Falling from grace

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Webers_Home

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†. 1 John 2:3-5 . . Now by this we know that we know him: if we keep His
commandments. He who says "I know Him," and doesn't keep his
commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

John didn't make that up. He got it straight from the horses' mouth.

†. John 14:20-21 . .Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the
one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too
will love him and show myself to him.

It appears then, that not everyone passing themselves off as the Lord's
followers actually know him as one friend knows another. In point of fact,
the Lord is very picky about who he permits to get that close.

†. Mtt 11:27 . . No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows
the Father except the Son: and those to whom the Son selects to reveal
him.

I've no doubt that there's a pretty good number of Christians out and about
who, when they meet Christ in person, will be meeting a total stranger

†. John 15:14 . .You are my friends, if you do whatsoever I command you.

Yet many of them are fond of saying: What would Jesus do? Haw! they
haven't a clue what he would do because they don't even know the man.
And their prayers?

†. John 15:7 . . If you abide in me, and my words abide in you-- you will ask
what you desire, and it shall be done for you.

†. 1John 3:22 . . And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we
keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

Just for the exercise of it; I spent a few months one year going through the New
Testament searching for his commandments and the things that are pleasing in
his sight. Guess how many I found. Two? Haw! closer to 500, and that's just Acts,
the epistles, and the book of Revelation. No doubt I would have found a whole lot
more than 500 had the Gospels been included in my search.

Cliff
/
 

Episkopos

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Hi Episkopos,

You'd have to show me this from the passage . . . because that's not what it says to me.

whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

This seems pretty straightforward to me. If you seek to gain God's approval through your good works, then you are not relying on Jesus' finished work. And in this you have fallen from grace.

If you think that good works improve your status with God, this is then from works, not grace.

Is that not what this passage is teaching?

Gal 5:4 (NLT) For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God's grace.

Galatians 5:3-6 ESV
(3) I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.
(4) You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
(5) For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness.
(6) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

Love in Christ,
Mark


It's not about trusting in Jesus for your salvation. That is a human past time that has nothing to do with the eternal reality of the kingdom. It is about abiding in Christ daily and walking as Jesus walked. We are to conform to Christ through the death of the old man and the release of the Spirit in our hearts. When we do this we walk in His power and don't sin. That is the power of the gospel. So salvation is for right now....not a long range trusting in the future. That long range aspiration is called hope. But how can we hope for something we are not investing in today? We do reap what we sow.
So if we are still walking in our own strength we seek to surrender and return to a full dependence on God in order to be partakers of His present grace that overcomes sin. But His strength is made perfect in our weakness. So we need to let go our notions and salvation aspirations and what we think our status is and turn to the living God i order to walk in truth...not just our notions. It is normal for Christians to act like the Galatians. We start with a new spiritual life and then we go on in the flesh and become more and more religious and opinionated....but without the life.

.
†. 1 John 2:3-5 . . Now by this we know that we know him: if we keep His
commandments. He who says "I know Him," and doesn't keep his
commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

John didn't make that up. He got it straight from the horses' mouth.

†. John 14:20-21 . .Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the
one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too
will love him and show myself to him.

It appears then, that not everyone passing themselves off as the Lord's
followers actually know him as one friend knows another. In point of fact,
the Lord is very picky about who he permits to get that close.

†. Mtt 11:27 . . No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows
the Father except the Son: and those to whom the Son selects to reveal
him.

I've no doubt that there's a pretty good number of Christians out and about
who, when they meet Christ in person, will be meeting a total stranger

†. John 15:14 . .You are my friends, if you do whatsoever I command you.

Yet many of them are fond of saying: What would Jesus do? Haw! they
haven't a clue what he would do because they don't even know the man.
And their prayers?

†. John 15:7 . . If you abide in me, and my words abide in you-- you will ask
what you desire, and it shall be done for you.

†. 1John 3:22 . . And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we
keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

Just for the exercise of it; I spent a few months one year going through the New
Testament searching for his commandments and the things that are pleasing in
his sight. Guess how many I found. Two? Haw! closer to 500, and that's just Acts,
the epistles, and the book of Revelation. No doubt I would have found a whole lot
more than 500 had the Gospels been included in my search.

Cliff
/

So then if we are not able to keep the commandments of God perfectly then we either are not walking in grace or indeed have fallen from it. Sin proves that we are not abiding in Christ. The law is simply revealing who we are.

1Pe_2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
 

Webers_Home

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So then if we are not able to keep the commandments of God perfectly then
we either are not walking in grace or indeed have fallen from it.

Within the context of the epistle to the Galatians, falling from grace is
defined as switching from the new covenant back to the old one.

The commandments about which the Lord spoke at John 14:20-21 and John
15:14, and those about which John wrote at 1John 2:3-5, and 1John 3:22
are not the commandments of the old covenant; but rather, the
commandments that Christ has set forth for his church; and they're found
mostly in Acts, the epistles, and in the book of Revelation.

It is impossible for Christ's church to fall from grace by disobeying his
commandments because it is by grace itself that his church has been saved
in the first place rather than by obedience to commandments. In order for
Christ's church to fall from grace by disobeying his commandments, it would
be necessary to re-define grace and make it a wage that one earns rather
than generosity one is given free of charge with no strings attached.

Here in the state of Oregon it's common to see people down on their luck
standing by the roadside with a cardboard sign seeking a little sympathy.
When I give them a coin or two, it's not because they earned it; no, it's
simply because I feel sorry for them and want to help out; which is a pretty
accurate depiction of God's love at John 3:14-18.

