Faithful and Just to Forgive . . .

[Davy]

Could you show me the Scriptures you have in mind on this point?

Thank you!

Matt 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto Me, "Lord, Lord", shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father Which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?"
23 And then will I profess unto them, "I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."
KJV

The part above in red is pointing specifically to believers on our Lord Jesus Christ. Those who do not believe on Jesus do not go about prophesying in His name, nor do unbelievers cast out devils in His name, nor do unbelievers do many wonderful works in His name.

Matt 25:24-30
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
KJV

A slothful believer that does nothing for Him, to our Lord Jesus, is an unprofitable servant.

If one truly believes on Jesus Christ as their Saviour, they are going to do even little witnesses of their Faith to others, often as a natural working not pre-planned. To truly be in Christ is to produce fruit in Him; can't really help not producing fruit.

But a believer who just believes on Jesus and doesn't produce any fruit at all, is a slothful servant. It reveals they've only believed just to 'play it safe', just in case what all God's Word says will happen to the wicked and unbelieving is true.

 

[marks]

Matt 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto Me, "Lord, Lord", shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father Which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?"
23 And then will I profess unto them, "I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."
KJV

The part above in red is pointing specifically to believers on our Lord Jesus Christ. Those who do not believe on Jesus do not go about prophesying in His name, nor do unbelievers cast out devils in His name, nor do unbelievers do many wonderful works in His name.

Matt 25:24-30
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
KJV

A slothful believer that does nothing for Him, to our Lord Jesus, is an unprofitable servant.

If one truly believes on Jesus Christ as their Saviour, they are going to do even little witnesses of their Faith to others, often as a natural working not pre-planned. To truly be in Christ is to produce fruit in Him; can't really help not producing fruit.

But a believer who just believes on Jesus and doesn't produce any fruit at all, is a slothful servant. It reveals they've only believed just to 'play it safe', just in case what all God's Word says will happen to the wicked and unbelieving is true.

OK, so you are speaking of true believers who produce fruit, and false believers who do not, is that right?

I guess I reserve the word "believers" for those who are born again, but if you mean those who make a profession of faith without rebirth, than yes, I agree.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

Hi Cooper,

I think answer to this in in our new creation.

Many come away with the idea that understanding Grace to include total forgiveness of all past present and future sins just gives us this feeling of immunity from prosecution so we can sin willy nilly and not care.

But what I find is just the opposite. Knowing that God has fully and completely solved the sin problem for us is what allows us to realize that God NEVER pushes us away, NEVER withholds His help, and there is NEVER an occasion, no matter what! that I cannot lean on God for deliverance from whatever may be happening.

There's this feeling people get, "I don't deserve this". And when we think that's the key factor, we will not walk in faith. Our faith is shipwrecked on the thought, I can't receive blessing from God unless I deserve it. And I don't deserve it.

But that's the how point! We don't, and we cannot deserve God's help, patience, power, anything. But in Christ all is ours, and be it to you according to your faith.

My faith is that Jesus has rescued me from all sin, from the stain of sin, from the habit of sin, from the damage of sin, from the penalty of sin, He did, not me, I cannot.

My faith is that God ALWAYS relates to me according to the new reality that He created, more generated, in giving birth to me. As a son of God incarnate in a body of corrupt flesh, there always remains the possibility that if I falter in my faith, that corrupt flesh remains ready to take over. But as a son of God, I do have power in the spirit over that flesh.

That power is not used by being strong over my flesh, I'm not that good at that. However, that power is complete when I simply focus my attention on God, that He is here with me, that He loves me, that He at all times has a life for me to live, a wonderful amazing life,

And it is in the certain knowledge of my total justification in the finished work of Christ on the cross, that opens the door wide, that with the same faith that that I was born again, by this same faith in Jesus, I can enter not only into salvation, but into the grace in which I stand.

Standing in Grace - the goodnes that comes from God, His goodness that cleanses us from sin, and leads us in victory - by faith in Jesus, and not in myself.

Anything else is trying to make myself good enough to receive from God.

