First bishop at Rome, male or female

[BreadOfLife]

I'm glad you said that, "Paul was simply saying that a Bishop could not be from a home where this was practiced". ERROR, as U said, "first century, polygamy", correction, because of that polygamy the requirement was that a bishop was to be the husband of ONE WIFE, not two or three or more.... (smile). so your ERROR is corrected.

Huh??
What are you smoking??

I told YOU that because of the polygamous culture of the 1st century, Paul was saying that polygamists couldn't be Bishops.
He wasn't saying that a single man couldn't be a Bishop.

Your entire notion that a bishop MUST be married is based on your ignorance of Scripture and history.

now to address, 1 Timothy 2:12 "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence". here the word "woman" G1135 γυνή gune (ǰ ï-nee') is wife, not WOMAN. for if the apostle would have used the Greek word FEMALE: G2338 θήλυς thelus (thee'-lïs) adj. then case close, but he did't. so how do we know that it's wife and not applying to all woman in General, the answer is found in 1 Timothy 2:15 "Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety". the only "WOMAN" who suppose to be having children is a wife. so your explanation have been refuted. now case close on that.

My daughter is not married - nor is she pregnant - but chances are that she will get married and bear children some day. Paul is ALSO speaking about her.

Ummmmm, and what about the 17 other examples I gave you of the use of the same word for "Woman"??

 

[101G]

Paul never married. A bishop to be husband of one wife means he cannot remarry as a widow because he then becomes married to the Church. The "first wife", who died, is the "one wife".

well here comes a second opinion. I cannot accept that reasoning, because if she is dead then he can remarry. and two the Lord Jesus is already espouse to the Church.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I will counter that,
G2338 θήλυς thelus (thee'-lïs) adj.
female.
[from thele (the nipple)]
KJV: female, woman
Matt 19:4
Mark 10:6
Rom 1:26 & 27
Gal 3:28

so again your explanation hold no water.

And you have completely ignored the 17 verses I gave you that use the same word.
Why IS that??

 

[101G]

Huh??
What are you smoking??

I told YOU that because of the polygamous culture of the 1st century, Paul was saying that polygamists couldn't be Bishops.

ERROR, but did you not say that the apostle never say anyone have to be married, so your own words disqualify you.

My daughter is not married - nor is she pregnant - but chances are that she will get married and bear children some day. Paul is ALSO speaking about her.

well the woman in chapter 2 is married, because the apostle didn't use FEMALE: G2338 θήλυς thelus (thee'-lïs) as you say your DAUGHTER, LOL, ....... (smile) again you ERROR. and that case is closed. and my point still stand.

next question.

 

[101G]

And you have completely ignored the 17 verses I gave you that use the same word.
Why IS that??

it makes no difference to those verses, what about the verses in discussion. now bol, show in any of the verse discuss, 1 Timothy 2:12 "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence". or 1 Timothy 3:2 "A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach".

in 1 Timothy 2:12 a woman there is "WIFE" and do not apply to all woman, as well as in 1 Corinthians 14:34. and in 1 Timothy 3:2 "Wife" is wife. and the sealing point is HUSBAND

so my point still stand, and your ERRORS are corrected.

Next question.

 

[BreadOfLife]

ERROR, but did you not say that the apostle never say anyone have to be married, so your own words disqualify you.

HUH?? What "error"??
Paul never says that a Bishop MUST be married.

That's precisely what I said.

well the woman in chapter 2 is married, because the apostle didn't use FEMALE: G2338 θήλυς thelus (thee'-lïs) as you say your DAUGHTER, LOL, ....... (smile) again you ERROR. and that case is closed. and my point still stand.

next question.

You don't read very well - do you?

The word used in these verses is defined as: 1) a woman of any age, whether a virgin, or married, or a widow
What part of this general word for "Woman" are you having difficulty with??

