Fall of the American Empire

[[email protected]]

It never ceases to amaze me how the Word of God is twisted and tied into knots to fit someone's version of future events - or even current ones.

Every single commentary I've consulted about these verses (Dan 7:4 & 12) refers to the ancient empires of Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome. Why is that I wonder? Could it be that the historical account of the Bible sticks strictly to the effect of history upon the Jews and Israel?

Try as hard as we like, there is absolutely no reference or intimation of references to America in ANY of the pages of the Bible. It simply isn't there. There are no direct or indirect suggestions of the uSA at all. None.

Why then do miopic American eyes continue to see the stars and stripes in the pages of holy scripture? God just couldn't leave out the greatest empire of all time from His book could He? Geez, God must have made a big mistake to forget about America! So we have to help Him along a little don't we? A little patriotic editing is ok isn't it? Rubbish. Absolute rubbish.

The truth is that God didn't forget about America in His book. The Bible isn't about America any more than it's about dinosaurs, recipe collections or the rise and fall of the Ming dynasty. It's about the historical evidence of God's character and His plan of redemption as revealed through a particular group of people. None of them were American by the way.

If you really really really want to understand what Daniel was writing about, or anybody else in the pages of Holy Writ for that matter, you've GOT to get your nationalism out of your head. The universe doesn't turn upon America you know. Maybe, just maybe, there is another explanation, but whatever it is you can bet your favorite Texas chili recipe that it doesn't include the minions of Washington DC.
* * *
Moving along to the Great Apostacy, which is upon us in spades, freshman students of current events can tell you that the problem is western. Europe is entirely secularized and North America isn't far behind it. According to a recent Gallup Poll only 43% of Americans belong to a church. Another poll I queried, which actually counted heads and not statements because people lie about everything from sex to spirituality, arrived at a number in the neighborhood of 20%. It gets worse. 87% of all Americans do not attend church on a regular basis and all projections for the future agree that by the year 2050 those numbers will shrink to less than 10%.

I can't vouch for Europe, but one of the biggest reasons for the decline of the church in the uS is the 501c3 IRS statute of 1954. It effectively put out the fire in our nation's pulpits leaving us nothing to watch on Sunday morning but a cheap dog and pony show. An entertainment starved population gradually turned to things more interesting and erotic. Every man has a God sized hole in his heart and if the church doesn't fill it with Jesus most men will try to stuff it with tinsel. It doesn't work, of course, but by the time they figured it out they had forgotten where they could get the real thing in the first place. The priests and ministers couldn't lead them. They were busy tickling their fancy by playing monopoly with real buildings or just tickling little boys.

If you want to know what America's biggest problem is just look in the mirror. The face that looks back at you is the problem. Millions of Christians think that Romans 13 implies a mandate for our government to do whatever it wants to do, wicked unjust illegal or not. They just fold their hands and say, "it's God's problem" when in actual fact He's made it our responsibility. We have shirked our duty both to God and our country and will pay a terrible price for our neglect.

Not only is the American Empire in decline, but our liberty has eroded away at a dreadful pace.
The American flag is now our religion. War and the blood of our enemies is supposed to be our salvation.
Everywhere I look, folks think that all they have to do is say the Pledge of Allegiance one more time and things will be just fine.
Well they won't.

Daniel isn't talking about the American Eagle in his book. Read the whole of chapter seven there. Terrible and awful things are going to happen at the end of the age. What most folks don't realize is that we have already lost our liberty and the end is not yet. Not even close.

Freedom to most Americans means the freedom to consume conspicusouly.
That's not freedom at all, it's simply the hook to financial slavery.
Our liberty is lost and our ego maniac empire is crumbling.
God help us.

 

[BibleScribe]

It never ceases to amaze me how the Word of God is twisted and tied into knots to fit someone's version of future events - or even current ones. Every single commentary I've consulted about these verses (Dan 7:4 & 12) refers to the ancient empires of Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome. Why is that I wonder? Could it be that the historical account of the Bible sticks strictly to the effect of history upon the Jews and Israel? Try as hard as we like, there is absolutely no reference or intimation of references to America in ANY of the pages of the Bible. ...

