at the beginning of the book of Revelation john hears a trumpet speaking with him saying come up hither.the last trump.the rapture.at the beginning of the seven year long tribulation.
First the Rapture and then the Great Tribulations
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Those who don't belong to God can't understand the Bible but they can understand doctrine. I'm becoming more and more convinced that many people are simply unable to see the fact that the "proof verses" for a pretribulation rapture don't say what they're claiming they say because they can't understand what's written. If they could understand, they would, because the Bible is extremely clear on this subject.
In other words, some people cling to doctrine because it's all they have.
WhiteKnuckle
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And, then, John goes up there and sees the wonders God shows him.
Next.
This is the prime example right here. You're reasoning that because God's people aren't appointed wrath, that we wont be here. Why do you suppose that is? Where is the scriptural proof?
There is no such thing as scriptural proof. A closed mind and an unbelieving heart can and will disbelieve anything they choose. Scriptural proof is found in the still, small voice of the heart of those to whom it is revealed.
Not quite sure I want to jump into this fray . . . but . . . oh well . . .
I think the catching up in I Thess. 4 will be at the beginning of the seventieth week, not quite in the mainstream pre-trib way, but pre-trib nonetheless.
I will agree with many of you that a good number of "pre-trib proof texts" don't actually prove pre-trib rapture.
For instance, yes, we are not appointed to wrath, yes that is true, however, the wrath being spoken of there is, I believe, the wrath of final judgment. At the very least, it is debatable, and therefore does not prove pre-trib rapture.
However, I think that the events of the Revelation occur in order. I think this can be demonstrated from the timing terminology used in the Revelation. If this is in fact the case, then the 144,000 are sealed at the beginning of the seventieth week. And if that is so, this demands a pre-trib catching up. "The servants of God were sealed". There are 144,000 of them. They are Jews. Where is the Gentile church??? Read the next passage . . . (Keep in mind, John used "apo" and "ek" quite interchangeably.)
Now, one thing to make clear. If you begin to allegorize passages without an actual Scriptural foundation for allegorizing, then you can come up with just about whatever you want. But I think that the symbols used in Scripture are both specified by Scripture, and defined by Scripture.
I think that the Olivette Discourse is meant to be taken exactly as stated, that Jesus will return, and will sit upon His throne, and that certain items of business will be transacted. If that is true, then the gathering of the elect in Matt. 24:31 cannot include the gentiles, since the gentiles are gathered in Matt. 25:32. And therefore, neither of these can be the "we who remain" of I Thess 4, since "we who remain" is all-inclusive, while neither gathering in Matt. 24-25 is. Neither of these can be the catching up of I Thess. 4.
Now. If you want to debate this with me don't tell me I'm afraid of tribulation, or antichrist. Don't tell me I've just swallowed the party line. I've studied this for years on my own, although of course that doesn't mean I'm right.
Interact with what I'm saying, my assertions. I'm not intending to take this to a personal level.
If you want to know more about what I think, and how I've reached this ideas, I will be happy to share with you.
Simply stated, I think that the 7 seals are opened at the beginning of the seventieth week, that the catching up is occuring or has occurred as the cataclysmic 6th seal is opened. I think the earthquake of the 6th seal is the earthquake in Ezekiel 38, and the 1st trumpet is most likely the destruction of the Gog/Magog invaders.
Obviously, there is much more to be said, this will suffice for now.
Love in Christ,
Mark
I think the catching up in I Thess. 4 will be at the beginning of the seventieth week, not quite in the mainstream pre-trib way, but pre-trib nonetheless.
I will agree with many of you that a good number of "pre-trib proof texts" don't actually prove pre-trib rapture.
For instance, yes, we are not appointed to wrath, yes that is true, however, the wrath being spoken of there is, I believe, the wrath of final judgment. At the very least, it is debatable, and therefore does not prove pre-trib rapture.
However, I think that the events of the Revelation occur in order. I think this can be demonstrated from the timing terminology used in the Revelation. If this is in fact the case, then the 144,000 are sealed at the beginning of the seventieth week. And if that is so, this demands a pre-trib catching up. "The servants of God were sealed". There are 144,000 of them. They are Jews. Where is the Gentile church??? Read the next passage . . . (Keep in mind, John used "apo" and "ek" quite interchangeably.)
Now, one thing to make clear. If you begin to allegorize passages without an actual Scriptural foundation for allegorizing, then you can come up with just about whatever you want. But I think that the symbols used in Scripture are both specified by Scripture, and defined by Scripture.