The very reason for saving people by grace rather than by rules is so that
everyone has a shot at paradise regardless of their degree of piety. In point
of fact, piety can actually hurt one's shot at paradise. It is actually easier for
a porn star to escape the wrath of God than the Pope in Rome. Not that
there's anything intrinsically wrong with being a Pope-- it's just that a Pope
probably feels he deserves to escape whereas the porn star is fully dependant
upon his rescue being an act of charity rather than something that comes at a
price he cannot possibly pay.

Cliff
/
 

Episkopos

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Within the context of the epistle to the Galatians, falling from grace is
defined as switching from the new covenant back to the old one.

The commandments about which the Lord spoke at John 14:20-21 and John
15:14, and those about which John wrote at 1John 2:3-5, and 1John 3:22
are not the commandments of the old covenant; but rather, the
commandments that Christ has set forth for his church; and they're found
mostly in Acts, the epistles, and in the book of Revelation.

It is impossible for Christ's church to fall from grace by disobeying his
commandments because it is by grace itself that his church has been saved
in the first place rather than by obedience to commandments. In order for
Christ's church to fall from grace by disobeying his commandments, it would
be necessary to re-define grace and make it a wage that one earns rather
than generosity one is given free of charge with no strings attached.

Here in the state of Oregon it's common to see people down on their luck
standing by the roadside with a cardboard sign seeking a little sympathy.
When I give them a coin or two, it's not because they earned it; no, it's
simply because I feel sorry for them and want to help out; which is a pretty
accurate depiction of God's love at John 3:14-18.

The very reason for saving people by grace rather than by rules is so that
everyone has a shot at paradise regardless of their degree of piety. In point
of fact, piety can actually hurt one's shot at paradise. It is actually easier for
a porn star to escape the wrath of God than the Pope in Rome. Not that
there's anything intrinsically wrong with being a Pope-- it's just that a Pope
probably feels he deserves to escape whereas the porn star is fully dependant
upon his rescue being an act of charity rather than something that comes at a
price he cannot possibly pay.

Cliff
/

You are perhaps confusing mercy with grace. We are saved from our sins by becoming empowered by grace. Mercy means that we are forgiven when we sin. God IS merciful. But God has always been merciful. Jesus didn't die so that the Father could become merciful. That is a backwards Christianity. The truth is that Jesus came to empower men to become a new creation in Himself thus reconciling us to God. Not just by mercy but by a diffusion of grace power to actually be just like Jesus through a new creation according to the Spirit. Have you heard of this new Spiritual birth?
 
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mark s

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It's not about trusting in Jesus for your salvation. That is a human past time that has nothing to do with the eternal reality of the kingdom. It is about abiding in Christ daily and walking as Jesus walked. We are to conform to Christ through the death of the old man and the release of the Spirit in our hearts. When we do this we walk in His power and don't sin. That is the power of the gospel. So salvation is for right now....not a long range trusting in the future. That long range aspiration is called hope. But how can we hope for something we are not investing in today? We do reap what we sow.
So if we are still walking in our own strength we seek to surrender and return to a full dependence on God in order to be partakers of His present grace that overcomes sin. But His strength is made perfect in our weakness. So we need to let go our notions and salvation aspirations and what we think our status is and turn to the living God i order to walk in truth...not just our notions. It is normal for Christians to act like the Galatians. We start with a new spiritual life and then we go on in the flesh and become more and more religious and opinionated....but without the life.

Hi Episkopos,

I would dare say this passage is EXACTLY about trusting Jesus for your salvation, OR trusting your works for your salvation. Either you are justified - declared/rendered Not Guilty - by works of Law or by faith in Jesus. This is the teaching of this passage of Scripture.

Based on what you've written here, either I've entirely misunderstood you, or we have very different ideas about what "salvation" is.

To tell the truth, I don't really know what you mean in much what what you've written, as you are not really using Biblical terminology. A number of the terms you are using, I don't know what you mean by them. Let me take this from a different direction.

Do you believe that we are "regenerated", or "born again", in which God re-creates us as a new creation, with a new nature, and that this occurs as a completed act at the time we believe in Jesus, and receive His ala John 1?

Do you believe we have two natures concurrently, the "old nature" that sins, and the "new nature" that does not sin?

Do you believe that this "new nature", the "new man", is permanent?

It sure sounds to me that you are saying our salvation is something we work for. But that doesn't sound like you, in the little I've come to know you.

In what you wrote to Cliff, you said,

We are saved from our sins by becoming empowered by grace. Mercy means that we are forgiven when we sin. God IS merciful. But God has always been merciful. Jesus didn't die so that the Father could become merciful. That is a backwards Christianity. The truth is that Jesus came to empower men to become a new creation in Himself thus reconciling us to God. Not just by mercy but by a diffusion of grace power to actually be just like Jesus through a new creation according to the Spirit. Have you heard of this new Spiritual birth?

I would put this differently. I would say that we are saved from our sins by the guilt of our sins being transfered to Jesus when He died. His sacrifice reconciled ud to
God, in that as Jesus paid our penalty, God no longer counted our sins against us. When we receive Jesus, then we receive this reconciliation. And having received the reconciliation - through faith in Jesus - we are at peace with God.

The new creation comes as a sovereign act of God, the one prerequisite that we receive Jesus, believing in His Name. God re-creates us as His children with His nature. As we bore the nature of Adam, now we bear the nature of God Himself.

The process of our regeneration is through death and resurrection. We are mystically joined to Jesus as He died, was buried, and raised to life. In His death we die to our flesh nature, to our sin, and to the Law. In His resurrection we are raised a new creature, free from the power of sin, free from the fallen nature our flesh, free from the Law.

Our new nature is created patterned after God, in righteousness and holiness, and will always do what pleases God. Our old nature cannot please God, and will always do wickedness. As we walk in the spirit - living out that new nature - we will be doing the works God wants us to do. When we allow the old nature to control the body, and to perform its works, these will never be the works God wants for us, and will be the sin that we - the new man - hate.

