Female Pastors

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101G

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2 Wormwood,
Every author I read says what I am saying. This text is about how people "become children of God" and equal eligibility for salvation. This text has nothing to do with feminism or egalitarianism. Paul was thinking nothing of the sort in this context.

Every author I read says what I am saying. really?, I disagree, Galatians 3:28 just one sample, Gill's commentary: there is neither male nor female; among the Heathens {s} also females were not admitted to some of their sacred rites and ceremonies; and among the Jews the males only were concerned in many things both of a civil and religious nature; no female might be heir to an inheritance with a male {t}; females had no share in the civil government, nor in the priesthood; males were to appear three times a year before the Lord, and, according to their oral law, women and servants were exempted {u}; the mark of circumcision, the sign of the covenant made with Abraham and his natural seed, was only upon the males; but now under the Gospel dispensation there is no distinction made between male and female as to divine things; as they are alike called by the grace of God, they have the same right to Gospel ordinances, baptism and the Lord's supper, and to every spiritual privilege. The apostle's design is to show the common right of believers, of every nation, condition, and sex, and to encourage the Gentiles, and demolish the pride, vanity, and boasting of the Jews, their men especially, who valued themselves upon these "three" very things which the apostle here makes no account of; as that they were Israelites and not Gentiles, freemen and not servants, men and not women; and in their public prayers they give thanks to God in this form".

the book of Galatians is simply telling them that have "FREEDOM", in Christ Jesus. especially here in 3:28 of women. which is our theme. question do you disagree with the assessment of the verse above Y/N?.

I'll be waiting for your answer. a yes or no will do. please re-read the commentary for clarity.


Now that we have another Hermeneutics expert,
we can look at Galatians 3:28 again. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus". we have read the commentaries on this scripture, let zoom in on the last part of the scripture, " for ye are all one in Christ Jesus". ONE IN CHRIST?. if we're ONE in Christ, and having the same privileges how can one say, "because you're a female you can't preach teach or pastor". who have made you God?. that sound stupid, and anti Christ. did not the apostle Paul spoke of himself and Apollos as ONE IN CHRIST, and both was ministers in the gospel. 1 Corinthians 3:5 "Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. 8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour". so what's the beef?, just because a woman is of a difference GENDER, (just as the gentiles was of another race), but we have proved that both male and female are nothing in Christ Jesus. so why do you sin. for our brother James said, 2:9 "But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors".
 

Wormwood

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Okay 101G, If you want to use Gill's commentary as your authority...lets do that. First of all, he is referring to the spiritual privledges that are equal for men and women such as baptism, the Lord's supper and so forth. Clearly he is NOT speaking about role distinctions in church leadership. His commentary on 1 Tim 2 says,
But I suffer not a woman to teach,
&c,] They may teach in private, in their own houses and families; they are to be teachers of good things, ( Titus 2:3 ) . They are to bring up their children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord; nor is the law or doctrine of a mother to be forsaken, any more than the instruction of a father; see ( Proverbs 1:8 ) ( 31:1-4 ) . Timothy, no doubt, received much advantage, from the private teachings and instructions of his mother Eunice, and grandmother Lois; but then women are not to teach in the church; for that is an act of power and authority, and supposes the persons that teach to be of a superior degree, and in a superior office, and to have superior abilities to those who are taught by them:
nor to usurp authority over the man;
as not in civil and political things, or in things relating to civil government; and in things domestic, or the affairs of the family; so not in things ecclesiastical, or what relate to the church and government of it; for one part of rule is to feed the church with knowledge and understanding; and for a woman to take upon her to do this, is to usurp an authority over the man: this therefore she ought not to do,
but to be in silence;
to sit and hear quietly and silently, and learn, and not teach, as in ( 1 Timothy 2:11 ) .
So here are the comments about women in leadership from your theological authority who clearly agrees with me and disagrees with you. So "No" I do not agree with your assessment...and neither does the author of your commentary. The problem is, this text in Galatians is not talking about women in leadership. Freedom from sin and being equal heirs of salvation in a culture that devalued women is far different from saying there are no role distinctions in church leadership. Period.

So I think you need to search around for yet another hermeneutics expert. Your expert does not seem to agree with you interpretation.
 

HammerStone

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I've always been at odds with many on this topic because I do see a role for women leadership in the church and as pastors.

However, I cannot and will not use Galatians 3:28 to defend women in this role. It's not talking about church leadership, but it's talking about salvation and serving as a direct rebuttal to the historic status of women being completely marginalized in society. There are better arguments to be made, just as context need be applied to what Paul said to Timothy.
 
