 3:24), untill (rev 22:2) when man has the full knowledge of Christ and can willingly and knowingly choose.
Notice, after the judgment (where there is knowledge and correction), those who were cast into the lake of fire, are standing outside the open gates of heaven (rev 22:15) being invited inside (rev 22:17) to take the water of life.
The gospel never ceases to be preached and the invitation will never end untill God becomes all in all.(1 Cor 15:19-28)

Sorry Im not sure where your going with that.

 

[lukethreesix]

- Adam had no (real, full) knowledge until he ate the fruit.

- Christ was Gods plan to bring the entire kosmos into perfect, and He will.

- repentance is not something a (spiritually) dead person can do.

- Satan may write the menu, but only by the Chefs permission.

- our menu is EXTREMELY limited: did you choose to be born? Where, when, parents, race, sex, etc...the choices you think are yours: is like a chess game. Have you ever played chess with a really good player? They, by setting their peices in a particular way, can make you move exactlly how they want you too. Even though you have many choices to move, some how they always win. God can set His peices in a particular way that, even though you have the choice, you end up moving exactly how He wants you to. The entire chess board of life is Gods. He is the master!

- the tree of life was taken away out of mercy. God said, "lest they live forever". God is too merciful to allow his creation to "live forever" in a state of sin, pain and regret. But this is exactly what the church teaches about hell: they say that Gods creation will live forever in a state of sin, pain and regret. This is not true. God will reintroduce the tree of life, when mankind has learned how to choose good from evil.

 

[Madad21]

- Adam had no (real, full) knowledge until he ate the fruit.

- Christ was Gods plan to bring the entire kosmos into perfect, and He will.

- repentance is not something a (spiritually) dead person can do.

- Satan may write the menu, but only by the Chefs permission.

- our menu is EXTREMELY limited: did you choose to be born? Where, when, parents, race, sex, etc...the choices you think are yours: is like a chess game. Have you ever played chess with a really good player? They, by setting their peices in a particular way, can make you move exactlly how they want you too. Even though you have many choices to move, some how they always win. God can set His peices in a particular way that, even though you have the choice, you end up moving exactly how He wants you to. The entire chess board of life is Gods. He is the master!

- the tree of life was taken away out of mercy. God said, "lest they live forever". God is too merciful to allow his creation to "live forever" in a state of sin, pain and regret. But this is exactly what the church teaches about hell: they say that Gods creation will live forever in a state of sin, pain and regret. This is not true. God will reintroduce the tree of life, when mankind has learned how to choose good from evil.

Ok thanks Luke

 

[Dodo_David]

Yes of course he is. The flesh will always serve the law of sin and this is why it has to be crucified once and for all where the body of sin is destroyed. It is through dying WITH Christ that we are set free from sin whereby we can then walk according to the Spirit where we no longer fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

You are teaching the opposite and referring to Bible verses out of context as proof texts.

You claim that sin will reign when Paul says the opposite...

I am not claiming that sin will reign. I merely quoted what Paul said about his own behavior.

Here is what Paul says in Romans 8:10 (ESV):
"If Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness."