Female Pastors

[101G]

1 Timothy 3:1 "This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. STOP, if "any", (male or Female, meaning a believer, or a Christian called of God), desire a good work.
the word MAN here is combined with the word "if", meaning "any". it's the Greek word,
G1536 εἰ τίς ei tis (ei tis') cond.
1. if any
[from G1487 and G5100]
KJV: he that, if a(-ny) man('s thing, from any, ought), whether any, whosoever
Root(s): G1487, G5100

we know that if "any" desire the bishopric, desire a good work. notice the word man is not translate here, and especially not as "MALE ONLY".
Follow the CONTEXT of the before Chapters 1 & 2 respectfully. then one can plainly see that the apostle was speaking to the husbands. re-read 1 Timothy 1:1- onward. then one can see that this chapter 3, continue on about the HUSBAND desiring the work of of Bishop/Overseer, because the subject is on the HUSBAND, going into chapter 3.
1 Timothy 3:2 "A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach". if this was a qualification for men, (Male) only, and the Married only, then the apostle Paul and Timothy would be disqualified, because both was not married. but was Paul or Timothy an Elder, overseer, bishop, or Pastor themself?.
1 Timothy 4:6 "If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. 7 But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness. 8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come. 9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 11 These things command and teach. 12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity. 13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. 14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. 15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.2 16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee".

was Timothy an elder?. lets see, An Elder is to be "AN EXAMPLE" to the flock, right?, listen, verse 12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.was he in charge?, verse 11 "These things command and teach". well, 101 that sound good, but do you have another scripture example to back this up, glad you asked, YES, 1 Peter 5:1 "The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock". there it is ELDERS ARE TO BE "EXAMPLES" TO THE FLOCK OF GOD". all these thing are the mark of a bishop/overseer, listen to the apostle Peter, "Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind".

so this word "minister", holds an important role. so was our sister, who is a "minister".

verse 6 "If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ"
this word "minister", here in 1 Timothy 4:6 is the SAME Greek word for "minister". that our sister Phebe is. scripture, Romans 16:1 " I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea".
G1249 διάκονος diakonos (dee-ak'-on-os) n.
1. an attendant, a servant
2. (genitive case) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties)
3. (specially) a male Christian serving in a specific function and post (i.e. tending the widows and the poor, teaching, pastoring, etc)
[probably from an obsolete diako "to run on errands"]
KJV: deacon, minister, servant
Compare: G1377
see that word "tending" above in definition #3. that's what a shepherd do "tend the flock"
LOOK UP THE TWO WORDS, "minister", and "servant", THEY ARE THE SAME.
now back to 1 Timothy 4:6. Timothy had the authority to "COMMAND" and to "TEACH". verse 11 These things command and teach. so did our sister Phebe. that's why the apostle Paul commended her to the church at Rome. that word "commend" is "APPROVE". based on our sister performances at the church at Cenchrea, the apostle APPROVES HER WORK TO THE CHURCH AT ROME. for even he saw it, " for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also". she was a "help" to Paul. listen, 1 Corinthians 3:5 "Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. 8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour". now if one would read the CONTEXT, it was about who was the best preacher, Paul or Apollos. well the apostle settles that question, verse 5 "Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?". so who was the best, WATCH THIS, "THEY ARE ONE". and another,
now this is interesting, the apostle said that he was a "minister". well, well, well, yet he is an apostle, a minister could be any of the gifted person called by our Lord and Saviour Jesus the Christ. as in Ephesians 4:11 "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers". well the bible is getting smaller, in understanding.
I suggest one re-read these scriptures and get the full impact of who these "GIFTS" are, and their functions.

be blessed.

