False Teaching: Mary died a virgin. Biblical Proof Mary had children.

[PeterAndroz]

John 19:25 is silent about Mary's sister having children.
That is the assumption from your doctrinal tradition.

I think we all know what KNEW means :)

Mat 1:25
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
Gen 4:1
And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
Gen 4:17
And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.
Gen 4:25
And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

 

[Titus]

The Synoptic Gospels already identify her by name as “the mother of James and Joseph/Joses” (Matthew 27:56; Mark 15:40; Mark 16:1; Luke 24:10)

If you repeat this 1,000× it will not become truth.
No where does it tie together these passages you keep citing with Mary's sister being the woman who is the mother of Joses and James.

Catholics like to use sources outside the Bible to try and prove their doctrines are from God.

First century historian Josephus mentions James the brother of Jesus who was called Christ,
(Antiquities 20:9: 1).
Did Josephus not know the difference between brother and cousin?

Philip Schaff, author of the four volume history of the Christian Church, makes this important observation in footnote (Vol. 3, p. 416): They are always called adelphol, James Joseph,or Joses, Simon, and Jude. And adelphai(at least two) Matthew 12:46-47 ; 13:55-56 ; Mk. 3:31-32 ; 6:3 ; 7:3,5,10; Acts 1:14, etc. but no where anepsial, cousins a term well known to N.T. vocabulary (Col. 4:10) or sunegeneis, kinsmen(Mark 6:4; Lk. 1:36,5,8; 2:44; Jn. 18:26; Acts 10:24) or huioi tesadelpes, sisters son(Acts 23:16). This speaks strongly against the cousins theory.

 

[PeterAndroz]

If you repeat this 1,000× it will not become truth.
No where does it tie together these passages you keep citing with Mary's sister being the woman who is the mother of Joses and James.

Catholics like to use sources outside the Bible to try and prove their doctrines are from God.

First century historian Josephus mentions James the brother of Jesus who was called Christ,
(Antiquities 20:9: 1).
Did Josephus not know the difference between brother and cousin?

Philip Schaff, author of the four volume history of the Christian Church, makes this important observation in footnote (Vol. 3, p. 416): They are always called adelphol, James Joseph,or Joses, Simon, and Jude. And adelphai(at least two) Matthew 12:46-47 ; 13:55-56 ; Mk. 3:31-32 ; 6:3 ; 7:3,5,10; Acts 1:14, etc. but no where anepsial, cousins a term well known to N.T. vocabulary (Col. 4:10) or sunegeneis, kinsmen(Mark 6:4; Lk. 1:36,5,8; 2:44; Jn. 18:26; Acts 10:24) or huioi tesadelpes, sisters son(Acts 23:16). This speaks strongly against the cousins theory.

"Catholics like to use sources outside the Bible to try and prove their doctrines as from God.""
Exactly then also write the Magisterium & Catechism as the only correct interpretation of the Bible

 

[Titus]

You’re repeating assertions without engaging the actual textual data. The Synoptic Gospels explicitly identify a woman named Mary as “the mother of James and Joseph/Joses” (Matt 27:56; Mark 15:40; Mark 16:1; Luke 24:10). John 19:25 explicitly identifies that Mary as the wife of Clopas/Cleophas and Mary’s adelphe (“sister; near kinswoman; female relative”), and places her at the cross in the same scene. The New Testament never introduces a second, separate “Mary mother of James and Joseph,” so the only coherent reading is that the Mary named as the mother of those sons in the Synoptics is the same Mary John identifies as the wife of Clopas/Cleophas. That conclusion comes from aligning the Gospel accounts, not from “tradition.” Josephus’s use of adelphos and Schaff’s comments do not change the fact that the NT itself gives one Mary who is the mother of James and Joseph and the wife of Clopas/Cleophas standing beside Mary the Mother of Jesus. To reject the identification, you must produce a verse that distinguishes these two Marys; until you do, your objection is simply assertion, not exegesis.