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JPPT1974

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It is also about treating women in equals in church leadership roles. As despite the men being in leadership. Being a Baptist myself, women in the church as pastors are not allowed. But other denominations allow that. But what it comes down to is that you treat women being a woman myself, it is treating them as Godly equals.
 

101G

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2 Wormwood,
Okay 101G, If you want to use Gill's commentary as your authority...lets do that. First of all, he is referring to the spiritual privileges that are equal for men and women".

so according to you, spiritual leadership, it is not on the spiritual agenda of privileges. see how you ERROR, you forget a bible principle. just as with the LAW you break one you break them all.
I can't see how you be so narrow minded. you can some privileges, but not all of them. do you see how ignorant that sound.

Look Wormwood, if you can't accept women as church ministers in the body of Christ, that's ok. just stay in darkness. for the light shine for men to see. and if you still have your blinders on it want help you to understand truth.

Now as you said before stick to the scriptures. and in doing so. start with the scriptures given in this topic body.


2 HammerStone, GINOLJC.
I went to Galatians because the scripture was brought up. and thanks for seeing the Light on women in ministry. but even in Galatians the privileges, or freedoms granted transcend GENDER, RACE, and or Heritage, IN SPIRITUAL MATTERS. men and women have the SAME Spiritual gifts. Joel 2:28 & 27 prove that out.

There are better arguments to be made, just as context need be applied to what Paul said to Timothy.
Please post them. thanks in advance.



be blessed.

2 JPPT1974, greeting in the name of the Lord Jesus.

It is also about treating women in equals in church leadership roles. As despite the men being in leadership. Being a Baptist myself, women in the church as pastors are not allowed. But other denominations allow that. But what it comes down to is that you treat women being a woman myself, it is treating them as Godly equals.


How so true. and welcome to the topic.
 

Wormwood

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HammerStone said:
I've always been at odds with many on this topic because I do see a role for women leadership in the church and as pastors.

However, I cannot and will not use Galatians 3:28 to defend women in this role. It's not talking about church leadership, but it's talking about salvation and serving as a direct rebuttal to the historic status of women being completely marginalized in society. There are better arguments to be made, just as context need be applied to what Paul said to Timothy.
Agreed. (Not on the role of women leadership as pastors part through :D )

I can't see how you be so narrow minded. you can some privileges, but not all of them. do you see how ignorant that sound.
This is not about narrow mindedness or ignorance. This is about Biblical hermeneutics. If you want to have a biblical discussion, lets stick to discussing the text and not result to name calling.


Look Wormwood, if you can't accept women as church ministers in the body of Christ, that's ok. just stay in darkness. for the light shine for men to see. and if you still have your blinders on it want help you to understand truth.
101G... This is not about me. It is about honestly looking at the teaching of Scripture. This is not a personal agenda of mine but an effort to be faithful to what God says. Your own hermeneutic expert you referenced agreed with me and now you are saying I am "in darkness." This looks to me like you have already made up your mind and you don't really care what the Bible says on the topic. When your own expects that you admire disagree with you, perhaps it is time to reconsider if you are interpreting God's Word properly. If you can show me that God's Word approves women pastors, I would be happy to embrace this teaching. Again, this is not about me but about embracing the inspired author's teaching on the topic.
 

101G

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2 wornwood,
reconcile this,
1 Timothy 3:8 "Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; 9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. 10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. 11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. 12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well".

Romans 16:1 " I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea".
that word "Servant" is the same Greek word "Deacon in 1 Timothy 3:12.
please reconcile how Phebe was a Deacon. because Deacon was the husband of ONE WIFE.

Servant, Deacon
G1249 διάκονος diakonos (dee-ak'-on-os) n.
1. an attendant, a servant
2. (genitive case) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties)
3. (specially) a male Christian serving in a specific function and post (i.e. tending the widows and the poor, teaching, pastoring, etc)
[probably from an obsolete diako "to run on errands"]
KJV: deacon, minister, servant
 

7angels

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101G

you do a great job explaining your position on the matter of female pastors. it is tough for a person to understand the mysteries of God without a word of rhema. logos is good but until logos becomes rhema then you will never truely understand what a passage means. many would probably disagree with me when i say this but it is the truth according to the Word.

i know where you are coming from and where you are going with your arguments so it is easy for me to follow you. but to those that have not recieved the revelation that you are trying to get across will only bring persecution.

