Female Pastors

[Polt]

Now, knowing this. I always wondered why the translators used the word "SERVANT" in Roman 16:1 to identify our sister Phebe, instead of the same word "DEACON". it means the same, right?. or do it?. here's my OPINION, and only my opinion. Deacon served tables, Servants the same word "PREACH THE GOSPEL".

You recognize that Deacon has two meanings. Then you assume a certain meaning with Phoebe to prove that Paul referred to her with that certain meaning.

If Paul had said she preached the Gospel, then you wouldn't be guilty of circular reasoning.

 

[101G]

2 wormwood,
don't change the setting, is the word "woman" in 1 Timothy 2:12 a wife yes or no?. answer please. sorry thought that was wormwood.


2 Polt
Then you assume a certain meaning with Phoebe to prove that Paul referred to her with that certain meaning.
If Paul had said she preached the Gospel, then you wouldn't be guilty of circular reasoning.

sorry that will not work, she was "SERVANT" of the church which is at Cenchrea. the scriptures states it,

 

[Polt]

sorry that will not work, she was "SERVANT" of the church which is at Cenchrea. the scriptures states it,

Being a servant of a church doesn't mean preaching the gospel. It could just mean waiting tables during Communion or delivering epistles.

 

[101G]

2 polt, in the name of the Lord Jesus.

re-look at post #378 above.

2 polt,

have you understood the post?. this close the case on any excuse.


2 Polt, and wormwood
its getting late, I'll see you fellas tomorrow.

be blessed.

 

[Selene]

2 ChristRoseFromTheDead,
(smile), LOL, now you know that you are wrong for that, LOL putting his wife over him. LOL. that's a good one, LOL.

Oh well,

2 wormwood,
lets get this straight. #1. Phebe our sister was a deacon IN THE CHURCH, minister, or servant. that's a bible fact. #2. Deacons are to be the husband of one wife, that's a bible fact. here's the dilemma, Phebe was a female. so how is she going to have one wife?. are you prepared to go down the road of same sex marriages?. or the alternative is this, the scriptures is speaking to men who might have more that one wife. now if you go off the deep end as some have did, and say this is for married men only, then you deny the faith, and call the scriptures a lie. so which one is it?.

The Greek word for Deacon has more than one meaning. You are correct that the Greek word could also mean "servant." In the case of Phoebe, she was a "Servant" and nothing more than that. The office of Deacon, however, is a male position because these men are there for the priesthood.

In the same way, the English word "President" also has different meanings. When a person is called a "President" that does not mean they are a ruler of a country. The word President also mean the officer of a club or a leader of a company. The President of a business is not the same as the President of the United States.

 

[101G]

2 my dear sister Selene, GINOLJC,

The Greek word for Deacon has more than one meaning. You are correct that the Greek word could also mean "servant." In the case of Phoebe, she was a "Servant" and nothing more than that. The office of Deacon, however, is a male position because these men are there for the priesthood.

first of all I ask you to benefit from this posting, and be edified. let not personal beliefs, man made doctrine, religious dogma blind you from the truth. change is hard, especially in the religious world. but I remind you, that your religious beliefs was taught to you by some man or woman. all I'm asking you is to just look at the facts. even the LORD GOD almighty said, "come let us reason together". I ask the same thing. can you at least objectively look at the reasoning without your beliefs getting in the way.
and two, you're right, she is a "SERVANT". did you not read the definition of the "SERVANT" of GOD?. let me post it again for you. it's the Greek word, G32 ἄγγελος aggelos (ang'-el-os) n.
1. a messenger
2. (especially) an "angel" of God
3. (of evil, Satan) a demon
4. (by implication) a person carrying forth a message from God, i.e. a servant (a disciple, pastor, elder, prophet, etc.)
5. (also, by implication) a thing or event carrying forth a message from God, i.e. a hardship (pestilence, wind, etc.), or an animal (donkey, locusts, etc.))
[from aggello "to bring tidings" (possibly derived from G71)]
KJV: angel, messenger
Compare: G34
See also: G71