Greeting in the name of the Lord Jesus the Christ
to all who follow this topic. it might be a need to re-examine the roles and the functions of officers, and or offices in the body of Christ. many still don't know what the function of an apostle, prophet, teacher, pastor, ect......do.
for example, most know Paul as the apostle. many don't know that he was a prophet, pastor, and a teacher. but he was most known as an apostle.
Just what roles are the gifted women, and men do in the church?. another example. the chosen 7. most think that they were DEACONS. the scriptures do not call them that Acts 6:1 "And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration. 2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables. 3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business. 4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word".

well if, and I say that with a big IF, if they was Deacons, they wasn't deacons long. because we have record that they was baptizing, and preaching the gospel, among other miracles. is this then what a deacon do?. now why do I say this?, scripture Acts 21:8 "And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him". here the physician Luke clearly Identifies Philip AS ONE OF THE SEVEN (quote unquote deacons, of Acts chapter 6). here he is identified as an "EVANGELIST", and not as a DEACON. and on top of that he have, verse 9 "And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy". prophets, which are preachers, a chip off the old shoulder, so to say. read about Philip, Acts chapter 8.

be blessed.

 

[aspen]

Loving the your wife as Christ loves His church is simply a different way of saying obey/submit to your husband. Married couples are both called to love each other, which includes serving and obeying. Of course it is characteristic of fallen humanity to separate two aspects of love and create one dimensional roles for each other

 

[Episkopos]

What about a man as a mother? Why not go all out!

 

[aspen]

What about a man as a mother? Why not go all out!

Really?

Is your mind really that rigid?

Do you really think I am conjuring a slippery slope? A call for the transgenderization of American, simply by pointing out that Paul used different words to make the same point?

Why don't you show me where I am wrong - because I think it is obvious that obedience = submission = servanthood = Christ's love for the church, rather than fear mongering.

 

[101G]

Greeting to all in the name of the Lord Jesus.

to further our understanding of women in the ministry, let continue in 1 Timothy. look at those who rule "well". 1 Timothy 5:17 "Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine". the apostle Paul have given us more information to support the basic of this topic, "WOMAN PASTORS", or overseers . lets look at the word "Rule"
G4291 προΐστημι proistemi (pro-is"'-tay-mee) v.
1. to stand before
2. (in rank) to preside
3. (by implication) to practise
[from G4253 and G2476]
KJV: maintain, be over, rule
Root(s): G4253, G2476

Have we not see this definition before?. YES, this is the Male counter part to our sister Phebe G4368 προστάτις prostatis (pros-tat'-is) n. succourer
1. a patroness, i.e. assistant
[feminine of a derivative of G4291]
KJV: succourer
Root(s): G4291
feminine of a derivative of G4291, here again we have scriptual proof who and what our sister Phebe is, and her function. BISHOP to the Church at Rome.

How many ways must one present this. if one still deny women in the ministry, in the churches, then they deny the word of God.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

to jb, greeting, in the name of the Lord Jesus.

since your co-Hermeneutics experts agrees, that our sister Phebe is a DEACON, quote, "If Phoebe is a leader, she's the only leader in the Bible called a deacon".

now jb, since the bible call her a Servant/DEACON which is the same Greek word.
#1. do you deny the scriptures, Y/N. as you say only a YES or NO will do :blink:

#2. if no, please explain how our sister can be a Servant/Deacon, when the scriptures say 1 Timothy 3:12 "Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well". jb please use your Hermeneutics on this scripture.

I'll be waiting for your answer, or your interpretation.

Have you ever heard of the gift of helps. She is called Called servant and styled assistant.

It is unclear, though, whether Paul is saying Phoebe is a deacon or whether he is just saying she is a servant. In the early church, women servants cared for sick believers, the poor, strangers, and those in prison. They instructed women and children (Titus 2:3-5. Phoebe may not have had the official designation of “deacon” but Paul thought enough of her to entrust her with the tremendous responsibility of delivering the epistle to the Romans to the church in Rome (Romans 16:1-2). Clearly, he saw her as a trusted and valued member of the body of Christ.


Helps - Αντιληψεις. Dr. Lightfoot conjectures that these were the apostles’ helpers; persons who accompanied them, baptized those who were converted by them, and were sent by them to such places as they could not attend to, being otherwise employed.



The term διακόνισσα deaconess is found only in ecclesiastical Greek.

 

[101G]

2 jb
Have you ever heard of the gift of helps. She is called Called servant and styled assistant.