But whether or not we are walking in the spirit, doing the works God has preordained for us, or walking according to the flesh, doing the works of the flesh, our salvation - acceptance by God - remains based on our faith in Jesus Christ, and that God has made us His children, and nothing can change that.

To fall from grace is to begin to think that our acceptance by God is based on our behavior, whether good or bad. In the Galatians' case, that being circumcised made them more acceptable to God.

God has predestined us to be conform to Jesus' likeness. Being His children, this will absolutely happen.

Are we saying the same thing, in different ways?

Love in Christ,
Mark
 

Episkopos

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Hi Episkopos,

I would dare say this passage is EXACTLY about trusting Jesus for your salvation, OR trusting your works for your salvation. Either you are justified - declared/rendered Not Guilty - by works of Law or by faith in Jesus. This is the teaching of this passage of Scripture.

Based on what you've written here, either I've entirely misunderstood you, or we have very different ideas about what "salvation" is.

To tell the truth, I don't really know what you mean in much what what you've written, as you are not really using Biblical terminology. A number of the terms you are using, I don't know what you mean by them. Let me take this from a different direction.

Do you believe that we are "regenerated", or "born again", in which God re-creates us as a new creation, with a new nature, and that this occurs as a completed act at the time we believe in Jesus, and receive His ala John 1?

Do you believe we have two natures concurrently, the "old nature" that sins, and the "new nature" that does not sin?

Do you believe that this "new nature", the "new man", is permanent?

It sure sounds to me that you are saying our salvation is something we work for. But that doesn't sound like you, in the little I've come to know you.

In what you wrote to Cliff, you said,



I would put this differently. I would say that we are saved from our sins by the guilt of our sins being transfered to Jesus when He died. His sacrifice reconciled ud to
God, in that as Jesus paid our penalty, God no longer counted our sins against us. When we receive Jesus, then we receive this reconciliation. And having received the reconciliation - through faith in Jesus - we are at peace with God.

The new creation comes as a sovereign act of God, the one prerequisite that we receive Jesus, believing in His Name. God re-creates us as His children with His nature. As we bore the nature of Adam, now we bear the nature of God Himself.

The process of our regeneration is through death and resurrection. We are mystically joined to Jesus as He died, was buried, and raised to life. In His death we die to our flesh nature, to our sin, and to the Law. In His resurrection we are raised a new creature, free from the power of sin, free from the fallen nature our flesh, free from the Law.

Our new nature is created patterned after God, in righteousness and holiness, and will always do what pleases God. Our old nature cannot please God, and will always do wickedness. As we walk in the spirit - living out that new nature - we will be doing the works God wants us to do. When we allow the old nature to control the body, and to perform its works, these will never be the works God wants for us, and will be the sin that we - the new man - hate.

But whether or not we are walking in the spirit, doing the works God has preordained for us, or walking according to the flesh, doing the works of the flesh, our salvation - acceptance by God - remains based on our faith in Jesus Christ, and that God has made us His children, and nothing can change that.

To fall from grace is to begin to think that our acceptance by God is based on our behavior, whether good or bad. In the Galatians' case, that being circumcised made them more acceptable to God.

God has predestined us to be conform to Jesus' likeness. Being His children, this will absolutely happen.

Are we saying the same thing, in different ways?

Love in Christ,
Mark

Actually the faith in Christ is a means of living and acting (behaving). The resurrection of Jesus followed the cross. This means that when we walk by the newnes of life we don't need to be constantly forgiven for what we are still unable to do. Do you believe in the new nature that is without sin? or not?

I do believe that a regenerated person has a new nature and the old is done away with. However, we can still sin through a lack of faith and a turning away from the presence of the Lord. Satan was perfect as well before he fell...as was Adam. So we can stray very easily. But in Christ we walk as He walked. So rather than attempt tp please God in our own strength...we abide in Christ who is already our perfection. That is the living way of holiness IN Christ.
 

dragonfly

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It is impossible for Christ's church to fall from grace by disobeying his
commandments because it is by grace itself that his church has been saved
in the first place rather than by obedience to commandments. In order for
Christ's church to fall from grace by disobeying his commandments, it would
be necessary to re-define grace and make it a wage that one earns rather
than generosity one is given free of charge with no strings attached.

There is a truth in what you've written here, but I would qualify it this way. The Church is the Body of Christ, His individual members. Each person is saved individually according to their personal response to the gospel, and within their on-going relationship with the Lord. We need only read the end of Matthew 7 to know that outward conformity may be a sham, but the Lord knows the difference, and will judge according to truth.

Grace is available to those who operate faith. Every moment of unbelief hinders the individual from living in the grace which is, as you say, always available. It is not really given 'with no strings attached' though. It is given because the price of our redemption was paid by the Son of God. That may be 'free' to us, but it was not 'free' to Him. We must never forget that.

Paul says this about grace, and I feel it is the standard. It's this to which Episkopos is referring, and the fact that it is possible to stop walking in the power of the Spirit though faith, and to stop the operation of grace in our experience.

Grace is the power to do the right thing - to 'be' at that moment, wholly pleasing to God by the outworking of the life of the new man, in fact (not just theory). In my view, 1 John 1:7 makes a vital statement which every Christian should believe and do.


Ephesians 3:2b '... grace of God which is given me to you-ward'. Do you see that grace operates with a purpose in mind?

Ephesians 3: '... I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. What is the power to which Paul is referring? He has already described it in

Ephesians 1: ,... the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead...'

How do we get this power working in us? We agree to be grafted into the death of Christ. Then we can be raised in Him.

The Church is the body of individual people who have believed into the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Hi Haz, Sorry it's taken a while to get back to you.

Haz asked Episkopos

Hi Episkopis,

Not sure what your doctrine is so I'll ask some questions to help clarify things.

Are you perfectly obeying the law?