I think that the Olivette Discourse is meant to be taken exactly as stated, that Jesus will return, and will sit upon His throne, and that certain items of business will be transacted. If that is true, then the gathering of the elect in Matt. 24:31 cannot include the gentiles, since the gentiles are gathered in Matt. 25:32. And therefore, neither of these can be the "we who remain" of I Thess 4, since "we who remain" is all-inclusive, while neither gathering in Matt. 24-25 is. Neither of these can be the catching up of I Thess. 4.
Now. If you want to debate this with me don't tell me I'm afraid of tribulation, or antichrist. Don't tell me I've just swallowed the party line. I've studied this for years on my own, although of course that doesn't mean I'm right.
Interact with what I'm saying, my assertions. I'm not intending to take this to a personal level.
If you want to know more about what I think, and how I've reached this ideas, I will be happy to share with you.
Simply stated, I think that the 7 seals are opened at the beginning of the seventieth week, that the catching up is occuring or has occurred as the cataclysmic 6th seal is opened. I think the earthquake of the 6th seal is the earthquake in Ezekiel 38, and the 1st trumpet is most likely the destruction of the Gog/Magog invaders.
Obviously, there is much more to be said, this will suffice for now.
Love in Christ,
Mark
It's called following men's traditions. The post-trib theology has traditions within it too that don't exactly align with God's Word either.
The birds-eye view though, is that this kind of confusion of following men's traditions upon many is ordained to occur. The OT prophets reveal it, even as our Lord Jesus and His Apostles did when speaking of spiritual blindness, not having eyes to see and ears to hear (see Isaiah 28-29; Ezekiel 13).
The biggest reason for confusion on the end time events is from not staying in God's Word as written, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, and there a little. In Isaiah 28 God noted how the religious leaders of His people thought coverage of His Word like that was childish; they mocked the idea. In the Hebrew their mocking words of 'line upon line, ...' sounds like a song. Yet God showed by not doing it they would be snared, fall backwards, and be taken (in deception). He linked it refusal of it with spiritual blindness.
Thus those who have been given 'eyes to see, and ears to hear' have the duty to try and get brethren to stay in focus in God's Word, and beware of the leaven doctrines of men that God allows to exist as a test. The whole reason men's traditions exsit is about God testing us, to see who we will listen to.
Getting to that point, and then doing real Bible study the way God said (line upon line), then men's traditions become revealed for what they are, and then the order and type of events to occur for the end start becoming clear.
Now. If you want to debate this with me don't tell me I'm afraid of tribulation, or antichrist. Don't tell me I've just swallowed the party line. I've studied this for years on my own, although of course that doesn't mean I'm right.
Interact with what I'm saying, my assertions. I'm not intending to take this to a personal level.
If you want to know more about what I think, and how I've reached this ideas, I will be happy to share with you.
Simply stated, I think that the 7 seals are opened at the beginning of the seventieth week, that the catching up is occuring or has occurred as the cataclysmic 6th seal is opened. I think the earthquake of the 6th seal is the earthquake in Ezekiel 38, and the 1st trumpet is most likely the destruction of the Gog/Magog invaders.
Obviously, there is much more to be said, this will suffice for now.
Love in Christ,
Mark
Mark,
I would like to discuss this with you and hear what you believe and have studied.
I would like to start by stating that the letters that Paul wrote or the vision of John in The Book of Revelation are to be understood "through" the Words of Jesus Christ in the Four Gospels.
To put it another way, The Words of Jesus Christ are the foundation of Truth that the Letters of Paul or the Book of Revelation is to be built upon, not the other way around.
The rest of the New Testament confirms or expounds upon what The Lord Jesus taught.
If we can agree on this, then there a foundation for which we can discuss this hotly debated topic.
I do not see any reason to try and discuss The book of Revelation that is difficult to understand if we first can not agree on the clear, plain words of Jesus Christ.
Here is the way Jesus said it;
If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:12
If we can not agree on the clear easy to understand things, why try to discuss complicated ones.
With that said I await your response and look forward to a fruitful discussion with you brother Mark.
The Lord Bless you and keep you, JLB
PS - One question for you to think about:
In Matthew 24 was Jesus speaking to Jews or to Christians?
Interact with what I'm saying, my assertions. I'm not intending to take this to a personal level.
If you want to know more about what I think, and how I've reached this ideas, I will be happy to share with you.
