Falling from grace

[Episkopos]

Gal_5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

I think very few Christians understand this verse. they think this doesn't happen to Christians...in spite of the fact that Paul was writing this to a new testament church. It just doesn't fit into our religious understanding....so we reject this warning as if it were for unbelievers only.


But what is Paul saying...

Grace is a MEANS of perfectly obeying the law of Christ. If we are trying to obey God in our own strength then we are not walking in His grace...but rather our own strength. Now if we were once walking in the resurrection life of Jesus and then decided to try doing something from ourselves...then that is how we fall from grace...or rather the fall from grace causes us to try being obedient from ourselves.

So the grace walk is according to His power. Most Christians don't know this power so how could they know what falling from it is?

Here is the test...have you gone from being a sinner...to walking in heavenly power that conquers all sin....back to walking as any other sinner again? Then you have experienced falling from grace!

Have you only ever experienced walking as a sinner? Then you won't understand falling fro grace because you have not yet walked in it.

 

[dragonfly]

I enjoyed your post, brother. Thank you.

Most Christians don't know this power so how could they know what falling from it is?

I don't want to open a can of worms, but, isn't that an oxymoron?

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. 23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great [is] that darkness!

so we reject this warning as if it were for unbelievers only.

Whoever thinks this is confused, and you know this doesn't really make sense - as unbelievers are not expected to know the grace of God and walk in power.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
When I first began reading the Bible for myself back in 1968, a big question
that came to mind was the ritual of circumcision. Having like zero
understanding of the new covenant, I sincerely believed it was essential to
undergo the ritual in order to be counted worthy to escape the wrath of God.

Fortunately I was befriended by a Conservative Baptist minister around that
same time who set me straight with pretty much the same explanation that Paul
penned to his Christian friends in Gal 5:1-6.

Point being: I wouldn't be too hasty to accuse the Galatians of apostasy. I
truly believe they were about to make an honest mistake because I know for
myself just how easy it is to sincerely believe that compliance with Moses'
covenant is essential to one's personal protection from the wrath of God; for
example:

†. Acts 15:1 . . And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the
brethren, and said: Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye
cannot be saved.

That issue was a volatile bone of contention-- so much so that Paul and
Barnabus were dispatched to Jerusalem in the 15th chapter of Acts to
discuss it with the apostles and the elders in order to obtain an official ruling
on it.

Cliff
/

 

[haz]

Hi Episkopis,

Not sure what your doctrine is so I'll ask some questions to help clarify things.

Are you perfectly obeying the law?

Have you ever fallen from grace?

 

[Webers_Home]

.

Grace is a MEANS of perfectly obeying the law of Christ.

The only application for grace that I see in Gal 5:1-4 is the liberty to be
myself.

One of the things that makes Moses' covenanted law so lethal is its 110%
intolerance for deliberate sins. In other words: if you know ahead of time
that something is wrong-- if you know in advance it's against God's wishes
--and go ahead and do it anyway, you are guilty of deliberate sin. The Levitical
system has absolutely no atonements in its repertoire for deliberate sin. The
deliberate sinner has to be excommunicated, and their guilt stays with them.

†. Num 15:30-31 . . But the person, be he citizen or stranger, who acts
defiantly reviles the Lord; that person shall be cut off from among his
people. Because he has spurned the word of the Lord and violated His
commandment, that person shall be cut off-- he bears his guilt.

Another thing that makes Moses' covenanted law so lethal is the automatic
curse that violators accrue.

†. Deut 27:26 . . Cursed is anyone who does not affirm the terms of this law
by obeying them.

Between the unforgivable guilt of deliberate sins, and the automatic curse
accrued for disobedience; there is no possible way for anyone to attain
heaven via Moses' covenanted law. It just can't be done.

So then, what people really need is liberty to just be themselves; viz:
something akin to diplomatic immunity-- which is just exactly what the
grace of God provides via Christ's crucifixion; and is the only God-given
atonement proven effective against deliberate sins.

†. Acts 13:38-40 . . My brothers; I want you to know that through Jesus the
forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes
is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of
Moses.

