Feminism in the Church

[Prentis]

I kindly disagree. If there are not enough men stepping up then God uses whom He want's to use. Maybe I have a biased view since I have a female pastor and have been and fellowshiped with other churches that have and it seems their is no difference between the male and female leadership. But that is just my take if they are preaching and pastoring in Jesus name and souls are being saved and nurtured correclt then it's okay. And in the United Holy Church (UHCA) no woman just took power from a man they were given power by the man. Men and women submit to each other.

See, I do think that if NO man steps up, a woman may lead. But NO man steps up, it's impossible that you have a bunch of families meeting together. Unless you have like 3 moms who bring their kids, and their husbands don't care for church but allow the women to go and that's your church. I think the fact that men have given the woman power is kind of... funny, if you know what I mean.

Then again, I don't believe in having a building with pastors as ministers anyways... So I guess it's besides the point. :)

 

[aspen]

"So where science and Biblical miracles conflict you choose science." - Duckybill

-- Aspen, your response "You remind me of the Pope that imprisoned Galileo for the same charge."
does not address what is a legitimate question.

The Bible is replete with miracles that science states simply did not or could not have happened.

Science will tell you that Jonah could not possibly have lived inside the belly of a whale for three days.

Science will tell you there is no way that Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego could have survived the fire, let alone depart it unscathed.

Science will tell you there is no way that Moses parted the Red Sea, let alone made the ground firm enough to walk on.

Science will tell you there is no way the devil took Jesus to the mountaintop and showed him all the kingdoms of the world.

Science will tell you that there was no way that the sun was made to go backwards in the sky.

Science will tell you that there was no way Jesus fed over 5000 people with just five loaves and two fish.

Science will tell you that there is absolutely no way Jesus (or Peter) walked on water.

Science will tell you there is no way that Jesus was dead for three days and miraculously came back to life.

You have to ask yourself what you believe.

You apparently believe that the Bible is not all is is said to be.

As far as the Pope and Galileo, you will notice that the Pope took a position that was NOT supported by the Bible and that both that Pope and today's Pope Benedict believe the story of Noah is accurate.

The Bible is not a scientific text; it is a book of revelation. It is not asking the reader to believe that Jonah was really swallowed by a fish - it is asking us to empathize with Jonah and put ourselves in his shoes. It is also teaching us that God is always with us and to trust Him. I think you may be believing it is more than in is claiming to be.

I am not denying that physical miracles can help; I am simply more interested in the message of the gospel. Jesus used miracles in the same manner - they were a circus trick to garner attention, not the actual message.

Belief involves the mind, heart, and will - not just the mind.

 

[Duckybill]

"So where science and Biblical miracles conflict you choose science." - Duckybill

-- Aspen, your response "You remind me of the Pope that imprisoned Galileo for the same charge."
does not address what is a legitimate question.

The Bible is replete with miracles that science states simply did not or could not have happened.

Science will tell you that Jonah could not possibly have lived inside the belly of a whale for three days.

Science will tell you there is no way that Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego could have survived the fire, let alone depart it unscathed.

Science will tell you there is no way that Moses parted the Red Sea, let alone made the ground firm enough to walk on.

Science will tell you there is no way the devil took Jesus to the mountaintop and showed him all the kingdoms of the world.

Science will tell you that there was no way that the sun was made to go backwards in the sky.

Science will tell you that there was no way Jesus fed over 5000 people with just five loaves and two fish.

Science will tell you that there is absolutely no way Jesus (or Peter) walked on water.

Science will tell you there is no way that Jesus was dead for three days and miraculously came back to life.

You have to ask yourself what you believe.

You apparently believe that the Bible is not all is is said to be.

As far as the Pope and Galileo, you will notice that the Pope took a position that was NOT supported by the Bible and that both that Pope and today's Pope Benedict believe the story of Noah is accurate.

Great list! I love the miracles in the Bible. But they do seem to bother a lot of 'Christians' quite terribly though. The Bible is a Book of miracles from Genesis to Revelation.

2 Timothy 3:1-5 (NKJV)
1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!

God's Word is SOOOO accurate.

Jesus used miracles in the same manner - they were a circus trick to garner attention, not the actual message.

I've never heard anyone call Jesus' miracles a circus trick before. Interesting.

 

[Rach1370]

I kindly disagree. If there are not enough men stepping up then God uses whom He want's to use. Maybe I have a biased view since I have a female pastor and have been and fellowshiped with other churches that have and it seems their is no difference between the male and female leadership. But that is just my take if they are preaching and pastoring in Jesus name and souls are being saved and nurtured correclt then it's okay. And in the United Holy Church (UHCA) no woman just took power from a man they were given power by the man. Men and women submit to each other.