Hopefully some of your brethren will have an open mind to what I've presented from scripture.
Good night

 

[Marvelloustime]

well of course you believe that . just like folks in the protestant realm believe the same thing about me .
ONLY the sad fact is NONE OF YOU WILL READ that BIBLE for your own selves .
ALL of you sit under pre concieved ideals taught of men . SOME OF IT TRUE , SOME OF IT false .
And yet you will NOT , as THEY DO NOT , read that bible for YOU .
but your so fast to say , I AM the one in error . WELL , you nor they
are really gonna know that , lest YOU OPEN THAT BIBLE FOR YOURSELVES
and learn and THEN let us see just who has been decieved or not .
OPEN that bible mr bread . OPEN that BIBLE .
Go on , YOU WONT Fall dead from a curse if you do it without your leaders saying okay .
GOD aint gonna strike you down for reading it on your own .
READ IT . READ those lovely pages , EMBRACE and BELIEVE as do a child what is written . AND YOU SEE
whether or not i really am the deciever , OR WAS I SIMPLY DOING ALL OUT OF LOVE for this people .
Go on mr bread . OPEN .......................and read . And enjoy it . yOU wont be cursed
you wont be thrown to hell if ya read for yourself . READ IT .
LOVE IT . EMbRACE IT . AND YOU SEE for yourself what by grace i seen .
THAT CHRISTENDOM IS IN DIRE TROUbLE . THIS PEOPLE has no idea what it has lost nor that they are lost .
READ . READ the l ovely pages for yourself .

@amigo de christo

 

[Marvelloustime]

if you could even fashion a response that is not already AN INDOCTRINATED one
i think i would faint . You been programmed my friend . But so have many others as well .
And not JUST the CATHOLIC but THE PROTESTANT as well .
Your thoughts come from your own organized structure of your own SYSTEM .
As do much of the protestant realm .
And while Not every thing they taught you or the protesant realm taught their own IS A LIE .
Some of it is and in many cases MUCH OF IT IS .
BIBLE TIME . you always cliam the RCC inspired it . THOUGH IT DID NOT .
but okay . SO GET IN IT FOR YOU . even the protestant realm does the same
AS it joel osteens and scores of others HOLD that bibLE high and say
THIS is the bible , ican do what it says , ONLY HE DONT and THEY DONT .
OPEN IT FOR YOU . And as a child learn afresh and anew FOR YOU . or wail on JESUS day is all i can say .

@amigo de christo

 

[Marvelloustime]

if you could even fashion a response that is not already AN INDOCTRINATED one
i think i would faint . You been programmed my friend . But so have many others as well .
And not JUST the CATHOLIC but THE PROTESTANT as well .
Your thoughts come from your own organized structure of your own SYSTEM .
As do much of the protestant realm .
And while Not every thing they taught you or the protesant realm taught their own IS A LIE .
Some of it is and in many cases MUCH OF IT IS .
BIBLE TIME . you always cliam the RCC inspired it . THOUGH IT DID NOT .
but okay . SO GET IN IT FOR YOU . even the protestant realm does the same
AS it joel osteens and scores of others HOLD that bibLE high and say
THIS is the bible , ican do what it says , ONLY HE DONT and THEY DONT .
OPEN IT FOR YOU . And as a child learn afresh and anew FOR YOU . or wail on JESUS day is all i can say .

@amigo de christo

 

[BreadOfLife]

Ad hominem.

No - just an observation.
I'm trying to figure out WHY an adult person can’t understand how to read a forum post correctly . . .

No,
You presented it as your evidence for your belief that Mary never had children.
Come out in the open and state your true belief.
Did Joseph have children with another wife?
Did Joseph have two wives?

AGAIN, I didn’t reference the Protoevangelium of James as MY belief of Mary’s Perpetual Virginity.
I have presented AMPLE Scripture verses to support that.
I brought up the Protoevangelium as HISTORICAL evidence.

YOUR argument against this doctrine is based solely on your OWN opinion and complete failure to understand Koine Greek (Adelphos, Adelphe, Adelphoi)– It is certainly NOT based in Scripture.

Based on the verses I presented – AND the unanimous teachings of the Early Church as well as your Protestant Fathers, I believe the Church has an AIR-TIGHT case . . .


Here is a Biblie Lesson for you . . .

