Fed up with American Christian churches

[Brakelite]

only if they're morally and spiritually weak

...I will visit the iniquity of the fathers onto the children to the 3rd and 4th generation... It is well accepted that alcoholism is a physical disease and addiction and can be inherited, sometimes even skipping a generation. I don't think that is indicative of weakness, just a hereditary disease. It must be added however that a solid Christian lifestyle stops that cycle. Doesn't take away the risk though even for Christians of they choose to drink and have a history of alcoholism in the family. It does give them an advantage if they choose to not drink at all.

 

[GEN2REV]

But there are plenty of references to wine in the Bible, for example Jesus turned water into wine so why would he do that if it was evil stuff?
And what's the stuff catholics sip as the metaphoric "blood of Jesus"?
I agree that booze can have a bad effect on some people but only if they're morally and spiritually weak in the first place, but Christians aren't..

Your posts are consistent and your opinion is shared by the majority.

You'll never have to worry about being alone.

 

[Dropship]

Regarding the effect of alcohol on people, A national Brit newspaper once invited readers who'd had very short marriages to write in.
One chap wrote "I married a nice woman after a whirlwind romance, and as we sat on the verandah of our honeymoon hotel sipping our drinks, she suddenly glared at me and blurted out "Why do you hate my mother?"
I told her I'd never even met her mother and didn't know anything about her, but she kept saying "You've always hated her".
So I later quietly packed my bags and made my way to the airport and flew home to begin divorce proceedings"..

 

[GEN2REV]

Regarding the effect of alcohol on people, A national Brit newspaper once invited readers who'd had very short marriages to write in.
One chap wrote "I married a nice woman after a whirlwind romance, and as we sat on the verandah of our honeymoon hotel sipping our drinks, she suddenly glared at me and blurted out "Why do you hate my mother?"
I told her I'd never even met her mother and didn't know anything about her, but she kept saying "You've always hated her".
So I later quietly packed my bags and made my way to the airport and flew home to begin divorce proceedings"..

They might still be married if they'd chosen to refrain from the use of alcohol.

Alcohol separates us from divine protection, opens spiritual doorways to demons and gives them legal right to toy with us in many ways.

Some are more susceptible to the influences, but nobody is immune.

 

[Dropship]

..Alcohol separates us from divine protection, opens spiritual doorways to demons and gives them legal right to toy with us in many ways.
Some are more susceptible to the influences, but nobody is immune.

Yes, my late dad was a workaholic and used to down bottles of wine at home in the evenings to relieve his work stresses.
At first he'd be sweaty-faced and jolly with a big smile, but as time went on, his expression would turn to one of sheer hatred as his demons took him over and he'd glare at my mother and me, calling us names and talking rubbish. Besides addling his brain, the stuff also rotted his innards and he died of liver cancer in 1982 aged 62.
His brother too was over-fond of the booze and his body and brain packed up when he was 54 and he ended up demented and died in hospital not knowing what planet he was on.
Then there was my hard-drinking hard-smoking Hell's Angel brother-in-law, he once said to me "Huh, you're not a man if you don't drink and smoke".
He died of cancer in his mid-60's but I'm still around..

 

[Jim B]

Yes, my late dad was a workaholic and used to down bottles of wine at home in the evenings to relieve his work stresses.
At first he'd be sweaty-faced and jolly with a big smile, but as time went on, his expression would turn to one of sheer hatred as his demons took him over and he'd glare at my mother and me, calling us names and talking rubbish. Besides addling his brain, the stuff also rotted his innards and he died of liver cancer in 1982 aged 62.
His brother too was over-fond of the booze and his body and brain packed up when he was 54 and he ended up demented and died in hospital not knowing what planet he was on.
Then there was my hard-drinking hard-smoking Hell's Angel brother-in-law, he once said to me "Huh, you're not a man if you don't drink and smoke".
He died of cancer in his mid-60's but I'm still around..

These are very sad stories! Thank God that He has given you a different path!

 

[Alfredthefifth]

Not enough sleep.



