Faithful and Just to Forgive . . .

[CharismaticLady]

The reason the Hyper-Grace movement is so dangerous is because it is teaching the believer they no longer have need to repent of any sin they might do after having believed on Christ Jesus and been baptized. Since they interpret NT Scripture to mean we can't sin anymore after believing on Jesus Christ and baptized, often they also do away with the concept of repentance after that altogether.

I see "hyper-grace" as having no power over sin, so we commit them and they are automatically forgiven as soon as we commit them. HERESY.

No longer repenting isn't hyper-grace. Once you've repented and Jesus has forgiven you of your past sins, He also takes care of future sins by giving us a new nature that won't commit them in the first place. It is called being born again. It was the carnal flesh that sins. If we have the Spirit, we are NOT IN THE FLESH but in the Spirit. Romans 8:9 When Romans 8 says Jesus condemned sin in the flesh, it means He kills the desire to sin and takes us out of the old carnal nature.

God hates sin, and no sinner will go to heaven. Jesus came to equip us to be perfect and sinless by giving us His Own Holy Spirit. Revelation 22:11

 

[bbyrd009]

dont worry, no ones actually going anywhere special anyway.
All go to the same place
You and your sons will be here with me
No one has ever gone up to heaven
There is only One Immortal
right

 

[Davy]

Jesus told them, Depart from Me ye that work iniquity. That's what their works really were. Lawlessness. Not the works of righteousness.

Much love!

You're making excuses. That's wrong.

Matt 7:22
22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord', have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
KJV

Those works in red are the 'works of righteousness'. To deny that is to be deceived.

 

[Davy]

OK, well, I'm not a part of all that then.

I hope you're not, but the one's really behind the movement are.

Seeking perfection in the flesh is the main desire of Satan's children of darkness during this present world. Eve's sin involved the lusts of the flesh, yet Satan's temptation also involved the claim of knowledge of good and evil making one become a god. Can one in the flesh truly become... a god? To understand this sin of thinking that we can be perfect in this flesh, the believer should ask their self that question.

 

[CharismaticLady]

You're making excuses. That's wrong.

Matt 7:22
22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord', have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
KJV

Those works in red are the 'works of righteousness'. To deny that is to be deceived.

No, Davy, even though Christians cast out demons and can prophesy, if they commit willful sin then what good does all their works of righteous do them? They returned to their own vomit. Even though the gifts of God are irrevocable, you can still fall off the path to salvation and that is when Jesus will say to you "I never knew you, you worker of iniquity." It is more than just claiming that Jesus is Lord, you must abide in Him.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I hope you're not, but the one's really behind the movement are.

Seeking perfection in the flesh is the main desire of Satan's children of darkness during this present world. Eve's sin involved the lusts of the flesh, yet Satan's temptation also involved the claim of knowledge of good and evil making one become a god. Can one in the flesh truly become... a god? To understand this sin of thinking that we can be perfect in this flesh, the believer should ask their self that question.

Don't you know that being a child of God is partaking of the divine nature? If a Christian doesn't sin, that is NOT of Satan. What a thing to say?

 

[Davy]

I see "hyper-grace" as having no power over sin, so we commit them and they are automatically forgiven as soon as we commit them. HERESY.

No longer repenting isn't hyper-grace. Once you've repented and Jesus has forgiven you of your past sins, He also takes care of future sins by giving us a new nature that won't commit them in the first place. It is called being born again. It was the carnal flesh that sins. If we have the Spirit, we are NOT IN THE FLESH but in the Spirit. Romans 8:9 When Romans 8 says Jesus condemned sin in the flesh, it means He kills the desire to sin and takes us out of the old carnal nature.

God hates sin, and no sinner will go to heaven. Jesus came to equip us to be perfect and sinless by giving us His Own Holy Spirit. Revelation 22:11

Well, you kind of rejected the idea of not needing future repentance of sin in the beginning of your post, and then you did a kind of turn around.

Even after believing on Jesus Christ and baptized, we still will... commit sin. That is was one of Apostle John's specific points in 1 John 1...

1 John 1:9-10
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
KJV

You still... sin in your flesh today, whether you care to admit it or not. It's simply the way God setup this present world so His Salvation would be to those who believe on His Son Jesus Christ Who only was 'literally' perfect while in the flesh. If we could be then we would not need what He did on the cross for us. Thus the Hyper-Grace movement creates a trap of a lie upon itself, because the idea of 'perfection in the flesh' applied to ourselves negates what Jesus did on His cross.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Well, you kind of rejected the idea of not needing future repentance of sin in the beginning of your post, and then you did a kind of turn around.

Even after believing on Jesus Christ and baptized, we still will... commit sin. That is was one of Apostle John's specific points in 1 John 1...