Of the 344 times we see the use of the word “Adelphos”, “Adelphe” and all of their variations, we see that –
41 cases (12%) where "adelphos" clearly or probably refers to a family sibling:
47 cases (14%) where "adelphos" may or may not refer to a family sibling:

There are a whopping 256 cases (74%) where "adelphos" cannot or almost certainly does not refer to a family sibling:
Of the 344 times we see the use of the word “Adelphos” and all its variations –
Only 41 cases (12%) where "adelphos" clearly or probably refers to a family sibling.
47 cases (14%) where "adelphos" may or may not refer to a family sibling.

FINALLY – there are a whopping 256 cases (74%) where "adelphos" cannot or almost certainly does not refer to a family sibling.

There ends the Lesson . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Proud of Amigo de Christo for realizing the catholic church is counterfeit.

You’re “proud” of his ignorant positions on authentic Catholic teaching??

You guys are 2 ignorant and dishonest peas in a pod.
STOP following MEN and START following Christ . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Mary's sister had children and therefore the brothers and sisters of Jesus are Mary's sisters children.
This interpretation is NOT based on scriptural evidence only assumption.

The argumentation used in this doctrinal belief is as follows:

1. John 19:25 says Jesus' mothers sister was Mary the wife of Cleophas.

2. Matthew 27:56/ Mark 15:40 mention  a Mary who was the mother of James and Joses.

3. Therefore some conclude that Mary the wife of Cleophas = Mary the mother of James and Joses, making James and Joses sons of Mary's sister.

The problem with this conclusion is the Bible never explicitly makes this distinction.
The Bible does not state Mary the wife of Cleophas was the mother of James and Joses, nor does the Bible state that Mary's sister had sons.

And this still does not establish that Jesus' brothers in Matthew 13:55 were cousins.
Matthew simply calls them adelphoì brothers.

WRON on ALL counts.

It's painfully obvious that you know NOTHING about Biblical interpretation. EVERYTHING has to be taken into consideration. Simply translating words into English - WITHOUT understanding the function of languages and culture in the 1st century is a FAILURE to properly interpret the Scriptures.
In other words, learning how to say, “Taco” doesn’t make you an “expert” on WHY a taco is called a taco . . .

The Early Church Fathers were much, MUCH closer to the 1st century – and STILL used Koine Greek.
THEIR views on Biblical, linguistic and cultural interpretation are FAR more valuablethan your Protestant founders and their successors.

That being said - let's examine what the Word of God has to say about the Parents of the "Adelphoi" of Jesus . . .

James, son of Alphaeus (Clopas) :
Matt. 10:3, Mark 3:18, Luke 6:15
These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus (Clopas), and Thaddaeus;

James and Joses/Joseph, son of Mary and Alphaeus/Clopas:
We ALREADY know that Alphaeus and Clopas are the SAME person, whose wife is MARY, the Adelphe of Mary, Mother of Jesus. The Aramaic name for “Alphaeus” is rendered in Greek either as Alphaeus or as “Clopas”. She was described as the mother of James and Joseph (Mt 27:56) in one account, and mother of James the Less and Joses in another (Mk 15:40).

You LOSE based on Biblical evidence ALONE . . .

 

[Titus]

AGAIN, I didn’t reference the Protoevangelium of James as MY belief of Mary’s Perpetual Virginity.

Bread of Life used the Protoevangelium of James to prove what?
He has admitted it's not his belief that Joseph had children with another wife as the Protoevangelium makes this claim.
So why even bring up the Protevangelium of James document if you dont believe its factual historical evidence?

I brought up the Protoevangelium as HISTORICAL evidence.

Bread of Life uses "historical evidence " as his evidence.
This "evidence" he himself admits is not his position.
Yet he uses it anyway to prove Mary never had children.

Folks, I've asked Bread of Life multiple times to tell me if he believes Joseph had another wife before Mary the mother of Jesus, just as the Protoevangelium of James claims.
He has refused to give a straight answer.

Using something written in the past to try and prove your position is scriptural while denying you agree with the written document your using is inconsistent!!!

So heres my question to Bread of Life:
If you dont accept the Protoevangelium's account of Joseph having a wife with children before marrying Mary,
On what basis are you treating its claim about Mary's perpetual virginity as reliable historical evidence?