You are incorrect in your assessment. Specifically, there is absolutely NO ancient fulfillment -- as assessed by honest scholars/commentators. And rightfully so, for the angel instructs that the words are "shut up and sealed until the time of the end", which is approximate to 1949.

Furthermore, the book of Daniel is NOT written to the Jews, but to the nations.

And finally, it may correct that you cannot find any reference to the U.S. in Scripture, however, it is incorrect to assert that there are none. For I can provide dozens including in: Psalms, Ezekiel, Daniel, and Revelation.


BibleScribe

 

[veteran]

It never ceases to amaze me how the Word of God is twisted and tied into knots to fit someone's version of future events - or even current ones.

Every single commentary I've consulted about these verses (Dan 7:4 & 12) refers to the ancient empires of Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome. Why is that I wonder? Could it be that the historical account of the Bible sticks strictly to the effect of history upon the Jews and Israel?

Try as hard as we like, there is absolutely no reference or intimation of references to America in ANY of the pages of the Bible. It simply isn't there. There are no direct or indirect suggestions of the uSA at all. None.

Brother, you simply don't know how wrong you are about that.

 

[michaelvpardo]

I had an awful headache before I started reading this topic and I couldn't get through all the posts, as my headache has just been getting worse. I just wanted to make some comments, not any biblical disertations. I served the nation for a short while when I was young as an airman in the USAF. I don't regret having done that in spite of some of the evil habits that I picked up in the process, including some rather profane speech, but I do regret having taken an oath before God at the time of induction. By the grace of God, I served in one of those brief periods of time when our nation was not actively involved in any wars, (except President Reagan's "War" on drugs.) I had already been a civilian for quite a while back in 2001. I had recieved Jesus as Lord and Savior about 7 years prior to Sept. 11 2001, and had been engaged in preaching the coming judgement of our nation to people who had no interest in hearing it. In my heart, I'd wished that I was wrong. The week before the attacks, my union had been handing out leaflets on the street and in the underground lobby areas at the trade center. I occasionally worked at the site and had some friendly aquaintances that survived the attacks, and some that didn't. None of them were close friends or relatives, but I can't think about those days without the deepest sense of grief in my soul. Over the last 10 years the Lord has been healing me, but invisible scars remain. The unit that I work for supports the police that were on the street doing crowd control and rescue and I heard some incredible horror stories about those that had jumped to their deaths rather than being burned alive. I saw the look in the faces of surviving officers after they'd been relieved and came to our shop for equipment, the distant stare in horrified eyes. The sense that something was dreadfully wrong in the universe, but seemingly without reason, and I couldn't offer one word of comfort. I couldn't even speak. Some saw the event as an opportunity for evangelism, and while church attendance swelled for a while, you don't see those numbers anymore.
I'm not a crusader, but the Lord built me from my youth to be a defender, not of the faith, but of the weak, of those who can't defend themselves. I wasn't a fighter; I was even more than a little timid with people of a brutal nature, but come after one of my friends that were unable to protect themselves and something inside me would come aflame and people just backed off. I know other people like that, most have received the gospel at some point. I'm not a crusader, but I do wage war with the sword of the Spirit, prayer, acts of kindness under the prompting of the Holy Spirit. If you're in the battle, you know that it's rough. I'm having a difficult time with the notion of facing those things which are to come. I know that God can preserve my life through anything if His purpose in it remains incomplete, but who would want to be a witness of such events. At my age, I don't expect to ever be recalled to combat service, but I train just the same; I took an oath before God, and there is a curse in the book of Zechariah against those who swear falsely in His name.
Some say that wars are won first in the hearts and minds of men. A chinese General of great worldly wisdom by the name of Sun Tzu said that the best warriors win the battle without a fight. Our enemy destroys any way that he can, but much of it is through peaceful deception. General Tsu had no problem with the use of deception, misdirection, and many other things of Satan, and things basic to martial arts. As Christians the Lord requires of us to stand in the truth, so I wage war against the spiritual powers using the spiritual weapons God has given us, but God forbid that the war spills over into the fleshly realms. I'd rather be taken as a transgressor, than forsake my oathes made before God, even if they were given before I understood His Word. I don't believe that I'm alone in this. We are presented with difficult choices, and rather than attempt to beat each other up with scripture and play games like "who's the best scholar" maybe we should be spending a little more time on our knees or on our faces talking to the Lord about how we are to stand in the gap for a people dying from ignorance and unbelief in the word of God. I can't call Christians to take up arms and won't do such a thing. Each man has to do that which keeps his conscience clean, but an oath, like a covenant is no trifling thing. I'm determined to stand and only the Lord can determine if I will fall or how, but He is able to make me stand. It's time to make some choices. Things don't get much more real than they are now. To the sword those destined to the sword, to captivity, those destined to captivity. Pray for peace brothers, but there is a time to beat plowshares into swords. The Lord bless you, the Lord keep you, the lord make His face to shine upon you. The only peace that we have is that which we hold in our hearts and there is no peace for the wicked.