Jesus is the key to the interpretation of the Bible. There are two questions to ask yourself. The first question to ask is: "What is the emphasis of the Scripture that I am studying, in terms of redemption?" You should always ask yourself that question if you want to follow true biblical hermeneutics. That will be the first question to ask yourself. What does this part of Scripture have to do with the redemptive theme of Scripture? The second question to ask is: "How does this part of Scripture relate to other parts of Scripture in terms of the theme of redemption?" That is the ultimate principle. Remember when you are reading the sixty-six books of the Bible, you are reading that which has been selected by the Holy Spirit to tell the story of redemption.

just as galations refers to Jesus our liberty because He set us free. It was for liberty and freedom that Christ did set us free. gal is not just about salvation but about setting us free.

so how does not allowing women into positions of authority promoting God's redemptive plan? from what i know of God i find that God is an equal opportunity employer and He does not discriminate against anyone. so should we not follow God's example? women originally were not cursed by God until after they disobeyed God. so God's original plan was not for women to become second to men. also with the death of Christ he lifted all curses past, present, and future. so why do we still bear the weight of curses that according to the Word we were set free from or is God unable to redeem us from a curse he himself brought against us because of our rebellion? yet the word says Jesus redeemed us by taking upon himself the curse for our wrong doings. this includes all our wrong doings past, present, and future.

i have to go so i will finish up later if necessary.

God bless
 

101G

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to 7angels,
in the name of the Lord Jesus thank you, well spoken. most Christian are still in bondage, no freedom, no salvation. no freedom, no liberty.
2 Corinthians 3:17 "Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty". no Lord Jesus, no freedom. this is the proof of ones salvation, still in the flesh, bound.

now wormwood, what about that reconciling.
 

Polt

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JPPT1974 said:
It is also about treating women in equals in church leadership roles. As despite the men being in leadership. Being a Baptist myself, women in the church as pastors are not allowed. But other denominations allow that. But what it comes down to is that you treat women being a woman myself, it is treating them as Godly equals.
Before recently, practically no church would let a woman be a pastor. But, after the feminist movement, a lot of people decided they were smarter than author of the Bible.
 

101G

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2 Polt,
as usual, Hog wash. with a capital "H" on Hog. God was before the feminist movement, so was Phebe, Deborah, Euodias, Syntyche, and many more. so that excuse want wash, and another crutch taken away.

now wormwood, what about that reconciling. I'll post it again for you.
1 Timothy 3:8 "Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; 9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. 10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. 11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. 12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well".

Romans 16:1 " I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea".
that word "Servant" is the same Greek word "Deacon in 1 Timothy 3:12.
please reconcile how Phebe was a Deacon. because Deacon was the husband of ONE WIFE.

Servant, Deacon
G1249 διάκονος diakonos (dee-ak'-on-os) n.
1. an attendant, a servant
2. (genitive case) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties)
3. (specially) a male Christian serving in a specific function and post (i.e. tending the widows and the poor, teaching, pastoring, etc)
[probably from an obsolete diako "to run on errands"]
KJV: deacon, minister, servant
 

Polt

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101G said:
please reconcile how Phebe was a Deacon. because Deacon was the husband of ONE WIFE.
The great irony of your attack upon scripture is that if Paul hadn't said a "Deacon is the husband of one wife", you wouldn't have anything to try to turn a mere servant into something more. All women are serving when they're helping. Any woman helping someone is a deacon even if she's a homicidal, balaam-worshiping homosexual, crack-smoking prostitute wearing white after labor day. Do you really think Paul is listing rules for such a person. Apparently, you do.

There's your comedy solution to the contradiction you pose. Or, there's the reasonable solution. Paul isn't talking about just any deacon (including those in the New Testament who aren't part of the church) when he's laying out qualifications for a deacon. He's talking about an office.

Phoebe was a small d deacon.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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Theological dictionary of the New Testament.



διάκονος

2. Alongside the deacons there were also deaconesses. Their history begins with R. 16:1 where Paul describes Phoebe as τὴν ἀδελφὴν ἡμῶν, οὖσαν διάκονον τῆς ἐκκλησίας τῆς ἐν Κεγχρεαῖς. It is, of course, an open question whether he is referring to a fixed office or simply to her services on behalf of the community. Similarly, there is no agreement whether 1 Tm. 3:11 refers to the wives of deacons or to deaconesses. It is indisputable, however, that an order of deaconesses did quickly arise in the Church (Cf. H. Kalsbach, Die kirchliche Einrichtung der Diakonissen, 1926). A particular part was played here by widows who, on the strength of their chaste conduct on the one side and their loving service on the other, already received official recognition in 1 Tm. 5:3 ff.