Have you ever fallen from grace?

Episkopos answered
no and yes

Then you substituted 'the law' by bringing in 'the 10 commandments', obviously, by your later post, knowing that this was a straw man. :unsure: That seems unfair, when all you needed to do was post the verses which were on your mind. :)

About the apparent contradiction between 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 2:4, probably a separate thread would be required to thrash out John's use of the word sin, and law, and, commandments. And I probably should have butted out rather than in!
 

Episkopos

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There is a truth in what you've written here, but I would qualify it this way. The Church is the Body of Christ, His individual members. Each person is saved individually according to their personal response to the gospel, and within their on-going relationship with the Lord. We need only read the end of Matthew 7 to know that outward conformity may be a sham, but the Lord knows the difference, and will judge according to truth.

Grace is available to those who operate faith. Every moment of unbelief hinders the individual from living in the grace which is, as you say, always available. It is not really given 'with no strings attached' though. It is given because the price of our redemption was paid by the Son of God. That may be 'free' to us, but it was not 'free' to Him. We must never forget that.

Paul says this about grace, and I feel it is the standard. It's this to which Episkopos is referring, and the fact that it is possible to stop walking in the power of the Spirit though faith, and to stop the operation of grace in our experience.

Grace is the power to do the right thing - to 'be' at that moment, wholly pleasing to God by the outworking of the life of the new man, in fact (not just theory). In my view, 1 John 1:7 makes a vital statement which every Christian should believe and do.


Ephesians 3:2b '... grace of God which is given me to you-ward'. Do you see that grace operates with a purpose in mind?

Ephesians 3: '... I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. What is the power to which Paul is referring? He has already described it in

Ephesians 1: ,... the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead...'

How do we get this power working in us? We agree to be grafted into the death of Christ. Then we can be raised in Him.

The Church is the body of individual people who have believed into the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Hi Haz, Sorry it's taken a while to get back to you.

Haz asked Episkopos



Then you substituted 'the law' by bringing in 'the 10 commandments', obviously, by your later post, knowing that this was a straw man. :unsure: That seems unfair, when all you needed to do was post the verses which were on your mind. :)

About the apparent contradiction between 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 2:4, probably a separate thread would be required to thrash out John's use of the word sin, and law, and, commandments. And I probably should have butted out rather than in!

1 John 1:8 was written to counter the gnostic notion that it is not we that sin when we sin but the body...of which we are no longer responsible. It was never meant as people use it today...to contradict the rest of the letter. One is always responsible for committed sins. But John goes on to say that in Christ we cannot sin. This seeems too confusing for most to grasp as they are looking for the very thing (an excuse) that John was writing against. Overcoming sin is not to explain it away through an irresponsibility or else God turning a blind eye to it. Sin is overcome through the power of grace.
 

Webers_Home

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Gal_5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are
justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. - - I think very few Christians
understand this verse.

Well; judging from the utter lack of consensus on this thread; I'd say it's
more like zero than few.

†. 1Cor 1:10 . . I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus
Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no
divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and
thought.

Uh-Huh . . . well good luck with that!

The US Supreme Court consists of nine justices who are supposed to be
constitutional experts; yet they're seldom unanimous on anything. And they
don't write absolutes; no, they write opinions; which is exactly what
Christians do. There's something mighty perverse about that.

†. 1Cor 1:13 . . Is Christ divided?

Apparently.

Since converting from Roman Catholicism to Protestantism in 1968, I've sat
under the best of them: Billy Graham, J.Vernon McGee, Lester Rolloff, Spiros
Zodhiates, Ord Morrow, and Ted Epp; et al. And I've read books by the likes
of Ironsides, Pentecost, Frydland, Dobson, et al. Well . . I've come to the
conclusion that nobody knows what the he$$ they're talking about. It's all
just ex cathedral bee-ess; therefore I say to brand new Christians: caveat
lector, and good luck in finding your way because you won't find it on the
internet; I can assure you.

You know what I think? I think that when those who make it to heaven
arrive; they're immediately sent off to gulags for deprogramming and
re-education to get all the bad interpretations out of their heads so that
1Cor 1:10 can be made a reality.

†. Isa 11:9 . . for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of The Lord, as the
waters cover the sea.

Well; that sure isn't true for the moment; not even among Christians; who you'd
think by now would have it all down pat.

Cliff
/
 

Episkopos

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Well; judging from the utter lack of consensus on this thread; I'd say it's
more like zero than few.

†. 1Cor 1:10 . . I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus
Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no
divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and
thought.

Uh-Huh . . . well good luck with that!

The US Supreme Court consists of nine justices who are supposed to be
constitutional experts; yet they're seldom unanimous on anything. And they
don't write absolutes; no, they write opinions; which is exactly what
Christians do. There's something mighty perverse about that.

†. 1Cor 1:13 . . Is Christ divided?

Apparently.

Since converting from Roman Catholicism to Protestantism in 1968, I've sat
under the best of them: Billy Graham, J.Vernon McGee, Lester Rolloff, Spiros
Zodhiates, Ord Morrow, and Ted Epp; et al. And I've read books by the likes
of Ironsides, Pentecost, Frydland, Dobson, et al. Well . . I've come to the
conclusion that nobody knows what the he$$ they're talking about. It's all
just ex cathedral bee-ess; therefore I say to brand new Christians: caveat
lector, and good luck in finding your way because you won't find it on the
internet; I can assure you.

You know what I think? I think that when those who make it to heaven
arrive; they're immediately sent off to gulags for deprogramming and
re-education to get all the bad interpretations out of their heads so that
1Cor 1:10 can be made a reality.

†. Isa 11:9 . . for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of The Lord, as the
waters cover the sea.

Well; that sure isn't true for the moment; not even among Christians; who you'd
think by now would have it all down pat.