 

[BibleScribe]

... there is a time to beat plowshares into swords. ...

Hi Michael V. Pardo,

I would propose that we are encumbered with the Gospel of peace, but so too that Gospel is one of strife. And so we war against the spirits by the spirit, but we also see the evidence in the flesh (i.e., brothers, parents, and children in conflict). But in conflict (given that we should maintain righteousness, and another in unrighteousness) it is not both who are guilty, anymore than the Jews are guilty of defending their lives, homes, and nation. And GOD will not hold them accountable for that conflict, but HE will hold the other accountable.

And I'm not sure if you got your text backwards, and if so, -- it's premature to beat our swords into plowshares. That time will come, but for now I would argue that each one must determine what GOD's will is for his/her individual circumstance, -- whether self preservation or martyrdom.


BibleScribe

 

[Edward Palamar]

When one is going to look in hindsight as you do, popeye, it would be best to have a sound starting point. As this is the 'end times' portion of this site, WWII was a prophecied result of men failing to heed God's call through Divine apparition of Jesus Christ's own Mother. WWII may have been a doozy, but one needs to ask the question, did WWII atone for all that which men had undertaken which provoked the wrath of God?

I commend what is left of civility to God for His Eternal Kingdom, the one which will never fall.

 

[BibleScribe]

... WWII was a prophecied result of men failing to heed God's call through Divine apparition of Jesus Christ's own Mother. ...

Hi Edward Palamar,

I'm unaware of any such prophetic association. Certainly both the Psalms and Daniel account for that event, but there is NO inference (direct or otherwise) of any such foundation in either passage.



BibleScribe

 

[Edward Palamar]

I'm unaware of any such prophetic association.

Hi, BibleScribe : The Fatima prophecies came upon us during WWI with an antidote which wasn't taken.

 

[BibleScribe]

Hi Edward Palamar,

I would propose that if Scripture defers to the temporal, then there is no foundation. As such I would give greater credence the two primary instances, and lessor to others.


BibleScribe

 

[dismas]

Hi, BibleScribe : The Fatima prophecies came upon us during WWI with an antidote which wasn't taken.

Worshipping the "Queen of heaven" is a wicked abomination to God. So abominable, it is one of the prerequisites for the day of the Lord's sudden destruction.

Jeremiah 7:
17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?
18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?
20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.

 

[BibleScribe]

Deut. 18:22
[sup]22[/sup]When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

 

[Naben123]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxg_QQ_p8fc

Revealing hidden prophesies from Daniel 7: Four Beasts.

The First Beast: George H.W. Bush
The Second Beast: George W. Bush
The Third Beast: Barack Obama
The Forth Beast: Satan

 

[Edward Palamar]

I would propose that if Scripture defers to the temporal, then there is no foundation.

You certainly wouldn't be the first, i.e., the agnostic thrives upon such a premise

 

[BibleScribe]

Revealing hidden prophesies from Daniel 7: Four Beasts.