For everyone else who is interested in this discussion/debate.
It's good to know that scholars who recognize the Protoevangelium of James do not treat its narrative as straightforward historical reporting.
One Cambridge source describes its author as using old and new testament stories to construct a narrative about Mary and specifically characterizes the work as containing fictitious/legendary elements.

Bread of Life chose to use this document as his evidence for Mary being childless.
Why would someone use something they dont have faith in as their evidence?

Very inconsistent argument.
Very unconvincing argument.

 

[Titus]

Your idiotic and arrogant condemnations aside

You’re NOT very bright, are you?

I NEVER stated that the Protoevangelium was FACT

I brought up the Protoevangelium as HISTORICAL evidence.

You guys are 2 ignorant and dishonest peas in a pod.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Bread of Life used the Protoevangelium of James to prove what?
He has admitted it's not his belief that Joseph had children with another wife as the Protoevangelium makes this claim.
So why even bring up the Protevangelium of James document if you dont believe its factual historical evidence?

WOW.

How many times do I have to explain to you that I was merely showing you HISTORICAAL evidence that the Early Church believed in Mary’s Perpetual Virginity. I’ve explained this now to you at least THREE TIMES.

THIS is one of the reasons I asked you the following question:
“You’re NOT very bright, are you?”

Bread of Life uses "historical evidence " as his evidence.
This "evidence" he himself admits is not his position.
Yet he uses it anyway to prove Mary never had children.

Folks, I've asked Bread of Life multiple times to tell me if he believes Joseph had another wife before Mary the mother of Jesus, just as the Protoevangelium of James claims.
He has refused to give a straight answer.

Using something written in the past to try and prove your position is scriptural while denying you agree with the written document your using is inconsistent!!!

So heres my question to Bread of Life:
If you dont accept the Protoevangelium's account of Joseph having a wife with children before marrying Mary,
On what basis are you treating its claim about Mary's perpetual virginity as reliable historical evidence?


For everyone else who is interested in this discussion/debate.
It's good to know that scholars who recognize the Protoevangelium of James do not treat its narrative as straightforward historical reporting.
One Cambridge source describes its author as using old and new testament stories to construct a narrative about Mary and specifically characterizes the work as containing fictitious/legendary elements.

Bread of Life chose to use this document as his evidence for Mary being childless.
Why would someone use something they dont have faith in as their evidence?

WOW, again . . .

Really – I MUST ask you – is there something wrong with you? You don’t seem to be able to grasp simple English. Is it a language barrier? I answered this question in my LAST 3 posts.

I have given you MULTIPLE verses of Scripture that have DESTROYED your pathetic arguments and Scriptural and linguistic perversions.
That SHOULD suffice – unless you’re just a glutton for punishment . . .

Very inconsistent argument.
Very unconvincing argument.

I can’t make you see the light. I can only POINT you in its direction.
Only the Holy Spirit can remove the scales from your eyes . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Your idiotic and arrogant condemnations aside

You’re NOT very bright, are you?

I NEVER stated that the Protoevangelium was FACT

I brought up the Protoevangelium as HISTORICAL evidence.

You guys are 2 ignorant and dishonest peas in a pod.

All MY statements - and good ons at that..
And your point is?

 

[William Barton]

Mark 3:31-35:
αδελφοι = siblings, indicating Mary had other children after her first child Jesus.

 

[Titus]

WOW.

How many times do I have to explain to you that I was merely showing you HISTORICAAL evidence that the Early Church believed in Mary’s Perpetual Virginity. I’ve explained this now to you at least THREE TIMES.

THIS is one of the reasons I asked you the following question:
“You’re NOT very bright, are you?”

WOW, again . . .

Really – I MUST ask you – is there something wrong with you? You don’t seem to be able to grasp simple English. Is it a language barrier? I answered this question in my LAST 3 posts.

I have given you MULTIPLE verses of Scripture that have DESTROYED your pathetic arguments and Scriptural and linguistic perversions.
That SHOULD suffice – unless you’re just a glutton for punishment . . .

I can’t make you see the light. I can only POINT you in its direction.
Only the Holy Spirit can remove the scales from your eyes . . .