Will we wait to have peace until we think we deserve it? Or will we by faith receive from God.
Will we wait to walk in power until we think we deserve it? Or will we walk by faith?

So many are afraid to embrace Grace thinking that if they aren't focused on controlling their behaviour they will just run wild. While the reality is that God is the One Who sanctifies us, and if we simply look to Him in trust, that's exactly what He will do.

Much love!

Belief on the perfection of the flesh is one of the causes for thinking we have no further need to repent to Jesus of our future sins.

Some pastors try to teach that for the short period before Adam and Eve sinned, that that short period showed a time of perfection in the flesh. It is another reason why many of those pastors have a hard time understanding Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:50. They want to believe that it's possible for our flesh to become perfect without sin. Yet they also forget what Paul said in Galatians 3:22 that we have all been concluded under sin so the Promise by Faith on Jesus Christ would be only to those who believe. For this reason only our Lord Jesus was perfect while in His flesh. None others have been, nor ever will be.

As Paul also showed in Romans 5:12-13 that though sin was already in the world, sin is not imputed when there is no law, thus Adam and Eve's flesh was not perfect, because the ability to sin in their flesh was there from the start, otherwise they could never have sinned in the first place.

Our Heavenly Father and His Son well knows the temptations our fleshy existence causes, and no doubt that is why we are shown about repentance to Jesus of sin even after we have believed on Him and been baptized. He well knows we cannot literally be perfect in this flesh, that we will always fall short of the glory of God. That is why we can only be 'counted' as perfect when we are in good standing with Him.

 

[Davy]

OK, so you are speaking of true believers who produce fruit, and false believers who do not, is that right?

In the latter example of the unprofitable servant, right. That's a believer, a claimed believer.

The first example in Matthew 7 is about believers with works in Christ Jesus, so we cannot just say they weren't true believers. So it's dangerous to think that example is about someone who doesn't really believe on Jesus with no signs of their Faith.

 

[Helen]

I don't think this explanation is anywhere near scriptural. In fact, I think it is gross error. It is from the false doctrine that our "past, present and future" sins are forgiven, turning the grace of God into licentiousness Jude 1:4. When we come to Christ, only our past sins are forgiven at that point. 2 Peter 1:9

1 John 1:9 is how to become a Christian.

No surprise that I don't agree with you. We don't seem to agree on much.

LEGALLY man's past, present , and future sins WERE forgiven at the cross.
Jesus legally paid the price for all of mankind.
Most don't even know that! The majority don't care...
Some of us have seen that, fallen on our knees and said- " Thank You Lord for Your love, life , death and deliverance. "

@Cooper 's last line in that post was ...

"But we need parental forgiveness throughout our Christian life."
Somehow you missed that qualifier.
Therefore it is not therefore a "gross error".


He didn't infer that we just " bounce through life , living how we like...he acknowledges here that we still need to 'walk in the light' to stay in fellowship with Father.

 

[marks]

The reason the Hyper-Grace movement is so dangerous is because it is teaching the believer they no longer have need to repent of any sin they might do after having believed on Christ Jesus and been baptized

Hi Davy,

I don't know about "hyper-grace", the way you describe it sounds like the gnostics, who said sins of the flesh were irrelevant, I think.

If we are sinning we need to stop. I see things like, once we come back to our senses, we stop the sin, if we need to make apologies or reparations, do that, and continue walking in the Spirit.

So many people, I think, feel like their sins bring them back into condemnation, and therefore separation, until they are "re-justified", until they "make it right with God".

But nothing, no created thing can separate you from God's love in Christ Jesus. No created thing. Are you a created thing?

To me, hyper-grace means that God has solved my sin problem completely. I am no longer under condemnation. I am no longer corrupt. I am new life, a new man, a generation from God Himself.

Much love!

 

[marks]

In the latter example of the unprofitable servant, right. That's a believer, a claimed believer.

The first example in Matthew 7 is about believers with works in Christ Jesus, so we cannot just say they weren't true believers. So it's dangerous to think that example is about someone who doesn't really believe on Jesus with no signs of their Faith.