[SIZE=91%]The relationship between widows and virgins varied in different parts of the ancient world. Both groups had ecclesiastical functions with respect to women members of the Church. In the East the widows were primarily responsible, and though from the time of the [/SIZE][SIZE=91%]Syr.[/SIZE] [SIZE=91%]Didasc.[/SIZE][SIZE=91%] there was an independent office of deaconesses, this fell into decay in the early Middle [/SIZE][SIZE=91%]Ages.[/SIZE][SIZE=91%]. In the West an independent order of deaconesses never developed in the Roman Church.[/SIZE]
 

101G

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2 Polt, my Hermeneutics expert
LOL, LOL, LOL.
The great irony of your attack upon scripture is that if Paul hadn't said a "Deacon is the husband of one wife", you wouldn't have anything to try to turn a mere servant into something more. All women are serving when they're helping. Any woman helping someone is a deacon even if she's a homicidal, balaam-worshiping homosexual, crack-smoking prostitute wearing white after labor day. Do you really think Paul is listing rules for such a person. Apparently, you do.

There's your comedy solution to the contradiction you pose. Or, there's the reasonable solution. Paul isn't talking about just any deacon (including those in the New Testament who aren't part of the church) when he's laying out qualifications for a deacon. He's talking about an office.

Phoebe was a small d deacon.




Do you really think Paul is listing rules for such a person. answer so the apostle Paul was not talking about an office of a BISHOP either. so your mere servant nonsense is just that , "NONE SENSE". and talking about an office, 1 Timothy 3:1 "This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work". show the Greek word for office here. there is none. so according to you then , a Elder, a Bishop, a Pastor is just mere helpers. remember there is no office for Bishop. and a Bishop is an elder, and a Pastor.

and lastly, Phoebe was a small d deacon.

is a Lie with a big L, is any different from a lie with a little l. :D



2 ChristRoseFromTheDead,
as you have stated, about the deacon, is this the same word for our sister, or if not please give the Greek word for "Deaconess". thanks.

and two Romans 16:2 "That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succorer of many, and of myself also.
this word succourer can you find out the meaning here, and its derivative of G4291
G4368 προστάτις prostatis (pros-tat'-is) n.
1. a patroness, i.e. assistant
[feminine of a derivative of G4291]
KJV: succourer
Root(s): G4291



thanks in advance


to wormwood, and ChristRoseFromTheDead,
surely its not taking this long to find the answers.
where is the word for a deaconess?. if this is a function/office, well where is the word that describe the woman deacon as one say (deaconess). .
we do have a words for a female prophet.
prophetess
G4398 προφῆτις prophetis (prof-ay`-tis) n.
1. a female foreteller or an inspired woman
[feminine of G4396]
KJV: prophetess
Root(s): G4396

it says, [feminine of G4396] so what's G4396

G4396 προφήτης prophetes (prof-ay'-tace) n.
1. a foreteller ("prophet")
2. (by analogy) an inspired speaker
3. (by extension) a poet
[from a compound of ,G4253 and G5346]
KJV: prophet
Root(s): G4253, G5346

see, there is the two Greek word for a Male and female in the office of a Prophet.

but we do have the female Greek word for overseer, YES, G4368 προστάτις prostatis (pros-tat'-is) n.
1. a patroness, i.e. assistant
[feminine of a derivative of G4291]
KJV: succourer
Root(s): G4291

What's G4291,
G4291 προΐστημι proistemi (pro-is"'-tay-mee) v.
1. to stand before
2. (in rank) to preside
3. (by implication) to practise
[from G4253 and G2476]
KJV: maintain, be over, rule
Root(s): G4253, G2476

so we have two GREEK WORDS for those who "OVERSEE", and "RULE". the Male and the female.
now if our sister Phebe was the female equivalent of G4291 then she is a "OVERSEER". "BISHOP", and "ELDER". and get it "Pastor". case closed.
now if anyone have the Greek word for a deaconess, ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE, please post it.
 

Wormwood

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101G,

First, I'd appreciate it if you didn't question my salvation because I disagree with your biblical exegesis.

Second, I try to respond when I have time. I'm busy so if it takes me a while, please be patient.

Third, I never said I did not believe women can be deaconesses. I believe this is very possible. The roles of elders and deacons are different in many aspects. Also, you should not appeal to Greek. Clearly you do not know Greek. Feminine words in Greek does not necessitate they are referring to something of female gender. The gender of a word does not mandate the gender of its object. Also the gender can be changed by changing the ending. You don't need an entirely new word. Pro stasis is not the female equivalent of masculine overseer. You are way off base. Leave the Greek alone. You don't know what you are talking about.
 

