Faith: True and False

[marks]

The intent was to discuss the fact that the idea that faith can be valid faith or invalid faith (true or false)--which, to me, had never been proven Scripturally, but seemed to merely have been baselessly asserted--actually has Scriptural bases.

False faith . . .

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV
1) Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2) By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

False faith . . .

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV
1) Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2) By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Much love!

To me, this is a different issue--falling away--but I haven't considered it through the lens of John's Gospel. There is more, along these lines, I want to say about John's Gospel, but I'm not sure it is the right time. Maybe some other time I will mention it.

 

[marks]

1. As mentioned in my preface, I don't take James 2 as referring to true and false faith.

I'm not sure I really agree with saying, "false faith", as I don't see those words used. Believing in vain, or "empty faith" seems to be the Biblical terminology.

James puts it this way,

James 2:17-20 KJV
17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

"Dead faith" Or faith without works, leading back to the term empty faith, or "believing in vain".

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

We seem to be using "faith" to describe a couple of different things.

The faith I speak of is this faith:

John 1:10-13 KJV
10) He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11) He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Believe . . . receive . . . be born of God . . . born again.

Much love!

Before, I didn't think so--because I'd seen no evidence for it--but, now, I think it is possible that, in Scripture, "believe" can refer to an invalid belief or a valid belief.

The issue of "become a child of God" is also complicated...

 

[marks]

To me, this is a different issue--falling away--but I haven't considered it through the lens of John's Gospel. There is more, along these lines, I want to say about John's Gospel, but I'm not sure it is the right time. Maybe some other time I will mention it.

He's not talking about falling away from a real faith, he's talking about those having a meaningless faith.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

He's not talking about falling away from a real faith, he's talking about those having a meaningless faith.

Much love!

See, that's why I was hesitant to share this tidbit--I know it's going to add ammunition against my views. LOL But why should I protect myself? And I think it really has edified me to get into the conversations and to consider the things that have been brought to consideration through the posting of it.

 

[GracePeace]

He's not talking about falling away from a real faith, he's talking about those having a meaningless faith.

Much love!

I think I hold to a paradox: I believe that if you are truly saved, you can't lose it, and you're supposed to believe in that, and rest, AND those who are truly saved and lose it are accounted as never having been saved, which, in a way, actually goes back to the original point (if you're truly saved, you can't lose it... and those who do are accounted as having never been saved, blotted out).

It's like quantum physics--counterintuitive, nonsensical, paradoxical, but true (because there is evidence (mathematical and/or experimental) that shows it--and, in this case, there is evidence for both views in Scripture IMO) nonetheless.

But the practical application and the whole point of believing that is to rest.

 

[marks]

He's not talking about falling away from a real faith, he's talking about those having a meaningless faith.

Much love!

Read the passage, and go laugh at Paul.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

Read the passage, and go laugh at Paul.

Much love!

I'm laughing at the situation, not at your explanation (as if it is "silly").

 

[Ritajanice]

He's not talking about falling away from a real faith, he's talking about those having a meaningless faith.

Much love!

What’s a real faith?

For me real faith is Alive and Active?

Faith from God is a manifestation of the Spirit?..therefore Alive and Active in us.

Holy Spirit: Manifestation of gifts
1 Cor.12.4
There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
The Father is the source of all spiritual gifts, and they are released to us through His Spirit (James 1.17). Spiritual gifts are the manifestations of the Holy Spirit upon our lives for the edification of the Church (1 Cor 12.7). Some of these gifts include the word of knowledge, the word of wisdom, the gift of faith, the discerning of spirits, the gift of speaking diverse tongues, etc.

 

[GracePeace]

I'm not sure I really agree with saying, "false faith", as I don't see those words used. Believing in vain, or "empty faith" seems to be the Biblical terminology.

James puts it this way,

James 2:17-20 KJV
17) Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

"Dead faith" Or faith without works, leading back to the term empty faith, or "believing in vain".

Much love!

Yeah, I only used the term "false" to accommodate those who do use that term, but I would not use it--certainly not in the past, before I even knew that the concept did seem to be taught in Scripture--and I already addressed why I don't think James 2 can be referring to the invalid faith taught about in John's Gospel, but, really, I don't want to discuss James 2.