1 John 1:9-10
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
KJV

You still... sin in your flesh today, whether you care to admit it or not. It's simply the way God setup this present world so His Salvation would be to those who believe on His Son Jesus Christ Who only was 'literally' perfect while in the flesh. If we could be then we would not need what He did on the cross for us. Thus the Hyper-Grace movement creates a trap of a lie upon itself, because the idea of 'perfection in the flesh' applied to ourselves negates what Jesus did on His cross.

Your common belief that 1 John 1:8 and 10 is a Christian is out of context and untrue. It goes along with what Paul taught. BEFORE CHRIST all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. No one is born without sin, so we all need to repent and accept Christ. That is 1 John 1:9 - how to become a Christian. You are not born a Christian, you are born a sinner and must repent. To say you have never sinned makes you a liar.

 

[Davy]

No, Davy, even though Christians cast out demons and can prophesy, if they commit willful sin then what good does all their works of righteous do them? They returned to their own vomit. Even though the gifts of God are irrevocable, you can still fall off the path to salvation and that is when Jesus will say to you "I never knew you, you worker of iniquity." It is more than just claiming that Jesus is Lord, you must abide in Him.

You're not sticking with the Matthew 7 Scripture by that reasoning. You cannot claim the works of prophesying for Jesus, casting out devils in His name, or doing many wonderful works in His name, are sins of unrighteousness. Those things are not the "iniquity" He was pointing to. Thus those WERE believers on Him, and that was my main point.

I'm not sure you understand what possible "iniquity" is coming up for the end of this world that may be responsible for Jesus telling them to get away from Him when He returns. Apostle Paul pointed to in 2 Thess.2 about the falling away, but it appears the majority in the Church are too busy being deceived as to what that means. Compare the parable of the five foolish virgins in Matthew 25 with these in Matthew 7 and you'll have part of the answer to this.

 

[Davy]

Don't you know that being a child of God is partaking of the divine nature? If a Christian doesn't sin, that is NOT of Satan. What a thing to say?

What do you mean, what a thing to say? Are you now TRYING to put words into my mouth??? Are you now trying to bear false witness against me?? God rebuke you if you are.

I will never... agree with the Hyper-Grace movement, it is not Biblical, but only a movement by men for the deceived. And it is designed to make believers on Christ Jesus to fall away to the devil.

 

[CharismaticLady]

You're not sticking with the Matthew 7 Scripture by that reasoning. You cannot claim the works of prophesying for Jesus, casting out devils in His name, or doing many wonderful works in His name, are sins of unrighteousness. Those things are not the "iniquity" He was pointing to. Thus those WERE believers on Him, and that was my main point.

That is my point too. But you are not understanding what I said. I did not say that casting out demons were acts of unrighteousness. No. They are righteousness. Matthew is saying that even if you did all these wonderful things, but willfully commit sins of lawlessness then you ARE lawless. Jesus has given us the power to NOT SIN by giving us His Spirit. But we still have free will and can go against the new nature that Jesus gave us and fall back into carnality and be damned.

 

[Davy]

Your common belief that 1 John 1:8 and 10 is a Christian is out of context and untrue. It goes along with what Paul taught. BEFORE CHRIST all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. No one is born without sin, so we all need to repent and accept Christ. That is 1 John 1:9 - how to become a Christian. You are not born a Christian, you are born a sinner and must repent. To say you have never sinned makes you a liar.

Your common Grace movement belief is made up by men.

1 John 1 is easy to understand, and it is Apostle John speaking to believers on Christ Jesus!

 

[CharismaticLady]

What do you mean, what a thing to say? Are you now TRYING to put words into my mouth??? Are you now trying to bear false witness against me?? God rebuke you if you are.

I will never... agree with the Hyper-Grace movement, it is not Biblical, but only a movement by men for the deceived. And it is designed to make believers on Christ Jesus to fall away to the devil.

I'm not putting any words in your mouth that you haven't already said. You basically said trying to be perfect is of the devil. But that is a command of Jesus, so how can it be of the devil?

I don't agree with the grace movement as it is either, because of their mistaken definition of grace. It is not a license to sin.

 

[Davy]

That is my point too. But you are not understanding what I said. I did not say that casting out demons were acts of unrighteousness. No. They are righteousness. Matthew is saying that even if you did all these wonderful things, but willfully commit sins of lawlessness then you ARE lawless. Jesus has given us the power to NOT SIN by giving us His Spirit. But we still have free will and can go against the new nature that Jesus gave us and fall back into carnality and be damned.

Nah, IF... when... we commit sin after... having believed and been baptized, and refuse to repent to Jesus of it, then... we become guilty of iniquity, and our sin is NOT covered. The proof of this Paul gave also...