The First Beast: George H.W. Bush
The Second Beast: George W. Bush
The Third Beast: Barack Obama
The Forth Beast: Satan

Ummmmmmmm, who is writing this stuff, Saturday Night Live?


Hate to burst your bubble, but what a load of horse manure.
BibleScribe

 

[Edward Palamar]

Worshipping the "Queen of heaven"

There is a difference between worshipping Christ's Mother and letting her speak.

 

[BibleScribe]

You certainly wouldn't be the first, i.e., the agnostic thrives upon such a premise

Are you suggesting that if Scripture provides a prophecy, and an individual provides a similar prophecy, that both carry the same weight? And to go to the next step, do you suggest that the latter exceeds the former?

And finally, do you own property either in Guyana or Waco?


BibleScribe

 

[Edward Palamar]

Are you suggesting that if Scripture provides a prophecy, and an individual provides a similar prophecy, that both carry the same weight?

That's the general idea.

 

[BibleScribe]

That's the general idea.

That a generally bad idea.


Please allow that you are following a shadow, but miss the manifestation. Specifically, I would propose that you have absolutely no clue as to Scriptural evidence of "WWII". Thus you're grasping for straws, when Iron Railing is at your finger tips.

BibleScribe

 

[[email protected]]

You are incorrect in your assessment. Specifically, there is absolutely NO ancient fulfillment -- as assessed by honest scholars/commentators. And rightfully so, for the angel instructs that the words are "shut up and sealed until the time of the end", which is approximate to 1949.

Furthermore, the book of Daniel is NOT written to the Jews, but to the nations.

And finally, it may correct that you cannot find any reference to the U.S. in Scripture, however, it is incorrect to assert that there are none. For I can provide dozens including in: Psalms, Ezekiel, Daniel, and Revelation.


BibleScribe

References to the four beasts in the book of Daniel are almost universally understood to be ancient empires, not modern ones.
No legitimate scholarly reference I know of admits otherwise.

The predisposition of many to read the red, white and blue into every line of scripture is errant if not nearly heretical. Science learned long ago that the sun moon and stars do not revolve around us, but it does seem that many American Christians have not learned that simple lesson when they open their Bibles. Why are Americans so conceited about their role in the universe? Could it be that the "rockets red glare" has blinded them to God's own truth?

Now it is true that legions of popular bookstore novels utilize American nationalism to tickle folks into buying their swill, and to fill the author's account with royalties. The proof of this is that in the end these people always take liberties with their interpretations, which in turn always turn out to be wrong. I'd hardly lump these snake oil salesmen in the same category as bonafide scholars. Most of them don't even have a college degree, their academic prowess having been limited to some Sunday school certificate they got by mail.

It has been said that American protestantism is in self-destruct mode. One of the reasons why this is true is the fact, clearly illustrated by this exchange, that traditional scholarship and sound teaching have been abandoned for political nationalistic expediency. Every man is wise in his own eyes and ignores the studied experience of his betters. The humility of the student and disciple has been lost in the midst of arrogant presupposition, the greatest of which is that which assumes America in a leading prophetic role.

It just isn't there, brother. One can argue and scream and twist the interpretations from dawn until dusk, but at the end of the day all that's left is a dogma that is riddled with contradictions. The truth has been left in the fog of nationalistic blather.

Let me say it just one more time.
The TRUTH is that America is NOT in the Bible, neither is it directly or indirectly referenced as a participant in any prophecy.

Additionally, extended interpretations of which president of the uSA is Satan's right hand man are equally erroneous as were those of Mussolini, Hitler, Napoleon, et al. It didn't work then boys and girls and it doesn't work now - unless of course you mean to make a quick buck on it.

 

[Edward Palamar]

That a generally bad idea.

How so? I have only spoken to you through my fingertips and intellect without loss of intended message. Whether I speak to you face-to-face directly or accross the medium of this forum, prophecy is not at risk.

It seems to me that you have a predilection one way or another.

By the way, I got into this with wikipedia which has editors who are agnostics efforting to destroy God's work in men today.