Cliff
/

The unity is only in the Spirit. We show our disunity when we seek to understand the bible on our own...or through a method we have learned from men. The truth lies deeper than most are willing to venture. Consequently it is too easy to settle for a gospel that does not contain that revolutionary power that changed the world in the first century.

Since that time the gospel has been watered down to the point that there is no more offence to the cross of Christ. We are truly living in the time of the Laodiceans whereby we have settled for an unreality and a popular belief in a "magic" gospel that ensures the rich for a good time after a life lived to the fullest according to the flesh.
 

mark s

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A believer in immunity??? Jesus Christ sets us free from the law of sin and death through the cross...we die in Jesus so that we can be raised in newness of life in Jesus according to the power of the life to come. Anything other than that is based on fables.

Hi Episkopos,

You state . . .

"we die in Jesus so that we can be raised in newness of life in Jesus . . ."

To clarify . . .

Colossians 3:1-4 LITV
(1) If, then, you were raised with Christ, seek the things above, where Christ is sitting at the right of God;
(2) mind the things above, not the things on the earth.
(3) For you died, and your life has been hidden with Christ in God.
(4) Whenever Christ our life is revealed, then also you will be revealed with Him in glory.

We have both died with Christ, and have been raised with Christ.

In fact we do have immunity, demonstrated in this passage. "When Christ our life is revealed, then also you will be revealed with Him in glory."

If you have died in Christ, you will be revealed with Him in glory. No Fail.

Another passage where we see the same thing:

1 John 3:2 "Beloved, now we are the children of God, and it was not yet revealed what we shall be. But we know that if He is revealed, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him as He is."

If you are a child of God, you will be like Him when you see Him. Again . . . No Fail.

Episkopos, I would challenge you . . . support your statements with Scripture.

These are very simply stated truths supported directly by Scripture.

Love in Christ,
Mark
 

haz

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Then you substituted 'the law' by bringing in 'the 10 commandments', obviously, by your later post, knowing that this was a straw man. :unsure: That seems unfair, when all you needed to do was post the verses which were on your mind. :)

About the apparent contradiction between 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 2:4, probably a separate thread would be required to thrash out John's use of the word sin, and law, and, commandments. And I probably should have butted out rather than in!

Hi dragonfly,

There was no straw man as you presumed.
The 10 commandments are commonly referred to as the law.

I had asked earlier what commandments you were referring to in answering for Episkopis, but got no answer.
It is difficult to discuss things if you don't clarify your points with scripture.
 

Webers_Home

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A believer in immunity??? Jesus Christ sets us free from the law of sin and
death through the cross

†. Rom 8:1-2 . .There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ
Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free
from the law of sin and death.

The law of sin and death is stated as follows:

†. Rom 6:23 . . For the wages of sin is death

If the Lord's crucifixion liberated me from the jurisdiction of that law; then
how is it that a certain person around here is denying that I presently don't
have immunity from prosecution for my sins? Am I somehow
misunderstanding what Paul means by now no condemnation? Does "now"
mean something other than what Webster's defines it? Well; English is my
native tongue. I know for myself-- from 68 years of practical experience with
the English language --what the word "now" means. Nobody has to define it
for me. You know; I'm beginning to suspect that somebody around here has
flown over the cuckoo's nest; and I'm not talking about Jack Nicholson.

we die in Jesus so that we can be raised in newness of life in Jesus according
to the power of the life to come.

A believer's resurrection is in two tenses-- past and future --and the tense
that's most important to me for right now is the past tense.

†. John 5:24 . . I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word, and believes
Him who sent me, has eternal life . . . he has crossed over from death to
life.

Am I wrong in construing the words "has crossed over from death to life" as
indicating a past-tense resurrection? Well; according to the grammar of the
English language "crossed" is past tense. Well then since I have already
crossed over from death to life, then the words "will not be condemned" also
apply to me.

†. John 5:24 . . I tell you the truth: whoever hears my word, and believes
Him who sent me . . . will not be condemned

But that's not all. There's also the benefit of eternal life to consider.

†. John 5:24 . . I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word, and believes
Him who sent me, has eternal life

According to my native tongue's grammar; the verb "has" is present tense;
not future, indicating that believers have eternal life right now-- no delay
and no waiting period.

For those who don't know; eternal life is a kind of life that's impervious to
death. It not only can't die; but it can't be killed either; which brings me
back full circle to the law of sin and death.

†. Rom 6:23 . . For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal
life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eternal life can neither die nor be killed; so then, duh, it's impervious to the
wages of sin.

Note: the koiné Greek word for "gift" is charisma (khar'-is-mah) which
means: a gratuity. Webster's defines a gratuity as: something given
voluntarily and/or beyond obligation. In other words: gifts (true gifts) are
expressions of altruism; which Webster's defines as unselfish regard for, or
devotion to, the welfare of others. For example:

†. John 3:16 . . For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only
son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

American consumers don't trust gifts. In point of fact, many of us hate talk
of gifts. Advertisers insult our intelligence all the time with offers of free gifts
that we know from experience aren't really free. No; free gifts are typically
merchandizing gimmicks with strings attached in order to get us to buy something
or sit through a sales pitch so it's no surprise that Americans have trouble believing
eternal life is really as free as its claimed to be.

†. John 4:10 . . Jesus answered her: If you knew the gift of God, and who it
is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have
given you living water.

Living water is of course eternal life; and according to Jesus; it's a gratuity:
a token of good will from God's house to yours --with no strings attached,
and nothing asked in return.

†. Rev 22:17 . .The Spirit and the bride say: Come. And let him who hears
say: Come. Whoever is thirsty, let him come. And whoever wishes, let him
take the free gift of the water of life.

Cliff
/
 

Episkopos

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†. Rom 8:1-2 . .There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ
Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free
from the law of sin and death.