did you see the implication, a Person, (and by the way, the Lord is no respecter of PERSONS). a Person carrying forth a message from God. did you notice the one who carries the message. take note, a "SERVANT" and it specify the kind of SERVANT that carries God message. #1. a disciple, #2. a pastor, #3. an elder, #4. a Prophet, and the rest of the ministry offices and gifts, see the ect.... at the end meaning more are to be listed. so look at definition #4 again, all of these office holders are called "SERVANT". see the list Selene, another thing. our Lord and Saviour said this, Matthew 20:28 "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many". and you do know what that word "minister", means here?. G1247 διακονέω diakoneo (dee-ak-on-eh'-o) v.
1. to be an attendant, to wait upon (menially or as a host, friend)
2. (figuratively) to serve as a teacher
3. (technically) to act as a Christian steward (deacon)
[from G1249]
KJV: (ad-)minister (unto), serve, use the office of a deacon
Root(s): G1249

when one is in these positions, they minister, or administrate, supportive scripture, 1 Corinthians 12:4 "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord". look up the word adninistration and see what it means. oh yes there are differences of administrations
but it's the same Lord. and did not our lord teach, and preached the Gospel also?. Matthew 4:17 "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand". was not our Lord an attendant, "SERVANT". just as our sister Phebe followed in his foot steps, a "SERVANT". we need to humble our selves, and follow in his foot steps. maybe we need to wait on a few tables and people, before we get to see the light. instead of putting people down just for their gender, we ought to be servant first, before we can tell our brother to get the mot out of their eyes, and serve. in the spirit of our Lord, let us see correctly first.
In the same way, the English word "President" also has different meanings. When a person is called a "President" that does not mean they are a ruler of a country. The word President also mean the officer of a club or a leader of a company. The President of a business is not the same as the President of the United States.
#1. is the president "over you", as an "overseer" of the entire country?. yes, and have not he been put over us by God?. scripture, Romans 13:1 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing". these are "civil authority". this is not about religious leaders. AND TAKE NOTE: verse 4 "For he is the minister of God to thee for good". and you know what that word "minister" means here right. since we have different meaning of the word.

#2. is he not the "LEADER" of the country?. and as been said, "the leader of the free world". is he not in "authority"?.

so this play on words want work either. again, I ask re-read the opening post and go into prayer and ask the Lord for wisdom to understand this, see I said please.

be blessed, and edified.


***********************************************
DEACON JESUS. you have never see the Lord in this light before have you. and get this he didn't have a wife. there are many hidden mysteries of the bible, just waiting to be unlocked. but one must have the key holder to open the lock. and the one who have the KEYS is the Lord, or may I say DEACON JESUS. is it not true that a DEACON, 1 Timothy 3:9 "Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience". how many deacon you know that are Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience?...... not many. there is more to an office that just holding the title. maybe we need to start a topic on offices and titles vs the spiritual gifts. it might just open some eyes.


to all who follow this topic, Greeting from the Lord Jesus the Christ.

to those who made a valiant, or stout-hearted effort to HOLD ONTO OLD TRADITIONS OF MEN CONCERNING WOMEN IN THE "MINISTRY" ESPECIALLY IN LEADERSHIP. I thank you for your effort. you brought out many good point that I haven't encounter before. but they was all good and I thank you for them. but the Lord Jesus always prevails in the end, and I hope with the information discussed here on this topic will also make you overcomer with scripture to stand on in the face of opposition concerining women in leadership in the Church. for this topic was for our EDIFICATION, at least it edified my limited understanding of Spiritual gifts and offices within the Church body. may the Body of our Lord Jesus the Christ stand together in harmony in future matters concerning this topic of "Female Pastors", or females in general when it comes to the things of the Lord.

May the only TRUE and LIVING GOD bless you all richly.

P.S. Happy Mothers Day to all


Love and Peace

 

[Wormwood]

101G,

That word should not be translated "wife." Look at the context. Paul talks about the dress of women, holy women of the past, and Adam and Eve. The "woman" was decieved, not the man. This is so obviously intended as a contrast in gender in this entire context that it is abundantly clear. I don't know of one translation that uses the word "wife" in this context. Considering most translations consist of about 50 - 100 Greek scholars, I would say it is pretty overwhelming (ESV, NIV, ASV, NRSV, KJV, RSV, etc.). The only reason someone would translate that word "wife" in that instance is if they have a theological agenda. Furthermore, "elders" in the Jewish synogogue were always men. If Paul was setting a different standard for the Church, he certainly would have expressly stated it.