 

[101G]

People listen up, I suggest you all take a closer look at Romans chapter 16. and have another Look at the bishop/pastor/overseer.

 

[BreadOfLife]

it makes no difference to those verses, what about the verses in discussion. now bol, show in any of the verse discuss, 1 Timothy 2:12 "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence". or 1 Timothy 3:2 "A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach".

in 1 Timothy 2:12 a woman there is "WIFE" and do not apply to all woman, as well as in 1 Corinthians 14:34. and in 1 Timothy 3:2 "Wife" is wife. and the sealing point is HUSBAND

so my point still stand, and your ERRORS are corrected.

Next question.

WHAT are you talking about?? Your entire argument is that women can be Bishops, according to Scripture.
Now you're comparing the word for "Woman" in 2 verses from 2 completely different chapters with a completely different context.

This is like arguing with a child who doesn't understand.
How old are you anyway??

 

[101G]

HUH?? What "error"??
Paul never says that a Bishop MUST be married.

That's precisely what I said.

You don't read very well - do you?

The word used in these verses is defined as: 1) a woman of any age, whether a virgin, or married, or a widow
What part of this general word for "Woman" are you having difficulty with??

YES, this woman have a HUSBAND, and G2338 θήλυς thelus (thee'-lïs) DON'T
- Original: θῆλυς
- Transliteration: Thelus
- Phonetic: thay'-loos
- Definition:
1. of the female sex
2. a woman, a female
- Origin: from the same as G2337
- TDNT entry: None
- Part(s) of speech: Adjective

so again you're refuted, and my point still stand

 

[BreadOfLife]

People listen up, I suggest you all take a closer look at Romans chapter 16. and have another Look at the bishop/pastor/overseer.

And I suggest YOU start conversing like an adult . . .

 

[101G]

And I suggest YOU start conversing like an adult . . .

so I take that as you cannot refute what i have said so far?..... (smile).

and as for adult, Hebrews 5:12 "For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil".

 

[101G]

WHAT are you talking about?? Your entire argument is that women can be Bishops, according to Scripture.
Now you're comparing the word for "Woman" in 2 verses from 2 completely different chapters with a completely different context.

This is like arguing with a child who doesn't understand.
How old are you anyway??

Old enough.... (smile).

 

[BreadOfLife]

YES, this woman have a HUSBAND, and G2338 θήλυς thelus (thee'-lïs) DON'T
- Original: θῆλυς
- Transliteration: Thelus
- Phonetic: thay'-loos
- Definition:
1. of the female sex
2. a woman, a female
- Origin: from the same as G2337
- TDNT entry: None
- Part(s) of speech: Adjective

so again you're refuted, and my point still stand

Apparently you don't know ANYTHING about different languages because you can't seem to grasp the fact that there can be several words for the same object. Just as "Adelphos" means "brother", it can ALSO mean step-brother, half-brother, cousin, uncle, neighbor, fellow believer, fellow countryman, etc.

In the same way - there are different words used for "female" - and the one YOU'VE latched onto can mean a virgin OR a married woman.
Do your homework . . .

 

[epostle1]

First thanks for your response. I strongly disagree.
#1. U said, "I mix-match words to make them say what you want them to say". I didn't write these dictionaries, and two show me where I made them fit to my opinion.
#2. our Sister Phebe was ordained, see my post #6
#3. U said, "but there is not a shred of explicit scriptural evidence that Pheobe was ordained, and not a single Early Church Father made any mention of it". well I have the original Early church father who wrote the Letter, the apostle Paul. it's right there in your bible, you got it too. the whole book, or letter to the saints Roman. see, we got the original.... (smile).

well you got 1/2 of it right, MINISTER. then U said, "However, the role of a deacon in the early church should not be understood as an ordained role similar to the diaconate role we have in the church today". you are right about that, it's definitely not what we have in the church today.

was these only who received the Holy Spirit? NO, Acts 2:39 "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call". is God still calling today..... yes, is it only males?.