†. Heb 10:26 . . Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we
have received a full knowledge of the truth, there is no other sacrifice that
will cover these sins.

Christ's crucifixion is also the only atonement proven effective against the
automatic curse.

†. Gal 3:10 . . All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is
written: Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written
in the Book of the Law.

†. Gal 3:13 . . Christ hath ransomed us from the curse of the law, being
made a curse for us

So then, Christians seeking to escape the wrath of God via obedience to the
so-called ten commandments, or any of the rest of Moses' commandments,
don't realize what they've gotten themselves into. Christ gives people the
liberty to just be themselves; while Moses demands an "or else" compliance
to an iron-clad set of statutes, rules, regulations, and stipulations that are
by and large totally incompatible with human nature.

†. Acts 15:10-11 . . Now therefore why do you put God to the test by
placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our ancestors nor
we have been able to bear? But we believe that we are saved through the
grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.

†. Gal 5:1 . . So Christ has really set us free. Now make sure that you stay
free, and don't get tied up again in slavery to the law.

Cliff
/

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Episkopis,

Not sure what your doctrine is so I'll ask some questions to help clarify things.

Are you perfectly obeying the law?

Have you ever fallen from grace?

no and yes

.


The only application for grace that I see in Gal 5:1-4 is the liberty to be
myself.

One of the things that makes Moses' covenanted law so lethal is its 110%
intolerance for deliberate sins. In other words: if you know ahead of time
that something is wrong-- if you know in advance it's against God's wishes
--and go ahead and do it anyway, you are guilty of deliberate sin. The Levitical
system has absolutely no atonements in its repertoire for deliberate sin. The
deliberate sinner has to be excommunicated, and their guilt stays with them.

†. Num 15:30-31 . . But the person, be he citizen or stranger, who acts
defiantly reviles the Lord; that person shall be cut off from among his
people. Because he has spurned the word of the Lord and violated His
commandment, that person shall be cut off-- he bears his guilt.

Another thing that makes Moses' covenanted law so lethal is the automatic
curse that violators accrue.

†. Deut 27:26 . . Cursed is anyone who does not affirm the terms of this law
by obeying them.

Between the unforgivable guilt of deliberate sins, and the automatic curse
accrued for disobedience; there is no possible way for anyone to attain
heaven via Moses' covenanted law. It just can't be done.

So then, what people really need is liberty to just be themselves; viz:
something akin to diplomatic immunity-- which is just exactly what the
grace of God provides via Christ's crucifixion; and is the only God-given
atonement proven effective against deliberate sins.

†. Acts 13:38-40 . . My brothers; I want you to know that through Jesus the
forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes
is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of
Moses.

†. Heb 10:26 . . Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we
have received a full knowledge of the truth, there is no other sacrifice that
will cover these sins.

Christ's crucifixion is also the only atonement proven effective against the
automatic curse.

†. Gal 3:10 . . All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is
written: Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written
in the Book of the Law.

†. Gal 3:13 . . Christ hath ransomed us from the curse of the law, being
made a curse for us

So then, Christians seeking to escape the wrath of God via obedience to the
so-called ten commandments, or any of the rest of Moses' commandments,
don't realize what they've gotten themselves into. Christ gives people the
liberty to just be themselves; while Moses demands an "or else" compliance
to an iron-clad set of statutes, rules, regulations, and stipulations that are
by and large totally incompatible with human nature.

†. Acts 15:10-11 . . Now therefore why do you put God to the test by
placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our ancestors nor
we have been able to bear? But we believe that we are saved through the
grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.

†. Gal 5:1 . . So Christ has really set us free. Now make sure that you stay
free, and don't get tied up again in slavery to the law.

Cliff
/

This is not what the gospel is declaring at all. Diplomatic immunity is a human invention that has no bearing on reality. Nobody has immunity from any law including gravity. So this is one of the fables we were warned about that men would adopt when they cannot receive the truth.