Have you heard of the gift in ministry, one called a LABOURE". I guess not , by your reply.


It is unclear, though, whether Paul is saying Phoebe is a deacon or whether he is just saying she is a servant
know what jb, this scripture describe you perfectly, 2 Timothy 3:7 "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth". this is Doctor Jesus

jb said,
Helps - Αντιληψεις. Dr. Lightfoot conjectures that these were the apostles’ helpers; persons who accompanied them, baptized those who were converted by them, and were sent by them to such places as they could not attend to, being otherwise employed.

1. to stand before
2. (in rank) to preside
3. (by implication) to practise
[from G4253 and G2476]
KJV: maintain, be over, rule
Root(s): G4253, G2476

1. a patroness, i.e. assistant
[feminine of a derivative of G4291]
KJV: succourer
Root(s): G4291

so I guess Dr. Lighfoot must have overlook that these "Helpers", ruled over, and preside over the flock.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

2 jb
Have you ever heard of the gift of helps. She is called Called servant and styled assistant.

Have you heard of the gift in ministry, one called a LABOURE". I guess not , by your reply.


It is unclear, though, whether Paul is saying Phoebe is a deacon or whether he is just saying she is a servant
know what jb, this scripture describe you perfectly, 2 Timothy 3:7 "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth". this is Doctor Jesus

jb said,
Helps - Αντιληψεις. Dr. Lightfoot conjectures that these were the apostles’ helpers; persons who accompanied them, baptized those who were converted by them, and were sent by them to such places as they could not attend to, being otherwise employed.
1. to stand before
2. (in rank) to preside
3. (by implication) to practise
[from G4253 and G2476]
KJV: maintain, be over, rule
Root(s): G4253, G2476

1. a patroness, i.e. assistant
[feminine of a derivative of G4291]
KJV: succourer
Root(s): G4291

so I guess Dr. Lighfoot must have overlook that these "Helpers", ruled over, and preside over the flock.

Since there's no solid evidence for female leaders/rulers, then all that you are saying is conjecture. Rather there's ample evidence that the male alone by God is given the authoritative role and infact is systemic throughout scripture. Your isolated scriptures and your fallacious reasoning, just doesn't stack up against the insurmountable evidence that is within scripture.

A word study doesn't amount to good exegesis. To be thorough one has to start with context and then test against other known scriptures and ultimately the whole word of God. Your word study, just doesn't do this. What your suggesting is that God changed his mind some time and improved the system by correcting himself.

Bottom line is if Eve was as complete as you infer, there would have been no way for her to be deceived. Clearly, when God created Man and Woman he fitted them both out to serve his purpose and since the Garden of Eden is the best state man has been in this side of heaven. I find it impossible to believe that a sinful fallen woman is able to improve on Eve, whether she have Holy Spirit or not.

The bottom line is that the order of creation has not been rescinded. It will not until... .

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.


And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 1Co 15:24-28



For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 1Co 14:33,34-35




If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. 1Co 14:37-38

 

[jiggyfly]

I find it impossible to believe that a sinful fallen woman is able to improve on Eve, whether she have Holy Spirit or not.

Really? You may want to rethink your position on this one and change your mind. Did Eve have HolySpirit living within herself?

 

[101G]

to jb, greeting
Since there's no solid evidence for female leaders/rulers.

what wrong, scared, fear got you?.

I have presented wholesome words, straight out of the word of God, but you deny the faith. listen. 1 Timothy 6:3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings"

you use the same old rhetoric no substance to your words, 1 Timothy 1:6 "From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling". see, out of your own mouth, "And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 1Co 14:33,34-35.

look jb all women in church do not have a HUSBAND. just as I have told your Hermeneutics experts buddy Polt, this topic is not for you. as John on Patmos in revelation said Revelation 22:11 "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still".

so see ya I want play tag with you


To all in the name of the Lord Jesus, Greeting.

the idiotic premise of a man opinion was raised in reference to the interpretation of scriptures. commentaries is only an reference, or a help to understanding the context of scriptures. some, I see, takes other men, (commentaries) as LAW, "THEY MUST BE RIGHT". OPPOSE, to God is RIGHT, "ONLY". for the scriptures states, 2 Peter 1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost".

we are to study to show ourselves "approved" unto God, not men. me personally commentaries is only an aide, and not the final authority. just because some man gave his or her opinion, fine thank you very much. but that's just it, their opinion. if one think that all the knowledge of God was in these men only, then one is a bigger fool that "THEY". commentaries is ok to getting started. but one need the wisdom of God to understand the scriptures. neither an elect, or a non elect can read this bible and understand it "FULLY", amen. with that the apostle James said, "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him".but, but, " let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord". with that said, lets continue.