1 Peter 2:9 "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light". let's see if you're in the light or the dark. 2 Corinthians 5:16 & 17 "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new". why? Galatians 3:27-29 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise".

I must strongly disagree with this, 1 Corinthians 12:28 "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues". question, did the church STOP because the first apostle died out? NO then your statement don't hold water.

ERROR on your part. women ruled over weak men who succumb to their Idol gods. there was nothing wrong with women in general only wicked one who lead weak-kneed men away from God.

true, but the Gospel writers also wrote about woman who was in leadership positions or roles. and they preached, and taught the Gospel. so that's nothing new.

Paul founded the church in Rome by long distance, which he did no get to until the near end of his life. and that long distance founding was by the letter he sent unto Rome by this newly elected Bishop Phebe.

Look kepha31, let's not argue tit for tat, ok, we have enough of this all ready, but let's discuss. I ask you to refute anything I have said by scripture. not by yours or anyone else opinion, but by the word of God. that I'll respond to.

be bless, and thanks for your post.

"...neither male nor female..." has NOTHING to do with ordination. Show me your scripture where any woman was ordained as deacon, priest, or bishop. You haven't done that. Large red fonts doesn't prove anything. Women were not ordained. You have no scripture because none exits. There are lost of verses where you find "woman" or "female", or "helpers" or "adjutor. " or "assistants" or any words of your choosing. NONE OF THEM MEAN ANY WOMAN WAS EVER ORDAINED. Pheobe had an important role to assist at baptism, BUT SHE WAS NEVER ORDAINED. There were prophetesses, BUT THEY WERE NEVER ORDAINED. Jesus' very own mother was NEVER ORDAINED.
Please don't cherry pick words with no context. If you can't find any scripture, and I am sure can't, that any woman in the NT and beyond was ordained, you should drop the discussion.

 

[101G]

Now that we have all the vain babbling out of the way, let's get to the heart of the Matter.

#1. Women can be bishops/pastors/overseers.
#2. if the scripture in 1 Timothy 3:2 would have been applied to any woman she would have been the wife of one husband.
#3. and there is no restriction, in Christ Jesus being Male nor female, because, Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus". that, if one was in Christ would have shut their ignorant mouth before they exposed themselves as babies of the scriptures.

 

[101G]

OK, show me your scripture where any woman was ordained as deacon, priest, or bishop. You haven't done that. Large red fonts doesn't prove anything. Women were not ordained. You have no scripture because none exits. There are lost of verses where you find "woman" or "female", or "helpers" or "adjutor. " or "assistants" or any words of your choosing. NONE OF THEM MEAN ANY WOMAN WAS EVER ORDAINED. Pheobe had an important role to assist at baptism, BUT SHE WAS NEVER ORDAINED. There were prophetesses, BUT THEY WERE NEVER ORDAINED. Jesus' very own mother was NEVER ORDAINED.
Please don't cherry pick words with no context. If you can't find any scripture, and I am sure can't, that any woman in the NT and beyond was ordained, you should drop the discussion.

I'm going to make it easy for you. listen, 1 Corinthians 12:28 "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues". see that word "SET" in the verse, it means,
G5087 τίθημι tithemi (tiy'-thee-miy) v.
θέω theo (the'-ō) [an alternate in certain tenses]
1. to place.
2. (properly) to lay in a passive or horizontal posture.
{in the widest application, literally and figuratively; differs from G2476, which properly denotes an upright and active position, while G2749 is properly reflexive and utterly prostrate}
[a prolonged form of a primary theo theh'-o (which is used only as alternate in certain tenses)]
KJV: + advise, appoint, bow, commit, conceive, give, X kneel down, lay (aside, down, up), make, ordain, purpose, put, set (forth), settle, sink down

Now if he set/appoint/ordain these in the church, question was there any female prophets, or prophetess. that should answer your question.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Now that we have all the vain babbling out of the way, let's get to the heart of the Matter.