Except that Jesus will tell them that Jesus never knew them, and that won't be a lie. They never had a relationship.

Feelings of condemnation and guilt stop you from receiving grace from God because they are contrary to faith in the finished work of Christ. It makes things our work, to repair ourselves, so we can be acceptible to Him.

Much love!

 

[Helen]

I I have just come away from a "Grace" forum, and I am heartily opposed to their teaching. To my mind it is a licence to sin. But that leaves the question, how are we forgiven if we do sin?

Brother , don't throw the baby out with the bathwater!
Just because some over eat on ice cream , doesn't mean that we all have to.
I agree some take grace to the extreme.

But even Grace has accountability. Grace without accountably is devoid of love.

As you know...it is our love for the Lord that is the constrainer ...it is the leash of love that we have allowed the Lord to put on to us. ( Much like the OT picture of the love-slave putting his ear up to the door to have a hole punched in, to show he is choosing to serve his master all his life, even through free.

His grace is amazing...don't throw it out...but love causes us to be love-slaves..even though we are free. And, we ARE free indeed!

The people who you have maybe met that abuse Grace ..are just people who have had the leash removed by the Lord...to test is they will "run-free" or choose to be free, yet bound by the Restrains of love.

...Helen

 

[Helen]

To me, hyper-grace means that God has solved my sin problem completely. I am no longer under condemnation. I am no longer corrupt. I am new life, a new man, a generation from God Himself.

Much love!

I find no word hyper-grace in the bible.
But GRACE!!!

 

[marks]

Belief on the perfection of the flesh is one of the causes for thinking we have no further need to repent to Jesus of our future sins.

I'm not talking about that. I believe the flesh is irreparably corrupted by sin, remains that way until our resurrection, the redemption of our bodies, and as such, remains our lifelong enemy. When we falter in faith, sin results, as faith is what keeps us in His grace to stand.

Much love!

 

[Helen]

How does forgiven of all sins turn grace into licentiousness? I don't see that being the case. Actually, I see that knowing all sin if forgiven is the key that opens the lock to having victory over sin.

So I see this pretty much the opposite.

Much love!

Agree.

It is driven by fear I believe ...which shows that love is not solid in them and they are not secure. It is also trust in self.

It says- ."...Perfect love casts out fear" Perfect love also takes away any desire to sin. Bond-slaves to Him via love..

 

[marks]

Agree.

It is driven by fear I believe ...which shows that love is not solid in them and they are not secure. It is also trust in self.

It says- ."...Perfect love casts out fear" Perfect love also takes away any desire to sin. Bond-slaves to Him via love..

As long as I keep in mind He loves me, and He is here with me, everything flows from there. His love gives no place for fear, He just does that! Perfect peace, and fulness of joy, here and now, ours for the believing!

Much Love!

 

[Davy]

Hi Davy,

I don't know about "hyper-grace", the way you describe it sounds like the gnostics, who said sins of the flesh were irrelevant, I think.

Your idea about the gnostics sounds confusing, since the Hyper-Grace movement actually treats sins of the flesh as irrelevant after one believes on Jesus Christ. The gnostics didn't believe the flesh was divine, but only our spirit. Yet the occultist believes that flesh can be divine also, and become perfect (at the resurrection?). The Grace movement is very close on the borderline of that false occult belief about the possibility of flesh perfection even prior to the resurrection.

If we are sinning we need to stop. I see things like, once we come back to our senses, we stop the sin, if we need to make apologies or reparations, do that, and continue walking in the Spirit.

That usually includes repentance. As a disciple of Jesus Christ, don't you think we need to make an apology to our Lord Jesus also?

So many people, I think, feel like their sins bring them back into condemnation, and therefore separation, until they are "re-justified", until they "make it right with God".

it's not wrong to feel that leading back to condemnation, because if we cut The Holy Spirit leading off and fall away, we can go back to our old ways of sin and truly be in danger of hell fire again. Study Hebrews 5. It's like Paul also taught in Galatians 5, walk by The Spirit and we won't be doing anything that is against God's laws.

But nothing, no created thing can separate you from God's love in Christ Jesus. No created thing. Are you a created thing?