So basically your argument is 1) gyne is this context is translated wife...so only wives cant be elders. 2) When Paul says "the husband of one wife" this applies only to married men, and though he never mentions women as elders and uses all masculine phrases both here and to Titus, we can insert women... just because..well just because. 3) Also, since Paul says Phoebe was a "servant" that this means she held the office of a Deacon in the church and therefore we can assume based on this speculation that we can further speculate that this means women were elders as well since Deacons had the requirement of being "husbands of one wife."

Cant you see that your entire theology on this matter is based wholly on assumption and reading between the lines things that are never actually said? There is NO instance in early church history of women being elders of the church. If we were removed from our culture and all our cultural expectations and only had the Bible as a reference point, you would never come to this conclusion in your interpretation. That is a fact. You are being shaped by cultural expectations on this matter, not the Biblical text.

 

[101G]

2 ww,

That word should not be translated "wife." Look at the context. Paul talks about the dress of women, holy women of the past, and Adam and Eve. The "woman" was decieved, not the man. This is so obviously intended as a contrast in gender in this entire context that it is abundantly clear. I don't know of one translation that uses the word "wife" in this context. Considering most translations consist of about 50 - 100 Greek scholars, I would say it is pretty overwhelming. The only reason someone would translate that word "wife" in that instance is if they have a theological agenda. Furthermore, "elders" in the Jewish synogogue were always men. If Paul was setting a different standard, he certainly would have expressly stated it.


That word should not be translated "wife." Look at the context?. yes lets look at CONTEXT, look at verse 15 of 1 Timothy 2, just a few verses down, "Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety".
now wormwood, honestly and truthfully what kind of woman, legally suppose to bare Children?, that's right, a MARRIED ONE, by her OWN HUSBAND. case closed. now lets settle this thing across the bible. the same Greek word for woman in 1 Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law". now, how do I know that this verse is talking about a wife. remember CONTEXT, the very next verse say so. listen, verse 35 "And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church". now again wormwood, honestly and truthfully what kind of woman have a husband?. that's right a wife. it said let them ask their HUSBAND at home. case close again.

I can't believe you missed that.

 

[KingJ]

2 polt,
you are correct. and also thanks for being a man in steeping up to the plate on that abusive language of KJ. all women are #1. someone Mother, 2. Sister, or 3. relative.

You have a chip on your shoulder. Why?

Woman are a weaker sex, 1 Peter 3:7, 1 Cor 11:9. It is NOT derogatory. It is the way God made us. We need to accept who we are and what our strengths and weaknesses are.

Polt did nothing more then you did in addressing one of many arguments that can be raised.

You assume you are standing up for woman...but you are only helping to push them over the edge and cunningly mock and dodge scripture / create a blur / cause just enough doubt to prompt many to disregard / alter what is clearly written (ie heretic).

2 wormwood,
101G, that argument might make sense if Paul didn't prohibit women from teaching and make teaching a requirement for elders. "I do not permit a woman to teach." "An elder must be able to teach." You can dance around the marriage thing all you want but this is about as plain as it gets.
but it do make sense, because the apostle Paul was talking about wives. look at the word woman in 1 Timothy 2:12 "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence". so if the word translate wife, then my point is made.

No, not even if it was. Home life different to church life? :blink:

let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church". now again wormwood, honestly and truthfully what kind of woman have a husband?. that's right a wife. it said let them ask their HUSBAND at home. case close again.

I can't believe you missed that.

ROFL, I cant believe you missed this ''for it is a shame for women to speak in the church''.

Even if there is some validity to your argument, it comes across as inflammatory and not substantive. A pregnant preacher need only miss a couple of Sundays, if even that. No big deal. And, the pregnancy angle doesn't even apply to older women (the senior pastor should be older).

How does it come across inflammatory? It is an obvious observation that should need no support. God made woman to bear children. Back in the day when protective sex was dangerous, woman were pregnant often. A pregnant woman is not fit to pastor a church for many months. The pregnany angle is huge as it shows God's purpose for leadership clearly! If God wanted woman to pastor a church, He would have had men bear / breast feed children.

A pastor does not have to be an elder. But they do have to submit to elders. Scripture clearly says an elder is not be a woman, Titus 1:6 An elder must be blameless, faithful to his wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.