The gospel is according to miraculous power unleashed through the sacrifice and resurrection of Christ. Anybody can claim to be immune from prosecution...just as the Pharisees of old. I call this the "emperor's new clothes" of righteousness. The reality is the oposite.

I enjoyed your post, brother. Thank you.



I don't want to open a can of worms, but, isn't that an oxymoron?

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. 23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great [is] that darkness!



Whoever thinks this is confused, and you know this doesn't really make sense - as unbelievers are not expected to know the grace of God and walk in power.

Exactly!!!

 

[Webers_Home]

.

Nobody has immunity from any law

Maybe you don't have immunity; but I do because I'm a believer and you're
not.

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you, those who listen to my message, and believe
in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for
their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

It's a pity you learned nothing from post #5. Now you'll remain mired in the
very mind-set that Paul instructed his friends to avoid.

†. Gal 5:1 . . So Christ has really set us free. Now make sure that you stay
free, and don't get tied up again in slavery to the law.

Cliff
/

 

[Episkopos]

.


Maybe you don't have immunity; but I do because I'm a believer and you're
not.

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you, those who listen to my message, and believe
in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for
their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

It's a pity you learned nothing from post #5. Now you'll remain mired in the
very mind-set that Paul instructed his friends to avoid.

†. Gal 5:1 . . So Christ has really set us free. Now make sure that you stay
free, and don't get tied up again in slavery to the law.

Cliff
/

A believer in immunity??? Jesus Christ sets us free from the law of sin and death through the cross...we die in Jesus so that we can be raised in newness of life in Jesus according to the power of the life to come. Anything other than that is based on fables.

 

[Webers_Home]

.

A believer in immunity?

Yes; I believe in immunity.

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you, those who listen to my message, and believe
in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for
their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

Jesus Christ sets us free from the law of sin and death through the cross

That's very true; and if only you would accept it instead of opposing it.

†. Rom 8:1-2 . .There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ
Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free
from the law of sin and death.

Now; I have to say that what I am seeing here is truly a remarkable sight to
behold . You actually quoted a statement that testifies against you rather
than for you; and then even labeled what it says a fable. Remarkable.

Cliff
/

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Episkopos,

This is not what the gospel is declaring at all. Diplomatic immunity is a human invention that has no bearing on reality. Nobody has immunity from any law including gravity. So this is one of the fables we were warned about that men would adopt when they cannot receive the truth.

The gospel is according to miraculous power unleashed through the sacrifice and resurrection of Christ. Anybody can claim to be immune from prosecution...just as the Pharisees of old. I call this the "emperor's new clothes" of righteousness. The reality is the oposite.

I don't think you read Cliff's post properly. If you did, I think you may have misunderstood it, as I can see no difference between what you are saying and what he is saying, except the vocabulary. I wouldn't call being crucified with Christ 'immunity' either, but, anyone who's dead is not under law, and not being under law was his main point. A question about victory over sin, would help clarify the common ground.

Webers_Home? Care to comment?

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Episkopos,



I don't think you read Cliff's post properly. If you did, I think you may have misunderstood it, as I can see no difference between what you are saying and what he is saying, except the vocabulary. I wouldn't call being crucified with Christ 'immunity' either, but, anyone who's dead is not under law, and not being under law was his main point. A question about victory over sin, would help clarify the common ground.

Webers_Home? Care to comment?

There are many spreaders of fables that declare that a Christian can sin without penalty....an immunity from prosecution from sin by God. We are held irresponsible and unaccountable. But this is the opposite of the truth. The Holy Spirit makes us more responsible not less. To whom so much has been given MORE is required not less.

 

[dragonfly]

There are many spreaders of fables that declare that a Christian can sin without penalty....an immunity from prosecution from sin by God. We are held irresponsible and unaccountable. But this is the opposite of the truth. The Holy Spirit makes us more responsible not less. To whom so much has been given MORE is required not less.

Ah. I didn't think this was Cliff's message, but, I may have been reading his post making some assumptions about his meaning.

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[Episkopos]

Ah. I didn't think this was Cliff's message, but, I may have been reading his post making some assumptions about his meaning.