1 Timothy 3:4 "One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity". if one listen to dr. Lightfoot, one will think that these Holy Christians are just helpers?. lets see,
the words one that "ruleth". is the Greek word,
G4291 προΐστημι proistemi (pro-is"'-tay-mee) v.
1. to stand before
2. (in rank) to preside
3. (by implication) to practise
[from G4253 and G2476]
KJV: maintain, be over, rule
Root(s): G4253, G2476
Clearly this is of an "OVERSEER". let see how it is used in scripture, I will underline and bold the word. judge for yourself, and see if this is a typical helper.
#1. Romans 12:6 "Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; 8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness".

#2. 1 Thessalonians 5:11 "Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. 12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you". (do this sound like an ordinary helper?).

#3. 1 Timothy 3:4 "One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity". (all right you unbelievers, right here in 1 Timothy, your qualification for a BISHOP/OVERSEER. I ask, is this the "helper" as the expert say. if so then all Pastors, and Bishops are, as our experts say, "Helps - Αντιληψεις. Dr. Lightfoot conjectures that these were the apostles’ helpers; persons who accompanied them, baptized those who were converted by them, and were sent by them to such places as they could not attend to, being otherwise employed". you make the call. is dr Lightfoot correct, or the bible. if one follow dr lightfoot, then your Deacons, Pastors, Bishops, and Overseers, and Elders, are only hired helpers, or one who accompanied the apostle. again I say you make the call.
now those who ruleth are called G4291 προΐστημι proistemi (pro-is"'-tay-mee) v.
1. to stand before
2. (in rank) to preside
3. (by implication) to practise
[from G4253 and G2476]
KJV: maintain, be over, rule
Root(s): G4253, G2476
and the female counterpart, Romans 16:2 "That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
the FEMALE COUNTERPART is the Greek word G4368 προστάτις prostatis (pros-tat'-is) n. meaning in English here, "Succourer"
1. a patroness, i.e. assistant
[feminine of a derivative of G4291]
KJV: succourer
Root(s): G4291

an "Assitant"?. translate as minister, officer, servant, see below.
G5257 ὑπηρέτης huperetes (hoop-ay-ret'-ace) n.
1. an assistant or helper
2. (literally) an under-oarsman
3. (generally) a subordinate
[from G5259 and a derivative of eresso "to row"]
KJV: minister, officer, servant
Root(s): G5259

so a Deacon, Bishop, an Overseer, "Rule", or "watch", "over".
G4165 ποιμαίνω poimaino (poy-mai'-no) v.
1. to tend as a shepherd of
2. (figuratively) supervisor
[from G4166]
KJV: feed (cattle), rule
Root(s): G4166
Acts 20:28 "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood".

well, well, well, these "HEPLERS", are to FEED the flock of God.

since we don't have any Hermeneutics experts here. lets just use the Wisdom of God to prove the lie of these experts. if Pastors, Bishops, and Overseers are just helpers to the Apostles. why are they listed with the saints at Philippians 1:1 "Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons". now you Hermeneutics experts read your commentaries on this verse.



be blessed.





JUST HOW MANY WAYS MUST ONE EXPLAINE THIS?.

 

[pastor franszwa]

Rules : Disgraceful
It is written and must be known. { It is unmistakable clear}
1Corinthians 14:34
Women should remain silent in churches. They are not allowed to speak,
but must be in submission , as the law says.
1Cointhians 14:35
If they want to inquire about something,
they should ask their husbands at home,
for it is disgraceful for a women
to speak in the church.
1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Ephesians 5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient.
Matthew 5:19
Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Galatians 1:8
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
Isaiah 55:11
so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
Acts 20:26
Therefore, I declare to you today that I am innocent of the blood of all men.