 

[GracePeace]

I think I hold to a paradox: I believe that if you are truly saved, you can't lose it, and you're supposed to believe in that, and rest, AND those who are truly saved and lose it are accounted as never having been saved, which, in a way, actually goes back to the original point (if you're truly saved, you can't lose it... and those who do are accounted as having never been saved, blotted out).

It's like quantum physics--counterintuitive, nonsensical, paradoxical, but true (because there is evidence (mathematical and/or experimental) that shows it--and, in this case, there is evidence for both views in Scripture IMO) nonetheless.

But the practical application and the whole point of believing that is to rest.

@marks In other words, it's as valid to simply say, "If you've believed, and are saved, you won't fall away," as it is to say the same thing, but using all those other details. Lol

 

[GracePeace]

Read the passage, and go laugh at Paul.

Much love!

I'm going to play devil's advocate again : since we're not provided with any other material/examples to go on (to apply it to), you could describe those branches that do continue to abide in the Vine as precisely these individuals who seem to be going along with the program, but, ultimately, prove they never really were Christ's to begin with.

 

[marks]

@marks In other words, it's as valid to simply say, "If you've believed, and are saved, you won't fall away," as it is to say the same thing, but using all those other details. Lol

OK, so then you Do believe that someone who is regenerate will never become unregenerate? That is, rebirth is forever? Yes? And rebirth is what happens when we are "saved"? So that there is no "losing salvation"? Are we agreed?

Much love!

 

[marks]

I'm going to play devil's advocate again : since we're not provided with any other material/examples to go on (to apply it to), you could describe those branches that do continue to abide in the Vine as precisely these individuals who seem to be going along with the program, but, ultimately, prove they never really were Christ's to begin with.

Branches, in John, are you referring to John 15?

You have three branches there, two that are "in Christ", and one that is not. The one that is not - does not abide in Christ. These that do, if they do not bear fruit, the Father carries them away. Those who do bear fruit the Father prunes, so they will bear more fruit.

Those that abide in Christ are His, those that do not abide in Him are not His. Saved, and unsaved. Regenerate, and not regenerate.

Much love!

 

[GracePeace]

OK, so then you Do believe that someone who is regenerate will never become unregenerate? That is, rebirth is forever? Yes? And rebirth is what happens when we are "saved"? So that there is no "losing salvation"? Are we agreed?

Much love!

With more details and provisos, but effectively and substantively, I should not be able to disagree with that.

 

[GracePeace]

Branches, in John, are you referring to John 15?

You have three branches there, two that are "in Christ", and one that is not. The one that is not - does not abide in Christ. These that do, if they do not bear fruit, the Father carries them away. Those who do bear fruit the Father prunes, so they will bear more fruit.

Those that abide in Christ are His, those that do not abide in Him are not His. Saved, and unsaved. Regenerate, and not regenerate.

Much love!

Again, I was playing devil's advocate--there are valid arguments against it, but there are valid arguments for it (eg, the one I presented).

 

[GracePeace]

Branches, in John, are you referring to John 15?

You have three branches there, two that are "in Christ", and one that is not. The one that is not - does not abide in Christ. These that do, if they do not bear fruit, the Father carries them away. Those who do bear fruit the Father prunes, so they will bear more fruit.

Those that abide in Christ are His, those that do not abide in Him are not His. Saved, and unsaved. Regenerate, and not regenerate.

Much love!

Did you know that pruning actually stimulates growth?
I have an apricot tree, and have looked in to it, and spoken with master gardeners about it.

 

[marks]

Did you know that pruning actually stimulates growth?
I have an apricot tree, and have looked in to it, and spoken with master gardeners about it.

Yes, the non-producing branches are still using the plant's resources. Remove the non-producing part so the producing part can have the nourishment.

And when God prunes us, the time and energy and resources we were using for ourselves become available for His works.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Again, I was playing devil's advocate--there are valid arguments against it, but there are valid arguments for it (eg, the one I presented).

Truth is not self-contradictory. Use the unambiguous (can only be read one way) to understand the ambiguous (can be read more than one way).

Much love!