Female Pastors

[Dodo_David]

So, how are we to know that a particular person was really sent by God?

They will come displaying the Power of the Spirit of God as a witness to them.

What a vague response that is.

 

[marksman]

A woman cannot be a pastor because she is not the head of the household. She can assist a Pastor, but she is not a pastor nor does she take the title of Pastor. That title belongs only to the man because the man is the head of the household.

A few thoughts according to scripture. A woman can have a shepherding ministry as the five gifts which shepherding is one, were given in Ephesians 4:11 and there is no indication they are for men only.

Shepherding is a ministry not a position so being head of the household is irrelevant.

No one in the New Testament Church took the title of Pastor. The most common designation for all ministries was "servant" which has all but been ditched today.

Pastor is not even in scripture. It is the Latin version of shepherd which is a serving ministry. Very few so called pastors today serve. Mostly they are in charge and tell everyone else what to do especially in the Catholic Church, where the priest's word cannot be challenged.

I found that out when I watched a programme on TV made by a young man who was the recipient of a priest's sexual advances. He was asked why he didn't tell the priest to stop and his reply was "you don't tell a priest what he can and can't do."

 

[zhavoney]

What a vague response that is.

You don't understand?
Does this verse of scripture shed any light on it?
1 Corinthians 2
4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

 

[Selene]

A few thoughts according to scripture. A woman can have a shepherding ministry as the five gifts which shepherding is one, were given in Ephesians 4:11 and there is no indication they are for men only.

Shepherding is a ministry not a position so being head of the household is irrelevant.

No one in the New Testament Church took the title of Pastor. The most common designation for all ministries was "servant" which has all but been ditched today.

Pastor is not even in scripture. It is the Latin version of shepherd which is a serving ministry. Very few so called pastors today serve. Mostly they are in charge and tell everyone else what to do especially in the Catholic Church, where the priest's word cannot be challenged.

I found that out when I watched a programme on TV made by a young man who was the recipient of a priest's sexual advances. He was asked why he didn't tell the priest to stop and his reply was "you don't tell a priest what he can and can't do."

Christ is the Good Shepherd, and He is the Head of the Church (which is His flock). Christ is also the High Priest, and Christ was a man. He is not a female. A female cannot take the position of a priest, pastor, bishop, or Head of the household.

 

[zhavoney]

A woman can do what ever a follower of Christ can do because There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[marksman]

Christ is the Good Shepherd, and He is the Head of the Church (which is His flock). Christ is also the High Priest, and Christ was a man. He is not a female. A female cannot take the position of a priest, pastor, bishop, or Head of the household.

This is a good example of your fuzzy thinking which you seem to use to prop up your unbiblical claims.

Christ being the good shepherd has nothing at all to do with women being pastors.

Christ being head of the church has nothing at all to do with women being pastors.

Christ being the high priest has nothing at all do do with women being pastors.

Christ being a man has nothing at all to do with women being pastors.

And here is where you have really left the track when you said " a female cannot take the position..." and the ones you listed are NOT POSITIONS, they are ministries which are primarily serving, particularly the husband who SERVES his family.

Jesus made it abundantly clear that unless one serves, he is not interested.

Let me reiterate once again. There is no such thing as "a pastor" in the New Testament Church who rules over it. The leadership of this church was by a plurality of ELDERS who were chosen from within the congregation, not imposed from without by some hierarchical organisation which is what most churches, including the Catholic Church, does.

Just as an aside, nowhere does an Elder dress up in special clothes to mark him as different to everyone else and to make him seem spiritually superior. Having been that way myself and having worked in the Catholic system I know what I am talking about.

As for women being shepherds (Latin-pastors) these verse makes it obvious they are.

Titus 2:3 Let the aged women likewise be in reverent behavior, not slanderers, not enslaved by much wine, teachers of good; that they may train the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, subject to their own husbands, that the Word of God may not be blasphemed.

​And please note there is nothing there that indicated they have to go to theological college or dress up in a special way to do this or....be paid a salary.

 

[Dodo_David]

You don't understand?

Does this verse of scripture shed any light on it?
1 Corinthians 2
4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

What is vague is the definition of "demonstration of the Spirit and of power".
What standard do we use to determine whether or not a person is giving a "demonstration of the Spirit and of power"?