Luke 19:40
"I tell you," he replied, "if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out." [ I’m one of this Stones ]

abba4youall.net

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Really? You may want to rethink your position on this one and change your mind. Did Eve have HolySpirit living within herself?

Allow me to qualify what I mean. Woman was created a certain way, intellectually, morally and physically. She was naturally at her peak, yet she managed to be duped by the serpent. Keep in mind God personally visited and spoke, so she had first hand experience as it were.

Now, due to the fall, how has she improved, as by nature not only is she not naturally as gifted as eve but she has undergone a character change that has affected her psyche. So to argue that because now she may have the Holy Spirit is no argument for success, As she yet has to have her natural inclination subdued to begin the process of exchange. According to the word if this takes place it's an exception not the rule. see - 1 Cor 14:35.

to jb, greeting
Since there's no solid evidence for female leaders/rulers.

what wrong, scared, fear got you?.

I have presented wholesome words, straight out of the word of God, but you deny the faith. listen. 1 Timothy 6:3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings"

you use the same old rhetoric no substance to your words, 1 Timothy 1:6 "From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling". see, out of your own mouth, "And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 1Co 14:33,34-35.

look jb all women in church do not have a HUSBAND. just as I have told your Hermeneutics experts buddy Polt, this topic is not for you. as John on Patmos in revelation said Revelation 22:11 "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still".

so see ya I want play tag with you

To all in the name of the Lord Jesus, Greeting.
the idiotic premise of a man opinion was raised in reference to the interpretation of scriptures. commentaries is only an reference, or a help to understanding the context of scriptures. some, I see, takes other men, (commentaries) as LAW, "THEY MUST BE RIGHT". OPPOSE, to God is RIGHT, "ONLY". for the scriptures states, 2 Peter 1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost".

we are to study to show ourselves "approved" unto God, not men. me personally commentaries is only an aide, and not the final authority. just because some man gave his or her opinion, fine thank you very much. but that's just it, their opinion. if one think that all the knowledge of God was in these men only, then one is a bigger fool that "THEY". commentaries is ok to getting started. but one need the wisdom of God to understand the scriptures. neither an elect, or a non elect can read this bible and understand it "FULLY", amen. with that the apostle James said, "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him".but, but, " let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord". with that said, lets continue.

1 Timothy 3:4 "One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity". if one listen to dr. Lightfoot, one will think that these Holy Christians are just helpers?. lets see,
the words one that "ruleth". is the Greek word,
G4291 προΐστημι proistemi (pro-is"'-tay-mee) v.
1. to stand before
2. (in rank) to preside
3. (by implication) to practise
[from G4253 and G2476]
KJV: maintain, be over, rule
Root(s): G4253, G2476
Clearly this is of an "OVERSEER". let see how it is used in scripture, I will underline and bold the word. judge for yourself, and see if this is a typical helper.
#1. Romans 12:6 "Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; 8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness".

#2. 1 Thessalonians 5:11 "Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. 12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you". (do this sound like an ordinary helper?).

#3. 1 Timothy 3:4 "One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity". (all right you unbelievers, right here in 1 Timothy, your qualification for a BISHOP/OVERSEER. I ask, is this the "helper" as the expert say. if so then all Pastors, and Bishops are, as our experts say, "Helps - Αντιληψεις. Dr. Lightfoot conjectures that these were the apostles’ helpers; persons who accompanied them, baptized those who were converted by them, and were sent by them to such places as they could not attend to, being otherwise employed". you make the call. is dr Lightfoot correct, or the bible. if one follow dr lightfoot, then your Deacons, Pastors, Bishops, and Overseers, and Elders, are only hired helpers, or one who accompanied the apostle. again I say you make the call.
now those who ruleth are called G4291 προΐστημι proistemi (pro-is"'-tay-mee) v.
1. to stand before
2. (in rank) to preside
3. (by implication) to practise
[from G4253 and G2476]
KJV: maintain, be over, rule
Root(s): G4253, G2476
and the female counterpart, Romans 16:2 "That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
the FEMALE COUNTERPART is the Greek word G4368 προστάτις prostatis (pros-tat'-is) n. meaning in English here, "Succourer"
1. a patroness, i.e. assistant
[feminine of a derivative of G4291]
KJV: succourer
Root(s): G4291