1. If you think about what a basic sunday service comprises of we have -
2. the welcome from the Pastor or a leader,
3. the church notices,
4. the taking up of the offering,
5. the communion,
6. the Music team begins with some Praise and worship,
7. the Pastor preaches either on a specific study they are doing or on something he has been inspired by during the week.Some times they may have a guest speaker.

8. After that we may have more worship and then some closing words or prayers.

9. Sometimes there may be an item from the childrens church or youth group and/or testimonies during the service. After the preaching, there may also be an altar call for healing or other. Depending on the denomination.

Perhaps there may be a shared lunch of coffee afterwards, depending on the type of denomination.

This does not leave much room for real fellowship with the Pastor or others in the congregation. Most take off because they have things to do at home or with family etc. Or perhaps they are tired from getting their family up and organised in time for the service. Others are busy cleaning up or pulling down packing up instruments and chairs etc[if appropriate]

It appears to me that anyone who would like to get to know members on this superficial level would have to go there every Sunday for months and still not know anyone. However, a home group would give any individual the opportunity to ask some questions which they would not have the chance to do in a church environment. They would be able to get to know other members, they would be able to open up about their personal struggles and pray together as a smaller group. They would be able to study the word together and the maturer believers would be able to share how they dealt with specific situations. They would be able to ask questions without feeling stupid. They would be able to support each other and their physical needs if necessary. Some folk don't like their personal life splattered all over the church.

This environment gives a new member or any member as a matter of fact, the opportuntiy to feel like they are a part of a nucleus family......My HG leader use to say that anything that is discussesd in this HG is not to be discussed outside of it. That gives members the ability to share their struggles and needs with others with confidence. Hebrews 10:25

I like this description

But item #7
Whether it is seasons of the church year, or for the sake of continuity acrossed the country. Orginized Church congresses, synods, associations have regularly printed topic guides. These topic guides have specific bible readings for the Sundays of the church calendar. So specific that a lazy pastor can use the supplied sermons without ever having written his own. Many will ask how I know this?
It is because that a junior pastor that was always on the outs with the senior pastor shared this with me. Mine out of ten of that senior pastors sermons were word for word would came down from synod preprepared.
That senior pastor's attitude was so much about appearances, that the church took on an appearance first attitude.

Few people in the churches I attend now would be welcomed in that church. And few of the lifelong (some many generations) members that felt driven out have even looked for another church.

A sister church to my example, a third generation member described the experience as "being at the church not of the church." This was the church she was raised in, that her grandfather helped build!

Parts of two bible verses
What you have done to the least of these, you have done to me

Take care for many have entertained angels unaware

How many church's think of these two things in the same context?

When you find one you may have found a gem.
A pearl of great price. Rare? I spend time in three such churches, three out of the ten I have enough experience in to talk about.

The churches I have found and willingly attend those angels will have a good report.
The church I left and churches of appearances? I don't even want to think what those angels find!

I dare write these things because Jesus said, "by their fruits you will know them!"

Think about this,
Man looks at outwards Appearances while GOD LOOKS AT THE HEART
And
By their fruits you will know them

Al

 

[marksman]

I hear you. For what it's worth, my grandson has Asperger's and I've seen how difficult it is for him to relate to others. And for others to relate to him, including us his grandparents. That's a very human thing, and I don't know how to fix it.

Were you able to talk to the church leadership and let them know what your needs are? Most of us neurotypicals simply don't know and don't understand.

You can't fix it. it is a disability that has no cure. The experts say that autistic people cannot change so you have to change. The autistic person is very blunt and calls a spade a spade. They are not rude and they are not accusatory. Get your head around those facts and you will begin to understand them.

It is your job to understand them not for them to understand you. They are the most reliable people on earth. if you want a job done well, ask an autistic person.

 

[marksman]

There is a lot of truth to this. The trend towards making worship services into entertainment sessions began some time back. Bands, rock music, "worship teams", paid singers, extremely loud music, banishment of hymn books, and sermons with little or no Gospel and Bible content crept into many churches claiming to be "seeker friendly". Then the Charismatic phenomenon added to the confusion. Finally false doctrines and practices also crept it.

However, you should keep looking for a fellowship which is based on following the New Testament pattern.