The law of sin and death is stated as follows:

†. Rom 6:23 . . For the wages of sin is death

If the Lord's crucifixion liberated me from the jurisdiction of that law; then
how is it that a certain person around here is denying that I presently don't
have immunity from prosecution for my sins? Am I somehow
misunderstanding what Paul means by now no condemnation? Does "now"
mean something other than what Webster's defines it? Well; English is my
native tongue. I know for myself-- from 68 years of practical experience with
the English language --what the word "now" means. Nobody has to define it
for me. You know; I'm beginning to suspect that somebody around here has
flown over the cuckoo's nest; and I'm not talking about Jack Nicholson.



A believer's resurrection is in two tenses-- past and future --and the tense
that's most important to me for right now is the past tense.

†. John 5:24 . . I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word, and believes
Him who sent me, has eternal life . . . he has crossed over from death to
life.

Am I wrong in construing the words "has crossed over from death to life" as
indicating a past-tense resurrection? Well; according to the grammar of the
English language "crossed" is past tense. Well then since I have already
crossed over from death to life, then the words "will not be condemned" also
apply to me.

†. John 5:24 . . I tell you the truth: whoever hears my word, and believes
Him who sent me . . . will not be condemned

But that's not all. There's also the benefit of eternal life to consider.

†. John 5:24 . . I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word, and believes
Him who sent me, has eternal life

According to my native tongue's grammar; the verb "has" is present tense;
not future, indicating that believers have eternal life right now-- no delay
and no waiting period.

For those who don't know; eternal life is a kind of life that's impervious to
death. It not only can't die; but it can't be killed either; which brings me
back full circle to the law of sin and death.

†. Rom 6:23 . . For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal
life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eternal life can neither die nor be killed; so then, duh, it's impervious to the
wages of sin.

Note: the koiné Greek word for "gift" is charisma (khar'-is-mah) which
means: a gratuity. Webster's defines a gratuity as: something given
voluntarily and/or beyond obligation. In other words: gifts (true gifts) are
expressions of altruism; which Webster's defines as unselfish regard for, or
devotion to, the welfare of others. For example:

†. John 3:16 . . For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only
son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

American consumers don't trust gifts. In point of fact, many of us hate talk
of gifts. Advertisers insult our intelligence all the time with offers of free gifts
that we know from experience aren't really free. No; free gifts are typically
merchandizing gimmicks with strings attached in order to get us to buy something
or sit through a sales pitch so it's no surprise that Americans have trouble believing
eternal life is really as free as its claimed to be.

†. John 4:10 . . Jesus answered her: If you knew the gift of God, and who it
is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have
given you living water.

Living water is of course eternal life; and according to Jesus; it's a gratuity:
a token of good will from God's house to yours --with no strings attached,
and nothing asked in return.

†. Rev 22:17 . .The Spirit and the bride say: Come. And let him who hears
say: Come. Whoever is thirsty, let him come. And whoever wishes, let him
take the free gift of the water of life.

Cliff
/

Is the gospel about a word study or power?
 

mark s

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Is the gospel about a word study or power?

The Gospel is expressed in God's Word. Words have meaning. Our ideas about what the Gospel is must be in harmony with what God's Word says.

Why, Episkopos, do you disparage or otherwise downplay the study of God's Word?

Love in Christ,
Mark
 

Episkopos

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The Gospel is expressed in God's Word. Words have meaning. Our ideas about what the Gospel is must be in harmony with what God's Word says.

Why, Episkopos, do you disparage or otherwise downplay the study of God's Word?

Love in Christ,
Mark

I would ask why the word is made to say something far different than what is really saying! The gospel is not just in word but in power. So to leave the bible as a study of words only is to misunderstand the bible. We will not be judged by how much we have read or studied the bible...but on what power we have walked in.
 

mark s

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I would ask why the word is made to say something far different than what is really saying! The gospel is not just in word but in power. So to leave the bible as a study of words only is to misunderstand the bible. We will not be judged by how much we have read or studied the bible...but on what power we have walked in.

As we disagree over matters, the Bible is our authority.

Who says we leave it as a study of words only??? That's a distraction from what is happening here.

Before you asked, is it a word study or power. You make it either/or. Now you are saying, it is in word and power. But the words tell us what the power is.

The reality is that the Gospel is a message expressed in words of God's power in our lives.

My statements have been very simple, and based on Scriptures. Cliff's are the same, in my view. Personally, I find your statements somewhat incomprehensible. I'd like to see you make these same sorts of simple statements, alongside the Bible passages that teach these things.

Personally, I'm getting the idea that there is a layer underneath what you are expressing that you are not quite putting out there. JMHO.

Love in Christ,
Mark
 

dragonfly

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Strong's definitions 1 Corinthians 2:4