101G

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2 wormwood,
First, I'd appreciate it if you didn't question my salvation because I disagree with your biblical exegesis.
if you agree with me or not, makes no difference of my or your salvation. if you know that you're save, why worry about it?. did not the apostle question the Galatians salvation? 1:6 "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel". have Faith, or else its sin. but I'll honor your request.

Second, I try to respond when I have time. I'm busy so if it takes me a while, please be patient.
I will.

Third, I never said I did not believe women can be deaconesses. I believe this is very possible. The roles of elders and deacons are different in many aspects.
there is no Greek word for "deaconess". plain and simple, not in the bible. if all these qualification was "likewise for the bishop" this was no mere helper position, as in some believe, "hired help".
 

KingJ

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101g you fail not only at hermeneutics but also at logic and lateral thought.

If a woman was created to lead a man, why were woman created a weaker sex?

How does a woman run a church when she is pregnant? How does a woman preach loud enough with no microphone? How does a woman force her view on others without coming across butch? What guy in his right mind is attracted to a butch woman?

I am sure many woman who preach mean well. I respect them and I know that a few have gone through hard times. But they are out of place. It is only in these evil days where confusion abounds that you will find such.
 

101G

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2 KingJ, GINOLJC
I started not to respond to this, but you make it so plain, how Ignorant you are. using a lame excuse, and language unbecoming a Christian.

How does a woman run a church when she is pregnant?

Oh my gosh, I hope her husband is pregnant too!. listen, not just any and every person, be it a male or female takes this position, they must desire it. they know what they are getting into. they are not a "novice,". these people who are called, and or given to the ministry or desire the work, our Lord know them and their heart. did he not pick one that was a "devil"?. the Lord know what he is doing.

How does a woman preach loud enough with no microphone?

your not listening to her anyway, so why you want to hear. but any way. one don't have to scream, in the preaching of the gospel. God will attuned your ears to hear if you want to hear. or just turn up the volume on your hearing aide. or arrangement can be made for you to move to the front so that you can hear. and don,'t worry the mike want be broke every Sunday. but if it is, then you need to take it upon yourself to see to it that the mike is in good working order every Sunday. now that's called being a helper, :D . help a sister out.

How does a woman force her view on others without coming across butch? What guy in his right mind is attracted to a butch woman?

why she want to force her views on anyone, she only speaks the truth. it up to you to hear. those who have ears, let them hear. and as for butch, you can leave that at your own front door before you leave home. thank you.

I am sure many woman who preach mean well. I respect them and I know that a few have gone through hard times. But they are out of place. It is only in these evil days where confusion abounds that you will find such.

if you knew a pastor who went through hard times and did not help in any kind of way, then your worst that an infidel. even the Lord Jesus said LOVE YOUR ENEMIES, but I see, you view women worst than an enemy. why is your heart so hard?. and as for out of place, you been out of place by your respond to this topic.
as a matter of fact if you can't respond honorably, don't respond at all. and your personal views of someone else have no place in this topic. thanking you in advance.
 

7angels

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wormwood and 101g

first off, even as you asked 101g to lay off on questioning your salvation(which was the right thing to do) you need to lay off 101g trying to understand Greek so she can better get a grasp of the meaning of words(you are being a hypocrite by not wanting her to do something but then you go ahead and do the same thing yourself). 101g please lay off the insults to kingj(just because one person insults us does not mean see should do the same). no offense intended to any of you.

i would like to go back to 1 tim 3 which describes the requirements for bishop. first i would like to know if everyone of these requirements are necessary to become a bishop? if not why do we get so upset when women pastors don't meet all the qualifications? if we are to follow all the qualifications then jesus and paul would be disqualified because they were not married and i find it hard to believe that we would turn Jesus or paul away from that position. we cannot operate by 2 different standards because that is wrong.

God bless
 

101G

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2 7angels, greeting
None taken. and two if I insulted anyone, excuse me. but as the apostle Paul said, "I am what I am". and three I stand by my assessment, on this topic.

be blessed.

i would like to go back to 1 tim 3 which describes the requirements for bishop. first i would like to know if everyone of these requirements are necessary to become a bishop? if not why do we get so upset when women pastors don't meet all the qualifications? if we are to follow all the qualifications then jesus and paul would be disqualified because they were not married and i find it hard to believe that we would turn Jesus or paul away from that position. we cannot operate by 2 different standards because that is wrong.

2 wrongs don't make one right, also throw in Timothy, he was not married. and still, no one have explain the Greek word for deaconess. since some have said that an order arose in the early church. please give scripture for "deaconess". and two I'm still waiting for the Greek words that makes a distinction between "Servant", "Minister", and "Deacon".