You are going to be looking for a long time.

 

[marksman]

I have done a dissertation for a Ph.D. on the New Testament Church. I went well beyond scripture and delved into the story behind the story of the church. In all, I read over 60 books on the topic. Talk about having my eyes open. If I was to take the New Testament Church as my yardstick, today's church(sic) would be a complete joke. Put it this way. If those who comprised the New Testament Church were around today I am sure their first question would be "Where is the church?"

To be quite frank, comparing today's church with that of the New Testament Church is like comparing a bicycle with a Ferrari. What does that mean There is NO comparison. They are alike as chalk and cheese and I know what one I would rather eat.

There are two things as far as I can see that prevent today's church from being of the New Testament variety. One is denominations and the other is paid leadership, neither of which were present in the New Testament Church. Until we get rid of both the church today will remain a business.

 

[Alfredthefifth]

There is a lot of truth to this. The trend towards making worship services into entertainment sessions began some time back. Bands, rock music, "worship teams", paid singers, extremely loud music, banishment of hymn books, and sermons with little or no Gospel and Bible content crept into many churches claiming to be "seeker friendly". Then the Charismatic phenomenon added to the confusion. Finally false doctrines and practices also crept it.

However, you should keep looking for a fellowship which is based on following the New Testament pattern.

My mom said first in my hearing.
The church she is going to has a modern service. The same old hymn put to up beat guitar music.
She says, play new songs to the new music
I learned a 300 hundred year old hymn 80 years ago and now I don't even know it anymore.

I find I agree with her.

There is enough new music to use, some guite good.

My preferred church is an hours drive away. The praise band is new songs bible based new songs then the standard bible and hymnal service.

The 30 minute church is pretty old fashioned. Except the hymns are projected on white walls so the hymnals are seldom used

My 10 minute church, because some mornings are just to slow getting started is all praise band, beautiful songs for us old folks.

But an entertaining service would have to be strongly bible based Gospel. Because church is for the word of God!

Gospel karaoke, anyone?


Alfredthefifth

 

[Enoch111]

But an entertaining service would have to be strongly bible based Gospel.

You can either have entertainment or worship. Not both.

 

[Enoch111]

You are going to be looking for a long time.

Unless you are prepared to pitch in and get going with a few other likeminded Christians. That could happen within days.

 

[marksman]

Unless you are prepared to pitch in and get going with a few other likeminded Christians. That could happen within days.

As yet no likeminded people where I live. Everyone seems enamored with the status quo.

 

[Alfredthefifth]

You can either have entertainment or worship. Not both.

So you are saying that GOD'S WORD can not be in an entertaining environment!

I made that a statement on purpose.

But it is also a question


Alfredthefifth

 

[Enoch111]

But it is also a question

Entertainment caters to "the flesh". Worship nourishes the spirit. So make up your mind.

Do you know what is said about the Israelites who idolatrously worshipped the Golden Calf while Moses was on Mount Sinai? And they [the Israelites] rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play. (Exodus 32:6) That was entertainment. And now many churches are having entertainment during worship services.

 

[Alfredthefifth]

@Enoch111

I to fall back to the sower of the seed.

We need to spread the seed of the spirit. Entertainment may Entertain the flesh.
However there are entertaining worldly songs that have the smallest bit of the seed that have brought unbelievers to belief.

That one line in the song showed me what I have been looking for and changed my life!

And I am talking almost every word in every line in every song being in the word and spirit. Entertaining yes but how many seeds are being thrown even if they don't fall one fertil ground?

Jesus never said, Save my seeds for fertil ground only!

I would not discount any form that the spirit can work in.
Although I have been in churches that maintain that musical instruments are sinful. They detract from the message.

In this world where I see only outwards Appearances, how can I say that anyone is saved, that anyone doesn't need that one word, and how can I say this will or will not deliver that one word.

If this song is biblically sound who will dare to block the Holy Spirit this or any other means of delivering the seed?

I have mine and that is not how I came to mine therefore it won't work. Can anyone see how empty this sentence is?