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

 

[Axehead]

Ah. I didn't think this was Cliff's message, but, I may have been reading his post making some assumptions about his meaning.

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Yes, I did not think that was Cliff's messages, either. The vocabulary was new. I thought he was saying that we are immune to the penalty of the law which is true, since we died to it and are no longer under it. We certainly are not immune to chastisement as Hebrews 12 illustrates.

Hoping Cliff comments, also.

Axehead

 

[haz]

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Hi Episkopis,

I assuming you believe these verses in 1John 2 refer to keeping the 10 commandments in this physical life.
As you admitted that you don't keep them yourself are you also admitting that you are a liar and do not have the truth in you if you claim that you know him? Or are you claiiming you don't know him?

BTW, His commandments are given in 1John 3;23
"And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment."

And Jesus tells us our works in John 6:29.
"believe on him whom he hath sent"

It's either grace OR works of the law. You can't mix the two.
Rom 11:6
"And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.[sup] [/sup]But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work."

Mixing grace and works is being lukewarm.
Rev 3:15,16
"I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot.[sup] [/sup]So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot,I will vomit you out of My mouth."

 

[Webers_Home]

.

I thought he was saying that we are immune to the penalty of the law which
is true, since we died to it and are no longer under it. We certainly are not
immune to chastisement as Hebrews 12 illustrates.

Thank you. Yours are pert-near the perfect words.

When I converted from Catholicism to Protestantism back in 1968; I was
unaware at the time that there's a marked difference between criminal
justice and chastisement in the economy of God. I honestly could not tell
between the two because the nuns who trained my young Catholic mind in
catechism classes never talked bout it. Long story short, in time I learned
from the Protestants that the cross is for justice; while chastisement is for
discipline.

God the Judge no longer has any criminal matters on the books to settle
with me because His own son paid my past, present, and projected debts to
God's law on Calvary. In point of fact, when Christ died on Calvary, I died
with him by proxy participation in his crucifixion. Consequently, I also rose
from the dead with him by proxy participation in his resurrection. Hence, I
am now impervious to sin's consequences; viz: since Christ is never again
going to die for sin, then neither am I.

However, when I underwent the birth process as per John 3:3-8, and the
adoption process as per Eph 1:5, I was brought into the family of God as an
inexperienced, immature infant; and consequently subject to appropriate
chastising for my actions from then on. But chastising's purpose is to train a
child rather than to get even with him. In other words: chastisement is for
correction.

God doesn't bother chastising outsiders because for one thing; they're not
His children-- there's no place set for them around the table in God's home
nor is there a room in His palace with their name on the door. No; on the
contrary, outsiders are marked for death rather than discipline. In other
words: when somebody is on death row, that is not the time to be teaching
them their manners; no, that is the time to be explaining the purpose of
Christ's crucifixion because they are looking into the abyss; and the clock
is ticking.

Cliff
/

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Cliff,

Thanks for your generous and clear explanation. I would like to add that I do believe there's an important place for ongoing repentance from the believer to whom God reveals areas of ongoing sinfulness (usually in attitude rather than in deed but can be deed, too) as well as correction. I'm sure God uses the method He used on Israel, on us too: 'your own backsliding will correct you'.

Hi Axehead,

Thanks for the affirmation and your observations.


Hello Haz

I assuming you believe these verses in 1John 2 refer to keeping the 10 commandments in this physical life.

You are, indeed, assuming.

As you admitted that you don't keep them yourself are you also admitting that you are a liar and do not have the truth in you if you claim that you know him? Or are you claiiming you don't know him?

1 John 1:8 states
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

I don't know what you thought 1 John 1:8 says, but it says this: that if you confess that you sometimes sin (as Episkopos has confessed), you are telling the truth - the truth is in you. The opposite is also true. If you don't confess that you sometimes sin, you are lying, and the truth is not in you.

Your accusation and suggestion was not founded on scripture.

Please read it again.

 

[Webers_Home]

.

1John 1:8 states If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and
the truth is not in us.