Rom 3:24-25
24 Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
KJV

Be careful now, for Paul was specific that our first belief on Christ's Blood shed upon His cross was for the "remission of sins that are past". That does not mean future sins, and I don't care how perfect in your flesh you think... you are. You are not, and to say so is to be guilty of what Apostle John said in 1 John 1:10.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Your common Grace movement belief is made up by men.

1 John 1 is easy to understand, and it is Apostle John speaking to believers on Christ Jesus!

Which is a Christian:

1 John 1:8 and 10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

or

1 John 3:9
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Can't you see that 1 John 1:8 and 10 go along with verse 6. They are all BEFORE Christ. They are all walking in darkness and have never been cleansed of ALL sin.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Nah, IF... when... we commit sin after... having believed and been baptized, and refuse to repent to Jesus of it, then... we become guilty of iniquity, and our sin is NOT covered. The proof of this Paul gave also...

Rom 3:24-25
24 Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
KJV

Be careful now, for Paul was specific that our first belief on Christ's Blood shed upon His cross was for the "remission of sins that are past". That does not mean future sins, and I don't care how perfect in your flesh you think... you are. You are not, and to say so is to be guilty of what Apostle John said in 1 John 1:10.

Romans 3:24-25 is talking about sins committed by His people in the Old Testament like David. However, 2 Peter 1:9 talks about our past sins being forgiven. No where does it say a Christian's present and future sins are forgiven. We are not to commit them in the first place, so no need to repent of sins your are not committing.

 

[Davy]

I'm not putting any words in your mouth that you haven't already said.

Well, yes, you kind of did. What I said was about thinking we can be literally... perfect in our flesh, which is IMPOSSIBLE. If you believe we can, then you just revealed the false Hyper-Grace theory, that you are a believer on it. Haven't you even read Galatians 3:22? We can only be 'counted' as perfect with following Christ Jesus! We will always... fall short of the glory of God...

Rom 3:23
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
KJV

You basically said trying to be perfect is of the devil. But that is a command of Jesus, so how can it be of the devil?

It's because God's Word reveals we cannot LITERALLY be perfect in our flesh. We will always fall short. Otherwise we would be our own Christs! Don't you see? Read Galatians 3:22 again.

I don't agree with the grace movement as it is either, because of their mistaken definition of grace. It is not a license to sin.

Well, as a believer on Christ Jesus, if you think you can no longer sin in your flesh, then you are already on the Hyper-Grace movement.

 

[Davy]

Which is a Christian:

1 John 1:8 and 10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

or

1 John 3:9
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Can't you see that 1 John 1:8 and 10 go along with verse 6. They are all BEFORE Christ. They are all walking in darkness and have never been cleansed of ALL sin.

No, you cannot create a division like that in 1 John 1. From the very first verse, it's clear that John is speaking to believers on Christ Jesus. You can't make an excuse to serve the Hyper-Grace theory just because you don't understand the 1 John 3:9 verse.

1 John 2:1-2
2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
KJV

Even in that above Scripture John is showing us what to do when we as believers do future sin.

1 John 2:3-6
3 And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him.
6 He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked.
KJV

Just as Paul spoke of walking by The Spirit in Gal.5, John also gives us an example with following Christ's commandments, and thus showing a walk in Him.

So the whole matter is our 'walk', and that's a day by day thing, not "well I believed already, so my walk is already done for me" type of attitude.

The key to interpreting the 1 John 3:9 verse is the following...

1 John 3:6
6 Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him.
KJV

So how... do we abide in Him?? By just 'thinking'... we can't sin anymore and thus have no need to repent to Him anymore? Certainly not! John was specific about our Lord Jesus being our Advocate to The Father for us when we sin. If a believer thinks they don't or cannot sin anymore, then they have NO Advocate in their behalf. Know what that means? It means the iniquity we might commit after having believed is NOT covered, as we have to stand before God as our own advocates! I'm sure you can fathom how that would work out.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Well, yes, you kind of did. What I said was about thinking we can be literally... perfect in our flesh, which is IMPOSSIBLE. If you believe we can, then you just revealed the false Hyper-Grace theory, that you are a believer on it. Haven't you even read Galatians 3:22? We can only be 'counted' as perfect with following Christ Jesus! We will always... fall short of the glory of God...

To be clear and to repeat myself. When we walk in the Spirit we are NOT IN THE FLESH. It is the opposite of Hyper-grace.

And now that Jesus has freed us from sin, so that we can be sinless, we can go on to perfection through these steps in 2 Peter 1:

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Davy]

Romans 3:24-25 is talking about sins committed by His people in the Old Testament like David. However, 2 Peter 1:9 talks about our past sins being forgiven. No where does it say a Christian's present and future sins are forgiven. We are not to commit them in the first place, so no need to repent of sins your are not committing.

That's silly. Paul is talking about sins ALL believers committed PRIOR to their belief on Jesus Christ. Romans 3:22 says 'all' them that believe. That means us too.