Dodge
Still refusing to give a clear answer to my question.
Do you agree with the historical document(The Protoevangelium of James) that you used for your evidence, that states Joseph had children with a previous wife before he married Mary mother of Jesus?

I answered this question in my LAST 3 posts.

No you have never directly answered my question.
You claim you've answered my question 3 ×.
Re-post your answer.

 

[Titus]

Mark 3:31-35:
αδελφοι = siblings, indicating Mary had other children after her first child Jesus.

Well done. It's really that simple.

New testament Greek scholars translated all of the English new testaments.
Why is it not one new testament translated into english uses cousins for the passages that mention Jesus' brothers and sisters?

 

[PeterAndroz]

Well done. It's really that simple.

New testament Greek scholars translated all of the English new testaments.
Why is it not one new testament translated into english uses cousins for the passages that mention Jesus' brothers and sisters?

Good to see you pushing back against that Catholic perpetual virgin delusion that they use to try and prove that ONLY Catholics can be saved.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Mark 3:31-35:
αδελφοι = siblings, indicating Mary had other children after her first child Jesus.

Well done. It's really that simple.

New testament Greek scholars translated all of the English new testaments.
Why is it not one new testament translated into english uses cousins for the passages that mention Jesus' brothers and sisters?

Strong's Greek Concordance
αδελπηοσ
Pronunciation: ad-el-fos'
Definition:
1) a brother, whether born of the same two parents or only of the same father or mother
6a) his brothers by blood

NOW, you have to wrestle with the other EIGHT definitions in Greek . . .
2) having the same national ancestor, belonging to the same people, or countryman
3) any fellow or man
4) a fellow believer, united to another by the bond of affection
5) an associate in employment or office
6) brethren in Christ
6b) all men
6c) apostles
6d) Christians, as those who are exalted to the same heavenly place

I realize that you guys are desperate to prove this wrong because then you’d HAVE to admit that Jesus didn’t have any uterine siblings.
Imagine that – you would actually have to AGREE with your Protestant Fathers, whjo almost UNANYMOUSELY believed in Mary’s Perpetual Virginity . . .

I posted the following on an earlier post. Apparently, NEITHER of you read it – so here it is again for your edification . . .

Of the 344 times we see the use of the word “Adelphos”, “Adelphe” and ALL of their variations, we see that –
- 41 cases (12%) where "adelphos" clearly or probably refers to a family sibling:
- 47 cases (14%) where "adelphos" may or may not refer to a family sibling:
- A whopping 256 cases (74%) where "adelphos" CANNOT and almost certainly DOES NOT refer to a family sibling.

Similarly, the Hebrew word, “Ach” also carries these definitions. We know this from the Septuagint, which is the OT translated into GREEK. Adelphos/Adelphe/Adelphoi is used in place of the word Ach. For example:

In Gen. 14:14, Lot is called Abraham’s "brother", even though he was Abraham’s NEPHEW, the son of Haran, Abraham’s brother (Gen. 11:26–28).

In Gen. 29:15, Jacob is referred to as the "brother" of his UNCLE Laban.

Brothers Kish and Eleazar were the sons of Mahli. Kish had sons of his own, but Eleazar’s daughters married their "brethren”, the sons of Kish - who were actually their COUSINS (1 Chr. 23:21–22).

Really, guys – do your HOMEWORK before embarrassing yourselves any further. . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Dodge
Still refusing to give a clear answer to my question.
Do you agree with the historical document(The Protoevangelium of James) that you used for your evidence, that states Joseph had children with a previous wife before he married Mary mother of Jesus?

No you have never directly answered my question.
You claim you've answered my question 3 ×.
Re-post your answer.

Man, there’s a LOT of dishonesty on this forum – but NOT usually this blatant . . .

As I and others have repeatedly stated on this thread:

False Teaching: Mary died a virgin. Biblical Proof Mary had children.

John 19:25 is silent about Mary's sister having children. That is the assumption from your doctrinal tradition. I think we all know what KNEW means :) Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and...

www.christianityboard.com

Now - go back and SHOW me the post where I said thatI believed that Joseph was previously married and HIS chilfren were the "brethren" of Jesus.
If you can't - then ALL of the manure you've been vomiting out is just a dodge because you know your position has been soundly defeated . . .