Within the context of 1John; the pronouns "we" and "ourselves" and "us"
pertain to the category of people to whom the author penned the epistle.

†. 1John 5:13 . .These things I have written to you who believe in the name
of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life

According to that statement, the identifying marks of the category are: 1)
they believe in the name of the Son of God; and 2) they have eternal life. So
then, people passing themselves off as believers; while not possessing
eternal life; are not really believers because the Lord said essentially the
very same thing.

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you, those who listen to my message, and believe
in God who sent me, have eternal life.

Note the grammatical tense of the "have" verb in 1John 5:13 and John 5:24.
It's in the present tense rather than future; indicating that believers (the real
believers) all have eternal life right now-- no delay and no waiting period.

According to God's testimony as an expert witness in all matters pertaining
to His own son, people passing themselves off as His son's followers; while
not possessing eternal life, don't have His son. In other words: they are
quite christless.

†. 1John 5:11-12 . . And this is what God has testified: He has given us
eternal life, and this life is in His son. So whoever has God's son has the life;
whoever does not have the life, does not have His son.

A christless Christian is in very grave danger of eternal suffering.

†. Rom 8:9 . . If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not
belong to Christ.

While we're on 1John 1:8-10, there's an interesting statement in John's first
epistle that seems to contradict himself that goes like this:

†. 1John 3:9 . .Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed
remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

What that says to me is that the product of a birth as per John 3:3-8 is
110% sinless and never needs confession. That is very interesting.

One Sunday morning a man in our adult Bible class asked the instructor
what happens when believers leave this life with un-confessed sins. Well;
the instructor that morning was distracted and didn't answer the question;
but I couldn't get it out of my mind for the rest of the day until it finally
dawned on me that only the product of a birth as per John 3:3-8 enters the
kingdom of God; while the product of a birth as per Gen 2:7 does not;
and according to Col 2:11 God has a miraculous way of keeping those two
products separate from each other so that the product of a birth as per John
3:3-8 doesn't take any of the Gen 2:7 product's un-confessed sins with it
into the next life because the new man isn't responsible for the old man's
sins.

Cliff
/

 

[mark s]

Gal_5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

I think very few Christians understand this verse. they think this doesn't happen to Christians...in spite of the fact that Paul was writing this to a new testament church. It just doesn't fit into our religious understanding....so we reject this warning as if it were for unbelievers only.


But what is Paul saying...

Grace is a MEANS of perfectly obeying the law of Christ. If we are trying to obey God in our own strength then we are not walking in His grace...but rather our own strength. Now if we were once walking in the resurrection life of Jesus and then decided to try doing something from ourselves...then that is how we fall from grace...or rather the fall from grace causes us to try being obedient from ourselves.

Hi Episkopos,

You'd have to show me this from the passage . . . because that's not what it says to me.

whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

This seems pretty straightforward to me. If you seek to gain God's approval through your good works, then you are not relying on Jesus' finished work. And in this you have fallen from grace.

If you think that good works improve your status with God, this is then from works, not grace.

Is that not what this passage is teaching?

Gal 5:4 (NLT) For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God's grace.

Galatians 5:3-6 ESV
(3) I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.
(4) You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
(5) For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness.
(6) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[haz]

Hello Haz


You are, indeed, assuming.



1 John 1:8 states
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

I don't know what you thought 1 John 1:8 says, but it says this: that if you confess that you sometimes sin (as Episkopos has confessed), you are telling the truth - the truth is in you. The opposite is also true. If you don't confess that you sometimes sin, you are lying, and the truth is not in you.

Your accusation and suggestion was not founded on scripture.

Please read it again.

Hi dragonfly,

As I'm new here I don't know Episkopis as well as you seem to do, in answering on his behalf. So what commandments is he referring to?

Regarding whether Episkopis claimed to know Christ or was a liar breaking the commandments was based on
"1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

As Episkopis claimed he did not perfectly obey the commandments then how does he view himself based on the scripture above?

Your reference to 1John 1:8 is irrelevant and contradicts 1John 2:4