 

[Purity]

A woman can do what ever a follower of Christ can do because There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

This is a misquote - out of context. Yes in the future they will be neither male or female nor marrying or giving in marriage, so you cannot use this section of Scripture to uphold your own doctrine.

Big no no!

Lets carry your reasoning and extend it to Christ himself. If we are all one and there is no hierarchical arrangement in place between God - - - > Christ - - - - > Man (Christ) - - - > Woman (Ekklesia = man and woman) then you would also believe Jesus is not your Shepherd (with authority) as the oneness extends to Christ - you are left with One having no authority over the one fold? being ALL one in Christ Jesus does not relate to our individual responsibilities John 10:16; John 17:11; 20-23

The hope is one and the reward is one but the ekklesial structure as left to us by Christ and Paul speaks to Elders, Men, Woman and Children each with their own responsibilities in the Lord.

Hope this helps.

Purity

 

[Selene]

This is a good example of your fuzzy thinking which you seem to use to prop up your unbiblical claims.

Christ being the good shepherd has nothing at all to do with women being pastors.

Christ being head of the church has nothing at all to do with women being pastors.

Christ being the high priest has nothing at all do do with women being pastors.

Christ being a man has nothing at all to do with women being pastors.

And here is where you have really left the track when you said " a female cannot take the position..." and the ones you listed are NOT POSITIONS, they are ministries which are primarily serving, particularly the husband who SERVES his family.

Jesus made it abundantly clear that unless one serves, he is not interested.

Let me reiterate once again. There is no such thing as "a pastor" in the New Testament Church who rules over it. The leadership of this church was by a plurality of ELDERS who were chosen from within the congregation, not imposed from without by some hierarchical organisation which is what most churches, including the Catholic Church, does.

Just as an aside, nowhere does an Elder dress up in special clothes to mark him as different to everyone else and to make him seem spiritually superior. Having been that way myself and having worked in the Catholic system I know what I am talking about.

As for women being shepherds (Latin-pastors) these verse makes it obvious they are.

Titus 2:3 Let the aged women likewise be in reverent behavior, not slanderers, not enslaved by much wine, teachers of good; that they may train the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, subject to their own husbands, that the Word of God may not be blasphemed.

​And please note there is nothing there that indicated they have to go to theological college or dress up in a special way to do this or....be paid a salary.

God created men and women equal as human beings, but different. It was God who gave men and women different roles. He did not give them exactly the same roles. It is only man who wishes men and women to have exactly the same roles and to be the same rather than different. Being different does not mean inequality. It is only man who sees it that way. The man was given the authority to be the head of the house, and the Holy Bible warns us that the woman should never take this authority from the man (See 1 Timothy 2:12).

Men are called to be the Head of the house in the human family (See Ephesians 5:23). It is only man who wishes a woman to be head of the house like her husband because they feel that whatever a man can do, a woman should also be able to do. This is the thinking of the feminist movement.

However, those in Heaven recognize who the Head of the household is. Notice that the Angel Gabriel went to Mary when she was single. After she married Joseph, the Angel Gabriel never went to Mary after that. Instead, he went to Joseph. Gabriel also went to Zacariah and told him that his wife Elizabeth would be pregnant. Gabriel never went to Elizabeth to tell her the news because she was not the head of the house. God also spoke to Abraham who was head of the house. He did not spoke to Sarah, Abraham's wife. As for Hagar, God spoke to her because Hagar was single and didn't have any husband. The head of a single woman is God; therefore, God speaks to her especially when giving instructions or information. But the head of a married woman is her husband, and throughout the Holy Bible, God and the Angels speaks only to the head of the house. If God and the angels were to speak to a married woman, they speak to the Head of the house first before addressing the wife.

Now, let's take a look at Satan. Who did he speak to in the Garden of Eden? Did he speak to Adam? No. He went to Eve and spoke to her. Why didn't Satan go to Adam? He was, after all, the head of the house. Satan knew what he was doing. Satan caused mankind to fall by going through the woman who was never the head of the house.