And
New Testament Greek Definition:
2532 kai {kahee}
apparently, a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes
also a cumulative force;; conj
AV - and 8172, also 514, even 108, both 43, then 20, so 18,
likewise 13, not tr. 348, misc 32, vr and 1; 9249
1) and, also, even, indeed, but
++++
Frequency count based on 1894 Scrivener Greek New Testament.
my
New Testament Greek Definition:
3450 mou {moo}
the simpler form of 1700;; pron
AV - my 501, me 52, mine 19, I 11, mine own 4; 587
1) I, me, my, of me
speech
New Testament Greek Definition:
3056 logos {log'-os}
from 3004; TDNT - 4:69,505; n m
AV - word 218, saying 50, account 8, speech 8, Word (Christ) 7,
thing 5, not tr 2, misc 32; 330
1) of speech
1a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
1b) what someone has said
1b1) a word
1b2) the sayings of God
1b3) decree, mandate or order
1b4) of the moral precepts given by God
1b5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
1b6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a
weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim
1c) discourse
1c1) the act of speaking, speech
1c2) the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking
1c3) a kind or style of speaking
1c4) a continuous speaking discourse - instruction
1d) doctrine, teaching
1e) anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative
1f) matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter
in dispute, case, suit at law
1g) the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed
2) its use as respect to the MIND alone
2a) reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating,
reasoning, calculating
2b) account, i.e. regard, consideration
2c) account, i.e. reckoning, score
2d) account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment
2e) relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation
2e1) reason would
2f) reason, cause, ground
3) In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the
personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in
creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the
world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement
of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the
Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth
conspicuously from His words and deeds.
++++
A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around
600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a
changing universe. This word was well suited to John's purpose in
John 1.
and
New Testament Greek Definition:
2532 kai {kahee}
apparently, a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes
also a cumulative force;; conj
AV - and 8172, also 514, even 108, both 43, then 20, so 18,
likewise 13, not tr. 348, misc 32, vr and 1; 9249
1) and, also, even, indeed, but
++++
Frequency count based on 1894 Scrivener Greek New Testament.
my
New Testament Greek Definition:
3450 mou {moo}
the simpler form of 1700;; pron
AV - my 501, me 52, mine 19, I 11, mine own 4; 587
1) I, me, my, of me
preaching
New Testament Greek Definition:
2782 kerugma {kay'-roog-mah}
from 2784; TDNT - 3:714,430; n n
AV - preaching 8; 8
1) that which is proclaimed by a herald or public crier, a
proclamation by herald
2) in the NT the message or proclamation of the heralds of God or
Christ
[was] not
New Testament Greek Definition:
3756 ou {oo} also (before a vowel) ouk {ook} and
(before an aspirate) ouch {ookh}
a primary word, the absolute negative [cf 3361] adverb;; particle
AV - not 1214, no 136, cannot + 1410 55, misc 48; 1453
1) no, not; in direct questions expecting an affirmative answer
Wigram's frequency count is 1537 not 1453.
with
New Testament Greek Definition:
1722 en {en}
a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time
or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or
constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between
1519 and 1537); TDNT - 2:537,233; prep
AV - in 1874, by 141, with 134, among 117, at 112, on 46,
through 37, misc 321; 2782
1) in, by, with etc.
Wigram's frequency count is 2799 not 2782.
enticing
New Testament Greek Definition:
3981 peithos {pi-thos'} or peitho {pi-tho'}
from 3982; TDNT - 6:8,818; adj
AV - enticing 1; 1
1) persuasive
words
New Testament Greek Definition:
3056 logos {log'-os}
from 3004; TDNT - 4:69,505; n m
AV - word 218, saying 50, account 8, speech 8, Word (Christ) 7,
thing 5, not tr 2, misc 32; 330
1) of speech
1a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
1b) what someone has said
1b1) a word
1b2) the sayings of God
1b3) decree, mandate or order
1b4) of the moral precepts given by God
1b5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
1b6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a
weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim
1c) discourse
1c1) the act of speaking, speech
1c2) the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking
1c3) a kind or style of speaking
1c4) a continuous speaking discourse - instruction
1d) doctrine, teaching
1e) anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative
1f) matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter
in dispute, case, suit at law
1g) the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed
2) its use as respect to the MIND alone
2a) reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating,
reasoning, calculating
2b) account, i.e. regard, consideration
2c) account, i.e. reckoning, score
2d) account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment
2e) relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation
2e1) reason would
2f) reason, cause, ground
3) In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the
personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in
creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the
world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement
of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the
Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth
conspicuously from His words and deeds.
++++
A Greek philosopher named Heraclitus first used the term Logos around
600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a
changing universe. This word was well suited to John's purpose in
John 1.
of man's
New Testament Greek Definition:
442 anthropinos {anth-ro'-pee-nos}
from 444; TDNT - 1:366,59; adj
AV - man's 3, after the manner of man 1, of man 1, common to man 1,
mankind + 5449 1; 7
1) human
1a) applied to things belonging to men
wisdom
New Testament Greek Definition:
4678 sophia {sof-ee'-ah}
from 4680; TDNT - 7:465,1056; n f
AV - wisdom 51; 51
1) wisdom, broad and full of intelligence; used of the knowledge
of very diverse matters
1a) the wisdom which belongs to men
1a1) spec. the varied knowledge of things human and divine,
acquired by acuteness and experience, and summed up in
maxims and proverbs
1a2) the science and learning
1a3) the act of interpreting dreams and always giving the
sagest advice
1a4) the intelligence evinced in discovering the meaning of
some mysterious number or vision
1a5) skill in the management of affairs
1a6) devout and proper prudence in intercourse with men not
disciples of Christ, skill and discretion in imparting
Christian truth
1a7) the knowledge and practice of the requisites for godly
and upright living
1b) supreme intelligence, such as belongs to God
1b1) to Christ
1b2) the wisdom of God as evinced in forming and executing
counsels in the formation and government of the world and
the scriptures
For Synonyms see entry 5826
but
New Testament Greek Definition:
235 alla {al-lah'}
neuter plural of 243;; conj
AV - but 573, yea 15, yet 11, nevertheless 10, howbeit 9, nay 4,
therefore 3, save 2, not tr 2, misc 8; 637
1) but
1a) nevertheless, notwithstanding
1b) an objection
1c) an exception
1d) a restriction
1e) nay, rather, yea, moreover
1f) forms a transition to the cardinal matter
in
New Testament Greek Definition:
1722 en {en}
a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time
or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or
constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between
1519 and 1537); TDNT - 2:537,233; prep
AV - in 1874, by 141, with 134, among 117, at 112, on 46,
through 37, misc 321; 2782
1) in, by, with etc.
Wigram's frequency count is 2799 not 2782.
demonstration
New Testament Greek Definition:
585 apodeixis {ap-od'-ike-sis}
from 584;; n f
AV - demonstration 1; 1
1) a making manifest, showing forth
2) a demonstration, proof
of the Spirit
New Testament Greek Definition:
4151 pneuma {pnyoo'-mah}
from 4154; TDNT - 6:332,876; n n
AV - Spirit 111, Holy Ghost 89, Spirit (of God) 13,
Spirit (of the Lord) 5, (My) Spirit 3, Spirit (of truth) 3,
Spirit (of Christ) 2, human (spirit) 49, (evil) spirit 47,
spirit (general) 26, spirit 8, (Jesus' own) spirit 6,
(Jesus' own) ghost 2, misc 21; 385
1) the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal,
coeternal with the Father and the Son
1a) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his
personality and character (the \\Holy\\ Spirit)
1b) sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work
and power (the Spirit of \\Truth\\)
1c) never referred to as a depersonalised force
2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
2a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels,
thinks, decides
2b) the soul
3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least
all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing,
desiring, deciding, and acting
3a) a life giving spirit
3b) a human soul that has left the body
3c) a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel
3c1) used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived
as inhabiting the bodies of men
3c2) the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest
angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ
4) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul
of any one
4a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
5) a movement of air (a gentle blast)
5a) of the wind, hence the wind itself
5b) breath of nostrils or mouth
and
New Testament Greek Definition:
2532 kai {kahee}
apparently, a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes
also a cumulative force;; conj
AV - and 8172, also 514, even 108, both 43, then 20, so 18,
likewise 13, not tr. 348, misc 32, vr and 1; 9249
1) and, also, even, indeed, but
++++
Frequency count based on 1894 Scrivener Greek New Testament.
of power
New Testament Greek Definition:
1411 dunamis {doo'-nam-is}
from 1410; TDNT - 2:284,186; n f
AV - power 77, mighty work 11, strength 7, miracle 7, might 4,
virtue 3, mighty 2, misc 9; 120
1) strength power, ability
1a) inherent power, power residing in a thing by virtue of its
nature, or which a person or thing exerts and puts forth
1b) power for performing miracles
1c) moral power and excellence of soul
1d) the power and influence which belong to riches and wealth
1e) power and resources arising from numbers
1f) power consisting in or resting upon armies, forces, hosts
For Synonyms see entry 5820