an "Assitant"?. translate as minister, officer, servant, see below.
G5257 ὑπηρέτης huperetes (hoop-ay-ret'-ace) n.
1. an assistant or helper
2. (literally) an under-oarsman
3. (generally) a subordinate
[from G5259 and a derivative of eresso "to row"]
KJV: minister, officer, servant
Root(s): G5259

so a Deacon, Bishop, an Overseer, "Rule", or "watch", "over".
G4165 ποιμαίνω poimaino (poy-mai'-no) v.
1. to tend as a shepherd of
2. (figuratively) supervisor
[from G4166]
KJV: feed (cattle), rule
Root(s): G4166
Acts 20:28 "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood".

well, well, well, these "HEPLERS", are to FEED the flock of God.

since we don't have any Hermeneutics experts here. lets just use the Wisdom of God to prove the lie of these experts. if Pastors, Bishops, and Overseers are just helpers to the Apostles. why are they listed with the saints at Philippians 1:1 "Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons". now you Hermeneutics experts read your commentaries on this verse.



be blessed.





JUST HOW MANY WAYS MUST ONE EXPLAINE THIS?.

I see you walk and talk by the flesh. Carry On!

You can only impress the simple, gullible and 'Jezebels and Ahab's' of this world... . :mellow:

 

[Polt]

1 Timothy 3:4 "One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity". if one listen to dr. Lightfoot, one will think that these Holy Christians are just helpers?. lets see,
the words one that "ruleth". is the Greek word,
G4291 προΐστημι proistemi (pro-is"'-tay-mee) v.
1. to stand before.

101G, where in the Bible is G4291 used as a title for a church leader, or even to describe someone who clearly is a church leader?

You're starting from nothing, and your argument goes downhill from there. It's not a title of a church leader, and still you want to argue that a different word is a title of a church leader because the word looks similar. A funny thing about language is that such reasoning doesn't really work well, even words that look closely related can have very different meanings.

Aside from G4291 not being a title of a church leader, it doesn't really mean ruler. In Titus 3:8 and 14, where G4291 is used, "ruler" flat out doesn't work. But, "helper" works real well. "Help with good deeds". That fact is, this word can mean just helper.

Even in other places where translations use "ruler", something along the lines of "helper" usually still works.

"The elders who rule (G4291) well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching." How about, "the elders who help well..."? Implicitly not all these elders are preaching and teaching, even though G4291 is still used. It can't be shown that this word means leading in this context.

Paul in Romans 12:8, KJV, says "He who leads (G4291) with diligence..." But, nothing in the context tells us this word means leader. It could mean "help others with diligence." In fact, in Titus, Paul twice uses G4291 with doing good deeds, showing that Paul probably does mean "help others with diligence."

There are no reference to Kings or Bishops ruling (G4291). Why not? Because Kings are really rulers/leaders (G758), not helpers (G4291).

 

[101G]

2 my two Hermeneutics expert, Polt, and jb
LOL, as usual, no scripture, you two expert have been dismissed. "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth".
I knew jb couldn't believe, but polt you seen like you can't READ?. see post 310 of this page. if you think this is not speaking of those who have the rule over "YOU", then I know that you're LOST. and you will perish. I hope not.

be blessed. and you're dimissed,


2 pastor franszwa, greeting,
welcome to the topic,

I like that, Luke 19:40
"I tell you," he replied, "if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out." [ I’m one of this Stones ]

 

[jiggyfly]

Allow me to qualify what I mean. Woman was created a certain way, intellectually, morally and physically. She was naturally at her peak, yet she managed to be duped by the serpent. Keep in mind God personally visited and spoke, so she had first hand experience as it were.