Well, I agree that God can use anyone to His purposes...he did call Deborah. So in rare occasions where a man just doesn't step up, maybe it would be okay.
But just take a step back from your church and how well it's working. Consider the world at large...the problems that rage between men and women. In the Church, in society, in married life. If we all took a step back from 'ultimate control and dominance' in situations and picked up the roles that God originally called us to...how much of a difference do you think that would make? We have to remember that the Bible is timeless. God knew then what would work best...both at the dawn of time, and in today's "modern" culture. Sin never changes, and the impulses that both men and women have...that is to rule, hasn't changed either.
And we all may nod our heads and say 'Mmm, yeah, women should start submitting and respecting the men in their lives, and men should step up and lead in a Christ like way'...but it really comes down to what we, ourselves, do within our own lives. It's hard to stand up for something that isn't evident within our own lives. So while I'm happy to give my opinion on the subject, at this time, I'm really not campaigning...I'm just striving to grow my marriage by really and truly being a 'helper' to my husband. And UN-surprisingly....it's working really well! Yup, God knows best.

 

[aspen]

Well, I agree that God can use anyone to His purposes...he did call Deborah. So in rare occasions where a man just doesn't step up, maybe it would be okay.
But just take a step back from your church and how well it's working. Consider the world at large...the problems that rage between men and women. In the Church, in society, in married life. If we all took a step back from 'ultimate control and dominance' in situations and picked up the roles that God originally called us to...how much of a difference do you think that would make? We have to remember that the Bible is timeless. God knew then what would work best...both at the dawn of time, and in today's "modern" culture. Sin never changes, and the impulses that both men and women have...that is to rule, hasn't changed either.
And we all may nod our heads and say 'Mmm, yeah, women should start submitting and respecting the men in their lives, and men should step up and lead in a Christ like way'...but it really comes down to what we, ourselves, do within our own lives. It's hard to stand up for something that isn't evident within our own lives. So while I'm happy to give my opinion on the subject, at this time, I'm really not campaigning...I'm just striving to grow my marriage by really and truly being a 'helper' to my husband. And UN-surprisingly....it's working really well! Yup, God knows best.

I don't know Rach,

Seems to me that the struggle for dominance cuts across gender roles. If we loved God and our neighbors as ourselves, we would not be trying to dominate men or women, Also, I still haven't seen anyone address my point about Paul simply describing love in two different ways rather than laying out separate roles.

 

[martinlawrencescott]

I also agree that a woman doesn't necessarily lose her godly covering when she is in a position of authority over man, as long as she has a covering of a male husband or leader, and if the position was vacuumed for lack of a Godly man. In Deborah's, case I believe Barak was her covering of authority that gave her God's permission to take his place to avoid usurpation in God's mission.

Women who are put in these positions usually work in mighty ways, but encounter greater attack against their ministries as a result (just an observation). The lack of order seems to require more work this way, whereas there is more peace and rest for everyone involved when men enter the positions they were called to. There is nothing wrong when Deborahs step up when Baraks step back, I just think there are way too many Baraks in modern day society.

Judges chapter 4-5

And I agree, Aspen, that Paul is indeed describing the same degree of love in two different ways. but he uses submission as the word for godly conduct for women towards men, and He then uses Agape love when it comes to the godly conduct for men towards women and relates it to Christ's sacrificial love. Yikes! For us to agape love on any level must require amazing grace... the pressure's on men. There is rest in God's order, and equality in God's love as revealed in Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[aspen]

Seems to me that roles were more defined in the past because men didn't allow themselves to be taught by women - it is different today.

 

[7angels]

i have stated my point before on women being pastors. according to the bible it is biblical but people get submission and authority mixed up. too many come up with how a women should be in marriage and turns that into religion. this is one of the ways that the church has gotten away from the best that God has for us. this authority and submission is referring to the married women and how they should serve their husbands but we put that label on all women. husbands are to be submissive too. do you know where the bible tells us that?

but that is not what i want t discuss here. what i want to say is that it is not worth insulting each other. this bickering just goes to show others like unbelievers that we are really no better than hey are so it makes them think why should i get saved when i can do the same thing a christian does and do not have to worry about following all their restrictions. we are to be an example of Christ to others but we act no better than a unsaved person. what matters is that we are saved. some of you think that you know a person's heart and so you judge them because of what they believe. it is supposed to be a forum where we discuss our beliefs and show people how to become closer to God. if a person will not listen then there is nothing you can do or say to convince them otherwise. just put the truth out there and pray to God to open their understanding and also pray that should the other person be right and you are wrong that God will show you the truth. it is idiotic to think that you know it all and everyone else is wrong. for example some think healing is not for today, others think financial prosperity is wrong or still others believe that not everything in the bible is true. so why are we cutting each other with criticism when we should be building each other up? we are here to learn and teach and not to be putting each other down. i was taught that if someone tells you something but cannot back it up with scripture than you have no right taking it as gospel. just because someone uses scripture to back up what they say does not mean they are interpreting it correctly. that is why we are here.

so please post scripture with your thoughts so we can all learn where to find the truth and also so we can learn what scripture is saying so everyone is on the same sheet of music or at least we know where the other person is coming from.

yours in Christ
7angels