 

[101G]

2 king j, greeting

you're a nickel short and light years late. you must be one of the last "MALE" dinosaurs trying to hang on to your male ego. but I'll speak as the apostle spoke, but to you, 2 Timothy 3:1 "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men (that's you king j), shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, (now that's you in the flesh), trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, (got you again), lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth".

so king j, your words mean nothing. only Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof.


all you do is talk, no scripture. and if you given any scripture, those have been proved out, and explaine. so you're are without scripture. and the only thing you have left is only excuses. "what if". the apostle said, "from such turn away".


if you don't have anything constructive to add to the topic, don't add anything.

thanking you in advance.

 

[KingJ]

Flustered, aren't we...

You keep assuming that considering woman a weaker sex is derogotary / male ego...you need to discern better before passing wild / false accusations like a fool.

I have quoted ample scripture...but truthfully...the only scripture you really need is ''let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church".

There is nothing to discuss. I am truly amazed at the lengths you have gone too to dance around scripture.

 

[101G]

2 kj
I have quoted ample scripture...but truthfully...the only scripture you really need is ''let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church".
There is nothing to discuss. I am truly amazed at the lengths you have gone too to dance around scripture. The only foolish part to my posts is expecting you to be open and truthful about your agenda.

LOL, ok, the scripture you gave, 'let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church". is this speaking to all women in the church or just the married ones? and why was he speaking to them?. please answer.

 

[KingJ]

LOL, ok, the scripture you gave, 'let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church". is this speaking to all women in the church or just the married ones? and why was he speaking to them?. please answer.

Are you for real? MaRrIeD wOmAn = WoMaN

I am keen to see you dance around this...gogo... I am watching

 

[101G]

answer the question, and quit dancing around the question
G1135 γυνή gune (goo-nay') n.
1. a woman
2. (specially) a wife
[probably from the base of G1096]
KJV: wife, woman
Root(s): G1096

 

[KingJ]

Please just get to your point. You are tiresome.

 

[101G]

the point is, ignorant men trying to teach that which they have no clue of. that's point #1. the apostle was not silencing women as a whole. for they was prophets also. but if one would read the verses before verse 34 then one could see the reason why the apostle made the statement. and my second point. the word women here is "wife". because the only woman who have a husband is a wife. so the statement was directed at the wives for a reason. but women in GENERAL was permitted to speak, preach, teach and pray in church.

 

[Angelina]

I have no issue with women pastors but I have never been in a Church pastored by a woman. I would think that it would be quite a difficult task since God made women to be nurturer's and helpmates. I would think that she would need a strong team of male leaders behind her...JMHO :huh:

 

[101G]

2 Angelina, greeting in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
I have no issue with women pastors but I have never been in a Church pastored by a woman. I would think that it would be quite a difficult task since God made women to be nurturer's and helpmates. I would think that she would need a strong team of male leaders behind her...JMHO :huh:

please don't take this the wrong way, what is your calling?. to be a wife. NOT ALL ARE. I suggest you read 1 Corinthians chapter 7, the whole chapter, and understand the calling of God, because all are not called to be married. and after 1Corinthians chapter 7. to understand a wife and husband role, see 1 Peter chapter 3.

Boy Oh Boy, we are not getting this. a husband and wife relationship at home is only an example to members in the church, to shows the relationship of Christ and the church. this is not the standard rule for total church rules and regulation. husband as the head of the church?. the church already have a head and that's the lord Jesus Christ. so don't take what at home and apply it to the church. it only shows a "LOVING RELATIONSHIP" that each and everyone should have with Christ Jesus and each other. rule over is a permission, meaning one submit. as we submit to Christ, so in a husband and wife marriage, the wife submit, or give the husband the right/permission to set the rules and regulation in the home. but the husband do it justly, and honorable. Genesis 3:16 "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee". "RULE OVER", not "rule". big difference, and Elder of the Church "RULE OVER", not "rule you". they lead by example, for they seek your good in spiritual thing concerning the Lord. as a husband should seek for his wife good concerning secular things at HOME.

as for rule over, which is by permission. as in a marriage vows, the woman submit. giving the husband the right to "Protect", "provide", "Care", "Love", ect.... must I go on.


husband and wife is a topic all unto it self. maybe we need to start that topic.

 

[Angelina]

what is your calling?. to be a wife.

My calling is to listen and obey God's will. not married...can't see it happening in the future either my friends have put me off for life!

Be Blessed!

 

[101G]

Matthew 19:10 "His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry. 11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given. 12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.