-------------------------------------------------

The word 'power' is sometimes translated 'ability', the Holy Spirit being also the Spirit of enabling. This is something about the operation of grace, too, because we can receive the Holy Spirit's power, but refuse to operate enough faith to walk in the enabling it brings us. This is why Paul wrote, 'I do not frustrate the grace of God', after he had written:

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power [dunamis] of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith:
as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
 

Episkopos

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Hi Episkopos,

You state . . .

"we die in Jesus so that we can be raised in newness of life in Jesus . . ."

To clarify . . .

Colossians 3:1-4 LITV
(1) If, then, you were raised with Christ, seek the things above, where Christ is sitting at the right of God;
(2) mind the things above, not the things on the earth.
(3) For you died, and your life has been hidden with Christ in God.
(4) Whenever Christ our life is revealed, then also you will be revealed with Him in glory.

We have both died with Christ, and have been raised with Christ.

In fact we do have immunity, demonstrated in this passage. "When Christ our life is revealed, then also you will be revealed with Him in glory."

If you have died in Christ, you will be revealed with Him in glory. No Fail.

Another passage where we see the same thing:

1 John 3:2 "Beloved, now we are the children of God, and it was not yet revealed what we shall be. But we know that if He is revealed, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him as He is."

If you are a child of God, you will be like Him when you see Him. Again . . . No Fail.

Episkopos, I would challenge you . . . support your statements with Scripture.

These are very simply stated truths supported directly by Scripture.

Love in Christ,
Mark

I use the same bible as you...and the same verses. But it is the meaning we attach to them that we diverge on. Dead means dead...you are an empty shell now ready to receive a new strength; a strength from above. We only release the life in us when our old lives are brought to nothing. This is very rare these days as it is easier just to declare a scripture and apply it to ourselves rather than meet the conditions that lead to a true walk in Christ.

As we disagree over matters, the Bible is our authority.

Who says we leave it as a study of words only??? That's a distraction from what is happening here.

Before you asked, is it a word study or power. You make it either/or. Now you are saying, it is in word and power. But the words tell us what the power is.

The reality is that the Gospel is a message expressed in words of God's power in our lives.

My statements have been very simple, and based on Scriptures. Cliff's are the same, in my view. Personally, I find your statements somewhat incomprehensible. I'd like to see you make these same sorts of simple statements, alongside the Bible passages that teach these things.

Personally, I'm getting the idea that there is a layer underneath what you are expressing that you are not quite putting out there. JMHO.

Love in Christ,
Mark

We live in a time where Cjristians have chosen to live in an unreality based on a "positional" belief system. The only thing we are missing are the 72 virgins of Islam it seems. Any religion can do this...make outrageous claims to those who adhere to it. But Christianity is based on reality...the same reality we see operating in the universe to make things really happen. So as we truly let go of our lives a supernatural power gets us in it's "tractor beam"; this is the keeping power of God. We actually cannot sin when we are thus captured for the Lord...HE has us in HIS power. Sort of like being possessed (but in a magnificent way). This is why some writers in the NT call thenselves "bondslaves" of Christ. This is not just a catchy name...but a reality.
 

IanLC

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Encounter Team
Mar 22, 2011
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Episkopos in many ways I like your theology it reminds me of the older saints in my church who are strict Holiness people. I agree living holy and progressing in sanctification are works of grace and essential to salvation. Not sinless perfection and legalistic bondage but freedom of holiness and the grace of sanctification.
 
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