Now, due to the fall, how has she improved, as by nature not only is she not naturally as gifted as eve but she has undergone a character change that has affected her psyche. So to argue that because now she may have the Holy Spirit is no argument for success, As she yet has to have her natural inclination subdued to begin the process of exchange. According to the word if this takes place it's an exception not the rule. see - 1 Cor 14:35.

Any scriptures to support your opinion?

 

[domenic]

Pastors are Sheppard’s. Your question is, “Can a female be a Sheppard? There are none in the Bible. Jesus had Sheppard’s, all male. I think we all understand the world is, and has been making females equal in everything. That is the way of the world, and never has been Gods way. If I was a female I don’t think I would push for that.

 

[Rach1370]

You know, I confess to not having read most of the posts here...I have limited time. But it strikes me that many here that are claiming women can be pastors, have either not read God's word on the subject, or are misunderstanding the topic...mainly, the different roles God has given to men and women.

Let's try and work through this both biblically and rationally.
First, we know that God has made man head of the family, just as Christ is head of the Church:

22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. (Ephesians 5:22-23, ESV)

We also know that God has given us Pastors; teachers whom we are to listen to and respect...submit to even:

17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you. (Hebrews 13:17, ESV)

And of these 'teachers and leaders' what does the bible say?

2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, 5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? (1 Timothy 3:2-5, ESV)

Now, I believe some things need to be noted here, based on what the above verses lead us to conclude.
If a woman is to be submissive to her husband, how then is she to take on the biblical role of teacher? If the man is to be head of the woman, but his particular woman is also his pastor, then biblically he must submit to her. Can you not see how this throws God's given order for both men and women away? We should not honour this order just because God has laid it down that way (although in truth that is enough to follow it), but because in his wisdom God has given us a way in which both man and woman (in our sinful natures) may live for God and each other. It gives a harmony in marriage that cannot be there if a woman is struggling to be head, or if a man refuses to be head.
Both roles God has given are holy and needed. There can only be one 'leader', but as every leader knows, the job can almost be impossible without good 'help'. The Holy Spirit was sent as helper...it is a noble role indeed.

Scripture also speaks directly about the roles of women...quite clearly actually...it makes me wonder how people then try to claim anything else....

11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. (1 Timothy 2:11-12, ESV)

Paul clearly states that in Church women should not teach or be in a spot where she can exercise authority over men...which obviously the position of pastor would be.

But as with gender roles in marriage, that does not mean woman are to be useless. Far from it, God has demanded much from us.In 1 Corinthians we see that the Holy Spirit moves in women in much the same way as men...prophesying and other spiritual gifts. And this:

3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, 4 and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled. (Titus 2:3-5, ESV)

Teaching for us is permitted, but not in the role of Pastor. And if people think, for one second that the calling God has given to them; to support and love their husbands, to guide and teach their children and to also facilitate a hundred different things within the Church that is desperately needed but is not teaching, that those things are not enough, then I suspect they are not truly living up to the role that is being asked of them. Asking for more shows a lack of regard for what scriptures reveal as God's demands for us...and perhaps pride in thinking that they should be 'more'. Women have plenty to do, great things to be done for God and for others...but Pastor is not one of them.

11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. (Acts 17:11, ESV)

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. (1 John 4:1, ESV)

And I'm sorry to all those who feel otherwise, but if what you claim is opposed by scripture, then I will not entertain what you say. God has already told us his thoughts on the subject (scripture) and we know that the bible, like it's author, is unchanging. We must look to the bible for the answer here, and I believe it's given it clearly. Women cannot be in a position of pastor without violating God's given 'men are head' 'women submit' roles.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

You know, I confess to not having read most of the posts here...I have limited time. But it strikes me that many here that are claiming women can be pastors, have either not read God's word on the subject, or are misunderstanding the topic...mainly, the different roles God has given to men and women.

Let's try and work through this both biblically and rationally.
First, we know that God has made man head of the family, just as Christ is head of the Church:

22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. (Ephesians 5:22-23, ESV)

We also know that God has given us Pastors; teachers whom we are to listen to and respect...submit to even:

17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you. (Hebrews 13:17, ESV)

And of these 'teachers and leaders' what does the bible say?