Ministry belongs to all Christians......meaning that even a woman can preach the Gospel to non-Christians. But the position of priest belongs to the man because God has always called men to be priests in the Old Testament (See Numbers 3:3; 2 Chronicles 13:10). In the Old Testament, God only chose men to the office of priesthood, and in the New Testament, He chose only men to be His Apostles. In the family of God, Christ (who is a man) is the Head of the Church.....and Christ's representatives on earth who are called to take care of His entire flock (Church) are also men. Why? Because the wife represents the Church and the husband represents Christ (See Ephesians 5:23-32).

 

[jiggyfly]

A woman can do what ever a follower of Christ can do because There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Does that mean she can be married to another woman since neither sex is recognized?

 

[IanLC]

Im

God created men and women equal as human beings, but different. It was God who gave men and women different roles. He did not give them exactly the same roles. It is only man who wishes men and women to have exactly the same roles and to be the same rather than different. Being different does not mean inequality. It is only man who sees it that way. The man was given the authority to be the head of the house, and the Holy Bible warns us that the woman should never take this authority from the man (See 1 Timothy 2:12).

Men are called to be the Head of the house in the human family (See Ephesians 5:23). It is only man who wishes a woman to be head of the house like her husband because they feel that whatever a man can do, a woman should also be able to do. This is the thinking of the feminist movement.

However, those in Heaven recognize who the Head of the household is. Notice that the Angel Gabriel went to Mary when she was single. After she married Joseph, the Angel Gabriel never went to Mary after that. Instead, he went to Joseph. Gabriel also went to Zacariah and told him that his wife Elizabeth would be pregnant. Gabriel never went to Elizabeth to tell her the news because she was not the head of the house. God also spoke to Abraham who was head of the house. He did not spoke to Sarah, Abraham's wife. As for Hagar, God spoke to her because Hagar was single and didn't have any husband. The head of a single woman is God; therefore, God speaks to her especially when giving instructions or information. But the head of a married woman is her husband, and throughout the Holy Bible, God and the Angels speaks only to the head of the house. If God and the angels were to speak to a married woman, they speak to the Head of the house first before addressing the wife.

Now, let's take a look at Satan. Who did he speak to in the Garden of Eden? Did he speak to Adam? No. He went to Eve and spoke to her. Why didn't Satan go to Adam? He was, after all, the head of the house. Satan knew what he was doing. Satan caused mankind to fall by going through the woman who was never the head of the house.

Ministry belongs to all Christians......meaning that even a woman can preach the Gospel to non-Christians. But the position of priest belongs to the man because God has always called men to be priests in the Old Testament (See Numbers 3:3; 2 Chronicles 13:10). In the Old Testament, God only chose men to the office of priesthood, and in the New Testament, He chose only men to be His Apostles. In the family of God, Christ (who is a man) is the Head of the Church.....and Christ's representatives on earth who are called to take care of His entire flock (Church) are also men. Why? Because the wife represents the Church and the husband represents Christ (See Ephesians 5:23-32).

I'm just asking.. by your statement so a single woman can serve as a pastor? What about women in ministry positions such as an evangelist, missionary, prophetess, associate minister, co-pastors with their husbands or assistant pastors to men? I truly want to know your take and position on this.

 

[servant]

I say yes. In scripture we read about a prophetess in Luke and others where daughters will prophesy. According to Paul the offices of ministry place prophets above those of the pastor.

And, btw, I'm not a newbie. I was posting here when this forum was started, but I've abandoned the email account that was attached to my former nic. It's been many years-maybe 10-since I've last posted. Glad to be back.

 

[Selene]

Im

I'm just asking.. by your statement so a single woman can serve as a pastor? What about women in ministry positions such as an evangelist, missionary, prophetess, associate minister, co-pastors with their husbands or assistant pastors to men? I truly want to know your take and position on this.

By my statement, a single woman cannot serve as a pastor. The head of the single woman is Christ, and Christ is already a priest. Married or single women, on the other hand, can become ministers of the word or ministers of the Eucharist. I am a minister of the word, but not a priest or pastor. A minister is someone who assists the priest. I cannot be a priest because I am a female.