I'm a realist, and I believe our Lord Jesus' warnings against falling away from Him. Nothing can 'force' us to fall away, but 'we' can choose to fall away of our own doing, which is why He warned us against being deceived.

To me, hyper-grace means that God has solved my sin problem completely. I am no longer under condemnation. I am no longer corrupt. I am new life, a new man, a generation from God Himself.

Much love!

Hyper-Grace is just another label for the Grace movement.

Like I said, I'm a realist. I don't like to fib to myself thinking that my salvation is already complete while I'm still in this flesh and still slipping up at times, and needing to repent to our Lord Jesus. My Faith is not in this present condition and world (Romans 8:18-25); I'm looking forward to the world to come and our Lord Jesus' return. This present world is temporary and doomed to perish by fire.

 

[Davy]

Except that Jesus will tell them that Jesus never knew them, and that won't be a lie. They never had a relationship.

Feelings of condemnation and guilt stop you from receiving grace from God because they are contrary to faith in the finished work of Christ. It makes things our work, to repair ourselves, so we can be acceptible to Him.

Much love!

The works reveal them as His servants, just as the unprofitable servant was given a talent even though he did nothing with it. The works show they had... to have a relationship with Jesus to do those works. So we cannot just up and say those weren't really believers on Him. To say they were not is a cop out, just an excuse the Hyper-Grace movement has made up.

 

[marks]

The works reveal them as His servants, just as the unprofitable servant was given a talent even though he did nothing with it. The works show they had... to have a relationship with Jesus to do those works. So we cannot just up and say those weren't really believers on Him. To say they were not is a cop out, just an excuse the Hyper-Grace movement has made up.

Jesus told them, Depart from Me ye that work iniquity. That's what their works really were. Lawlessness. Not the works of righteousness.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The Grace movement is very close on the borderline of that false occult belief about the possibility of flesh perfection even prior to the resurrection.

OK, well, I'm not a part of all that then.

 

[CharismaticLady]

We think God judges us the way we judge ourselves, and therefore close the door to His help, when in fact it is us, and not God that closes that door.

We don't think we deserve His help because we know we are wrong, we believe that we've separated ourselves, and we don't walk in faith.

But knowing that all sin is removed from us, sent away from us, then even the sin I just now committed does not separate me from God, nothing can ever separate me from God, so I remain in His presence and in His care 24/7, no matter what, and He always is loving me, and filling me, and guiding me, and cleansing me, everything He does He continues to do, not because I've been good, but because I believe Him.

Not because I've been good.

Only in faith.

This is what I've found in my life. Any urges to sin are swallowed up in the knowledge of God's presence with me, and His love for me. Weakness becomes strength. Sorrow becomes joy. Life is fruitful. And I walk in His love, and peace, and there is no sin.

Because I know that that's what He does in me, and that even if I do fall short of that calling, even so, it's not about what I do, it's about what Jesus did, and when I realize I've stopped walking in faith, there is no hindrance to return to the walk of faith at that moment.

Much love!

How do you commit willful sin in the first place? And you believe willful sin is already forgiven?

 

[CharismaticLady]

No surprise that I don't agree with you. We don't seem to agree on much.

LEGALLY man's past, present , and future sins WERE forgiven at the cross.
Jesus legally paid the price for all of mankind.
Most don't even know that! The majority don't care...
Some of us have seen that, fallen on our knees and said- " Thank You Lord for Your love, life , death and deliverance. "

@Cooper 's last line in that post was ...

"But we need parental forgiveness throughout our Christian life."
Somehow you missed that qualifier.
Therefore it is not therefore a "gross error".


He didn't infer that we just " bounce through life , living how we like...he acknowledges here that we still need to 'walk in the light' to stay in fellowship with Father.