#1. Women can be bishops/pastors/overseers.
#2. if the scripture in 1 Timothy 3:2 would have been applied to any woman she would have been the wife of one husband.
#3. and there is no restriction, in Christ Jesus being Male nor female, because, Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus". that, if one was in Christ would have shut their ignorant mouth before they exposed themselves as babies of the scriptures.

The YOU still have to explain why Paul says that women cannot be teachers or have authority over men.

He is NOT only talking about wives here because the word used means:
1) a woman of any age, whether a virgin, or married, or a widow

 

[101G]

The YOU still have to explain why Paul says that women cannot be teachers or have authority over men.

He is NOT only talking about wives here because the word used means:
1) a woman of any age, whether a virgin, or married, or a widow

ERROR again on your part. have you not hear, do you not understand? listen, 1 Timothy 2:12 "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence". here, it's the term "WIFE"
G1135 γυνή gune (ǰ ï-nee') n.
1. a woman.
2. (specially) a wife.
[probably from the base of G1096]
KJV: wife, woman
How do we know it's speaking of wives? answer, verse 15, 1 Timothy 2:15 "Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety". the only woman who bear children, or may I say it this way, SUPPOSE to be bearing children is a MARRIED one.

do that answer your question?....... (smile)

so my point still stand. Women can be a bishop/pastor/overseer.

 

[BreadOfLife]

ERROR again on your part. have you not hear, do you not understand? listen, 1 Timothy 2:12 "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence". here, it's the term "WIFE"
G1135 γυνή gune (ǰ ï-nee') n.
1. a woman.
2. (specially) a wife.
[probably from the base of G1096]
KJV: wife, woman
How do we know it's speaking of wives? answer, verse 15, 1 Timothy 2:15 "Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety". the only woman who bear children, or may I say it this way, SUPPOSE to be bearing children is a MARRIED one.

do that answer your question?....... (smile)

so my point still stand. Women can be a bishop/pastor/overseer.

WRONG.
Nowhere does it even imply that the woman must be married. γυνή gune (ǰ ï-nee') n DOESN'T mean "married". It simply means "Woman."
The fact that she WILL have children doesn't mean that she can't be presently single.

You are adding your own meaning to the text. This is what is known as the error of "eisegesis" of Scripture.
This is a common mistake among beginning Bible students.

 

[101G]

Nowhere does it even imply that the woman must be married. γυνή gune (ǰ ï-nee') n DOESN'T mean "married". It simply means "Woman."

well then what she doing shacking up with a man. because, 1 Timothy 2:13 "For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression". let's see was Adam and Eve married, or just shacking up. Hmmm....
excuses, excuses, excuses.

You are adding your own meaning to the text. This is what is known as the error of "eisegesis" of Scripture.

again can you not read?, do you not understand? understand bol, a husband teach his wife at HOME first, before she acts ignorant, and out of ORDER as in 1 Corinthians 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law". see, bol. how do we know that this is speaking of wives? the very next verse tells us. 1 Corinthians 14:35 "And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church". see, bol G1135 γυνή gune (ǰ ï-nee') n.was used in that vers also as used in 1 Timothy 2:12 "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence". that's how you get continuity of the scriptures.

so again you're refuted, and corrected.

 

[101G]

I hope you understand the difference now between G2338 θήλυς thelus (thee'-lïs) and G1135 γυνή gune (ǰ ï-nee') n. just get the context right and your exegesis will be correct.


let's review, the woman wife thing was cleared up. the husband of, of, of, one wife was cleared up. the usurp authority over the man, was cleared up. the ordaining of women was cleared up.

so is there any more objections?. because there are many women preacher, teachers and Bishops in the bible.

let's put a couple out there for you. Philippians 4:2 "I beseech Euodias, and beseech Syntyche, that they be of the same mind in the Lord. And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.