The Hebrew or Aramaic word for minister is pelach (which means servant). The Hebrew and Aramaic word for priest is kahen. There is a difference between a minister and priest in the Aramaic language......the language of Jesus. In the Greek language, on the other hand, the same word can be used interchangeably. For example, "ministers" and "deacons" are used interchangeably. Bishops and priests are also used interchangeably. The people, their culture, and the language they speak should always be taken into consideration, and God's chosen people were not Greeks. Therefore, the people in focus were a people who viewed "ministers" and the office of the "priesthood" differently. The Jews have only men as their rabbis even until today because it was taught to them since biblical times that only men are called to the office of the priesthood by God. It is only today in the 21st century where women are being ordained into the priesthood, which is against what the Holy Bible teaches. Not all Christians practice women's ordination, but a few Christian denominations are now practicing it.

 

[marksman]

Now, let's take a look at Satan. Who did he speak to in the Garden of Eden? Did he speak to Adam? No. He went to Eve and spoke to her. Why didn't Satan go to Adam? He was, after all, the head of the house. Satan knew what he was doing. Satan caused mankind to fall by going through the woman who was never the head of the house.

One you have ignored virtually everything I said.

Two, Your little homily about satan in the garden to justify your claims is complete and utter rubbish and that is about as nice as I can put it, so forgive for my bluntness.

This little homily makes it very clear that you will drag up any scenario and put your spin on it to justify your unbiblical interpretations.

I say yes. In scripture we read about a prophetess in Luke and others where daughters will prophesy. According to Paul the offices of ministry place prophets above those of the pastor.

A very good point Servant as it illustrates how far the church of most persuasions are up the creek without a paddle because they INSIST that single priest/pastor is the only ministry recognized by God and because of that fact, they are totally up the creek as to how ministry should operate.

One thing that has been forgotten in all this is that God tore the veil in the temple at the time of Jesus resurrection which opened the door to the holy of holies to EVERYONE, not just the priest so in that respect, the priest is irrelevant.

Except that the church makes him the kingpin contrary to the revelation of scripture.

 

[Selene]

One you have ignored virtually everything I said.

The only thing you say is:

1. Christ being the good shepherd has nothing to do with women being pastors.........and you ignore the biblical fact that Christ is the one we should follow.

2. Christ being head of the Church has nothing at all to do with women being pastors.......and you ignore the biblical fact that men represents Christ as head of the household. And this is what I addressed. Women cannot be pastors because they are not head of anything.

3. Christ being the high priest has nothing to do with women being pastors.......and you ignore the biblical fact that only men were called to be priests in both the old and new testaments. And this is what I addressed. God called only the sons of Aaron and Levi to be priests. He never called their daughters. Christ chose only men to be Apostles. He did not choose any woman.

4. Christ being a man has nothing to do with women being pastors.......and you ignore the biblical fact that men have authority, which women are not supposed to take from (See 1 Timothy 2:12).

Two, Your little homily about satan in the garden to justify your claims is complete and utter rubbish and that is about as nice as I can put it, so forgive for my bluntness.

This little homily makes it very clear that you will drag up any scenario and put your spin on it to justify your unbiblical interpretations.

And how is it "unbiblical" when it was taken from the Bible. It is true that the Angel Gabriel only spoke to Mary when she was single. After she married Joseph, the angel never spoke to her again. He only spoke to Joseph, who was the head of the house. It is in the Bible that the Angel Gabriel spoke to Elizabeth's husband Zacariah, who was the head of the house. It is also true that throughout the Bible, God and the angels spoke only to the Head of the house, and the only time they spoke to a married woman is AFTER speaking to the husband first.

It is also in the bible that Satan never went to the head of the house (Adam). He went straight to Eve and spoke to her. Satan didn't even have the decency to speak to Adam first. By not going to Adam, he degraded and defied Adam's title as head of the house just as Satan defied God as the ruler, king, and Lord of all creation.

 

[IanLC]

By my statement, a single woman cannot serve as a pastor. The head of the single woman is Christ, and Christ is already a priest. Married or single women, on the other hand, can become ministers of the word or ministers of the Eucharist. I am a minister of the word, but not a priest or pastor. A minister is someone who assists the priest. I cannot be a priest because I am a female.