But the Bible says we are cleansed of our old sins 2 Peter 1:9. No where does an apostle teach a Christian will commit willful sins once cleansed of the desire to commit them. That means present and future willful sins are not cleansed. Read Hebrews 10:26-31. Of course, if someone claiming to be a Christian does not have the power of the Spirit and are not born again, then they will commit present and future sins and will be damned.

cc: @marks

 

[bbyrd009]

It wasn't anything I did that caused me to be born corrupted and dead sin.

ha you were born perfect, not corrupted

I never really had a chance!

yeh, prolly, but you did "kill" Christ when you founded the world, you might even recall the day. i do.

Being born corrupted by original sin

but no, at least imo. If you attempted to Quote this maybe, we might see

 

[Davy]

I'm not talking about that. I believe the flesh is irreparably corrupted by sin, remains that way until our resurrection, the redemption of our bodies, and as such, remains our lifelong enemy. When we falter in faith, sin results, as faith is what keeps us in His grace to stand.

Much love!

Sorry, I don't believe in the perfection of the flesh period, not even at the resurrection (your words in bold above?). God's Word does not teach that.

See 1 Corinthians 15:42-50, especially with how Apostle Paul points to Christ's resurrection body as being "a quickening spirit"; 2 Corinthians 5:1-6; Ecclesiastes 12:5-7.

I don't believe in Gnosticism, for though they didn't believe the flesh was divine, they believed like the mystic in being perfect while in the flesh through their spirit reaching perfection via gnosis. They believed they themselves could achieve that, without Christ. They believed Jesus was Divine while in the flesh only once the Holy Spirit descended on Him, and then leaving before His suffering on the cross. Some of them believed that Jesus married and had children, which is a mocking also.

What I am showing you is straight Bible. Not old Jewish traditions, not Gnosticism, not occultism, just straight Christian doctrine right out of God's Word.

So then, with the following passage you referred to about the redemption, just what part of our being today is that?

Rom 8:11
11 But if the Spirit of Him That raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He That raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you.
KJV

The question is, just what does Paul mean by that "mortal bodies"?

It's a common misconception to think he was pointing to our flesh bodies, simply because we know our flesh is mortal and dies. But it's not our flesh that is 'quickened' at the resurrection. Paul showed that with 1 Corinthians 15:50 emphatically. Our Lord Jesus revealed it also with Matthew 22:30, as angels don't have flesh bodies, and nor will we at our resurrection (or 'change'). The 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 change at the twinkling of an eye on the last trump is yet another pointer to our flesh being changed to the "spiritual body" that Paul taught in that chapter. How can all these pointers be denied in favor of a doctrine from men that the resurrection involves a new flesh body?? That idea simply is not Biblical. What Apostle Paul showed us is what is Biblical, so what kind of body are these "mortal bodies" Paul was talking about? What body is the redemption about?

A "spiritual body", not flesh.


Rom 8:18-25
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Even though Apostle John said already we are "sons of God" (meaning children of God), Paul here is talking about a change that's still coming to complete that. And the creation is waiting for that future manifesting of the sons of God (this word "creature" is Greek ktisis meaning 'original formation' (Strong's no.2937).

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him Who hath subjected the same in hope,

God placed His originally formed creation into vanity, subjecting it to a hope of future release out of vanity.

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

What also? Paul is talking about the real us, the part of us that is going to be redeemed that was placed in corruption for this present world, and which is going to be released into the future glorious liberty of the children of God, i.e., pointing again to that above manifesting of the sons of God, meaning after Christ's return in the future.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

There it is. The KJV translators made Greek ktisis as "creation" that time instead of the word "creature". Today, God's creation is in a state of bondage of corruption, seeking redemption. So likewise we are seeking the redemption of our bodies also, meaning our spirit that's inside our flesh...

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

What is it that is "within ourselves" that groans? We cannot say that means our flesh. No, that is our spirit inside our flesh that groans, waiting for the redemption. Redemption of our flesh? No, redemption of our spirit. Apostle Paul was emphatic that the resurrection is to a "spiritual body", not a new flesh body (1 Cor.15).

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
KJV

Those hope verses reveal this redemption has not yet happened today. It will only happen with the future earth changes written of in God's Word, which begin at Christ's return.

Thus my whole point, there is no such thing as perfection of the flesh. It is not the flesh body that is saved by Christ.