2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, 5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? (1 Timothy 3:2-5, ESV)

Now, I believe some things need to be noted here, based on what the above verses lead us to conclude.
If a woman is to be submissive to her husband, how then is she to take on the biblical role of teacher? If the man is to be head of the woman, but his particular woman is also his pastor, then biblically he must submit to her. Can you not see how this throws God's given order for both men and women away? We should not honour this order just because God has laid it down that way (although in truth that is enough to follow it), but because in his wisdom God has given us a way in which both man and woman (in our sinful natures) may live for God and each other. It gives a harmony in marriage that cannot be there if a woman is struggling to be head, or if a man refuses to be head.
Both roles God has given are holy and needed. There can only be one 'leader', but as every leader knows, the job can almost be impossible without good 'help'. The Holy Spirit was sent as helper...it is a noble role indeed.

Scripture also speaks directly about the roles of women...quite clearly actually...it makes me wonder how people then try to claim anything else....

11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. (1 Timothy 2:11-12, ESV)

Paul clearly states that in Church women should not teach or be in a spot where she can exercise authority over men...which obviously the position of pastor would be.

But as with gender roles in marriage, that does not mean woman are to be useless. Far from it, God has demanded much from us.In 1 Corinthians we see that the Holy Spirit moves in women in much the same way as men...prophesying and other spiritual gifts. And this:

3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, 4 and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled. (Titus 2:3-5, ESV)

Teaching for us is permitted, but not in the role of Pastor. And if people think, for one second that the calling God has given to them; to support and love their husbands, to guide and teach their children and to also facilitate a hundred different things within the Church that is desperately needed but is not teaching, that those things are not enough, then I suspect they are not truly living up to the role that is being asked of them. Asking for more shows a lack of regard for what scriptures reveal as God's demands for us...and perhaps pride in thinking that they should be 'more'. Women have plenty to do, great things to be done for God and for others...but Pastor is not one of them.

11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. (Acts 17:11, ESV)

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. (1 John 4:1, ESV)

And I'm sorry to all those who feel otherwise, but if what you claim is opposed by scripture, then I will not entertain what you say. God has already told us his thoughts on the subject (scripture) and we know that the bible, like it's author, is unchanging. We must look to the bible for the answer here, and I believe it's given it clearly. Women cannot be in a position of pastor without violating God's given 'men are head' 'women submit' roles.

You're clearly right. But there is certain person(s), who will argue with you that black is white and left is right and right is wrong and good is bad and bad is good.

You may be subject to mocking by said individual if you persist in speaking cold hard facts(TRUTH). But don't let that deter you, as Polt is still at it, no matter the insults, mocking and derision he may receive, from said individual.

SHALOM, sister. :)

 

[101G]

2 domenic
Pastors are Sheppard’s. Your question is, “Can a female be a Sheppard? There are none in the Bible. Jesus had Sheppard’s, all male. I think we all understand the world is, and has been making females equal in everything. That is the way of the world, and never has been Gods way. If I was a female I don’t think I would push for that.

none in the bible?, Shepherd are to watch over the flock right?. first the position, a woman Shepherd, Rachel, Genesis 29:6. and of the NATION/CHURCH Israel, Judges 4:4 "And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time". a judge was a leader. and this woman lead the whole nation/church. yes the church.


2 Rach
if one don't read, you will be blindly lead. for years, or centuries the church thought that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute. and the church leaders, (men) was wrong. just like Rahab, which I'll get to later on, God willing. and I believe so.


Let's try and work through this both biblically and rationally.
now that's a good statement, " work through this both biblically and rationally."

see my posts on page 6 #168, #172. page 8 post #238. page 11 post #301, #305, these will give you the crust of the matter.

all be bless.

 

[domenic]

Rachel...those were animal sheep…not Gods human sheep
Deborah…was a prophetess and judged Israel. She was not a spiritual Sheppard.
Israel had Kings, (men) they were not spiritual leaders. Why do you think Deborah would be?