I will probably never be found in a maga church.
I have been in a stadium of 10,000+ that in between the entertainment was for a few minutes a great shining church. That brought on the show that we were there for but for some how many I will never know how many the Holy Spirit was very strong in that place.

I see how you allude to the worshipping of the golden calf. Were in worshipping God Himself am I going to find a golden calf?

I can only speak for myself in that how, why or where the spirit will work is beyond my and
all human comprehension, SO I DO NOT DARE SAY WHAT WILL BLOCK THE HOLY SPIRIT! Because the Holy Spirit is unblockable once the seed is planted!
And not one human knows how to plant this seed, only that we must cast the seed freely and often!

Alfredthefifth

 

[Philologos]

The chaste woman in Revelation 12 in time morphs into the whore of Revelation 17
In Revelation 12 the chaste woman fled into the wilderness. In Revelation 17 John was taken into the wilderness to see an unchaste woman on a beast. Vs 6 tells us when he saw her he marvelled with great amazement.

You speak of the new Church by which I'm assuming you mean the early Church having certain admirable qualities and you compare it to the current Church which makes your heart sink. No doubt it made John's heart sink also.

God nevertheless knows his people and calls for them to come out of Babylon....the apostate system. Revelation 18:4

I couldn't help but notice your reply immediately opened with Revelation 12. The OP was expressing concern about how churches seem to be hyper focused on some people while neglecting others. I'm stuck on how your reply is intended to help. Please forgive my not being able to catch on, I'm sure you have a perspective you're working from...

 

[Philologos]

@Enoch111

I to fall back to the sower of the seed.

We need to spread the seed of the spirit. Entertainment may Entertain the flesh.
However there are entertaining worldly songs that have the smallest bit of the seed that have brought unbelievers to belief.

That one line in the song showed me what I have been looking for and changed my life!

And I am talking almost every word in every line in every song being in the word and spirit. Entertaining yes but how many seeds are being thrown even if they don't fall one fertil ground?

Jesus never said, Save my seeds for fertil ground only!

I would not discount any form that the spirit can work in.
Although I have been in churches that maintain that musical instruments are sinful. They detract from the message.

In this world where I see only outwards Appearances, how can I say that anyone is saved, that anyone doesn't need that one word, and how can I say this will or will not deliver that one word.

If this song is biblically sound who will dare to block the Holy Spirit this or any other means of delivering the seed?

I have mine and that is not how I came to mine therefore it won't work. Can anyone see how empty this sentence is?

I will probably never be found in a maga church.
I have been in a stadium of 10,000+ that in between the entertainment was for a few minutes a great shining church. That brought on the show that we were there for but for some how many I will never know how many the Holy Spirit was very strong in that place.

I see how you allude to the worshipping of the golden calf. Were in worshipping God Himself am I going to find a golden calf?

I can only speak for myself in that how, why or where the spirit will work is beyond my and
all human comprehension, SO I DO NOT DARE SAY WHAT WILL BLOCK THE HOLY SPIRIT! Because the Holy Spirit is unblockable once the seed is planted!
And not one human knows how to plant this seed, only that we must cast the seed freely and often!

Alfredthefifth

A fan of Rich Mullins once commented that he really felt the spirit move (during the concert), to which Rich replied, "How could you, with all that noise in there?" Referring to his own music.
I revisited a church I'd once attended for a few years, but to my shock, the choir and orchestra were replaced by a rock band with a tongue-wagging lead guitarist, concert lights and fog !machine that covered the stage and most of the church in a thick blanket of fog. After the concert, the sermon was kind of a bummer, lol.

 

[quietthinker]

I couldn't help but notice your reply immediately opened with Revelation 12. The OP was expressing concern about how churches seem to be hyper focused on some people while neglecting others. I'm stuck on how your reply is intended to help. Please forgive my not being able to catch on, I'm sure you have a perspective you're working from...

...the 'fed up' factor expressed in the original post, I believe, is that of many believers when they see the wayward institutionalisation of the modern church. It has morphed from a chaste virgin to an unashamed whore akin to my post #2.

American Protestantism is the primary player in these times spearheading a return to the abominations of the RCC......who trades for corruptible wealth and popularity.