The Hebrew or Aramaic word for minister is pelach (which means servant). The Hebrew and Aramaic word for priest is kahen. There is a difference between a minister and priest in the Aramaic language......the language of Jesus. In the Greek language, on the other hand, the same word can be used interchangeably. For example, "ministers" and "deacons" are used interchangeably. Bishops and priests are also used interchangeably. The people, their culture, and the language they speak should always be taken into consideration, and God's chosen people were not Greeks. Therefore, the people in focus were a people who viewed "ministers" and the office of the "priesthood" differently. The Jews have only men as their rabbis even until today because it was taught to them since biblical times that only men are called to the office of the priesthood by God. It is only today in the 21st century where women are being ordained into the priesthood, which is against what the Holy Bible teaches. Not all Christians practice women's ordination, but a few Christian denominations are now practicing it.

I see. The only thing I would say that is not factual is your last statement that the ordination of women is a 21st Century thing. Women in several Methodist, Independent Baptist, Holiness and Pentecostal churches served as pastors and ordained clergy in the 19th and 20th Centuries. I believe God call whom He calls and wherever He places them that is where He wants them. Are all women called to pastor? No of course not! Are all men called to pastor/priesthood? No not at all. The most important thing is that God confirms His Word and honors His Word more than the vessel by which the Word is brought through! Whether male or female, laity or clergy the message of the gospel is the most important aspect of Christian life and ministry! If a woman is serving as a pastor let her preach the unadulterated gospel of Jesus Christ and live that holy gospel and if a man is a pastor let him do the same! Jesus is the centerpiece of it ALL!
Blessings!!

 

[servant]

....as it illustrates how far the church of most persuasions are up the creek without a paddle because they INSIST that single priest/pastor is the only ministry recognized by God and because of that fact, they are totally up the creek as to how ministry should operate.

It seems apparent in our day the office of pastor has superseded the other offices that are just as, if not more, viable for sound ministry. Granted that the office of apostle is guaranteed by sound doctrine that those who inherit this qualification are only those who were witness to the Lord in his time on earth I will concede this point. There are others who would contest it, but that is not the focus of my followup to you.

I have maintained throughout my pilgrimage that the offices are granted by those that preceded the ones chosen to follow after. The problem today is the hierarchy for such promotions has been lost in time. That leaves a rather peculiar predicament. One aspect of this lost chronological hierarchy is the belief and/or doctrine of some that when one ministry fails in maintaining the straight and narrow, God raises another to fill that void.

I am in that camping ground. When a ministry misses the mark God raises another. We have seen this time and again, and that is the reason there are sooo... many denominations. It was a problem even in the time of the apostles. Paul referred to it in his letter to the church of Corinth when he chastised them for secting towards Apollos and or himself or others. Paul stated it right when he suggested this kind of inclination was worldly. It smacks political, and we all know the discipline of politics is in the charge of the fallen one, at least where the world is concerned with maintaining the status quo of god denying, or at least godlessness incorporation.


For today, as you have mentioned, the office of pastor has taken an authority that has reduced the others to a more minor role. Your allusion to, and quantitatively correct interpretation of, the renting of the veil cannot be ignored. It is what it is and your interpretation, IMHO, is correct.

So this is where we stand. On the grounds that the One and Only, the Eternal can do as he wishes. But that is not all. He set the ground rules well before we were ever incorporated into the scheme (although he had us in mind when he thrust his power into a void and spoke all into being). There would be no difference between us. He can give a word of knowledge to an appointing minister to grant an office to the most qualified candidate, but that doesn't happen much where a woman is concerned.

After we leave this temporal shell we are one and the same. Connected yet individual spirit made in the image of God.

Heaven or what I call entering the mind of God is going to be awesome beyond our wildest imaginings. I await it with all the life my mortal body has left to give.

 

[Asyncritus]

Can someone, on either side of this debate (and I really don't see why there should be a debate on the subject) please explain what Paul meant by:

1 Tim 2.10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

If we can establish what he meant, then there ought to be no problems.

Thx

 

[mjrhealth]

Paul was a jew, teh jews did not allow women to speak in the sinagog, from what i understand they sat at the back and took no part, even today. I am not a Jew, doesnt apply to me....

 

[Asyncritus]

Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles. Timothy was half Roman, and I don't know where Timothy was at the time Paul wrote, but it's reasonably likely that he was at one of the churches in the NT - which were all Gentile churches, apart from Corinth.