Simply stated, I think that the 7 seals are opened at the beginning of the seventieth week, that the catching up is occuring or has occurred as the cataclysmic 6th seal is opened. I think the earthquake of the 6th seal is the earthquake in Ezekiel 38, and the 1st trumpet is most likely the destruction of the Gog/Magog invaders.
Obviously, there is much more to be said, this will suffice for now.
Love in Christ,
Mark
Mark,
I would like to discuss this with you and hear what you believe and have studied.
I would like to start by stating that the letters that Paul wrote or the vision of John in The Book of Revelation are to be understood "through" the Words of Jesus Christ in the Four Gospels.
To put it another way, The Words of Jesus Christ are the foundation of Truth that the Letters of Paul or the Book of Revelation is to be built upon, not the other way around.
The rest of the New Testament confirms or expounds upon what The Lord Jesus taught.
If we can agree on this, then there a foundation for which we can discuss this hotly debated topic.
I do not see any reason to try and discuss The book of Revelation that is difficult to understand if we first can not agree on the clear, plain words of Jesus Christ.
Here is the way Jesus said it;
If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:12
If we can not agree on the clear easy to understand things, why try to discuss complicated ones.
With that said I await your response and look forward to a fruitful discussion with you brother Mark.
The Lord Bless you and keep you, JLB
PS - One question for you to think about:
In Matthew 24 was Jesus speaking to Jews or to Christians?
Hi JLB,
I take all of Scripture together, the more more specific elucidating the less specific. Sometimes, I think that occurs in the order you suggest, however, sometimes I think the words of the Apostles give a clearer teaching that that of Jesus. I think we need to look at it all together.
Personally, I think that this is not the correct application of the quote you bring:
If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:12
For instance, Jesus told the Jews they would be expelled from Jerusalem, the city destroyed, but it was Paul who explained the full dynamic between the Jews and the Gentiles.
Jesus talked about His return, and said they would not see Him again until they said, blessed is He Who comes in the Name of the Lord, but it was Peter who really expained just what was required of Israel.
I don't see this as Jesus' instruction that we are to use the Gospels as the "Key" to the letters, and the Revelation. There is much that we're told that gives more information to what Jesus taught. I see no reason to not look at the entire teaching of the Bible, each part adding it's part, each as important as the rest.
But even so, I don't know that this means we cannot discuss these things. But if you do not wish to, I understand.
To tell the truth, I find much of the Revelation to be fairly clear revelation, not so difficult. To be sure, there are parts that are difficult, but I think that when you interpret correctly, it becomes fairly simple.
I have stated my overall view fairly plainly, perhaps you might do likewise?
Do you have any reponse to the points I've brought up?
You ask, was Jesus speaking to Jews or Christians in the Olivette Discourse? I would answer that there were no Christians at the time He spoke those words. He had not yet died, no one was yet reborn, the church did not yet exist in what we know today as the "body of Christ".
But I think what you mean is, should we interpret the Olivette discourse as applying to Israel, or the Gentile/Jewish Church (of course, remembering, there is no Jew or Gentile in the body of Christ, we are a "new man"). Is that what you are asking?
Love in Christ,
Mark
I take all of Scripture together, the more more specific elucidating the less specific. Sometimes, I think that occurs in the order you suggest, however, sometimes I think the words of the Apostles give a clearer teaching that that of Jesus. I think we need to look at it all together.
Personally, I think that this is not the correct application of the quote you bring:
If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:12
For instance, Jesus told the Jews they would be expelled from Jerusalem, the city destroyed, but it was Paul who explained the full dynamic between the Jews and the Gentiles.
Jesus talked about His return, and said they would not see Him again until they said, blessed is He Who comes in the Name of the Lord, but it was Peter who really expained just what was required of Israel.
I don't see this as Jesus' instruction that we are to use the Gospels as the "Key" to the letters, and the Revelation. There is much that we're told that gives more information to what Jesus taught. I see no reason to not look at the entire teaching of the Bible, each part adding it's part, each as important as the rest.
But even so, I don't know that this means we cannot discuss these things. But if you do not wish to, I understand.
To tell the truth, I find much of the Revelation to be fairly clear revelation, not so difficult. To be sure, there are parts that are difficult, but I think that when you interpret correctly, it becomes fairly simple.
I have stated my overall view fairly plainly, perhaps you might do likewise?
Do you have any reponse to the points I've brought up?
You ask, was Jesus speaking to Jews or Christians in the Olivette Discourse? I would answer that there were no Christians at the time He spoke those words. He had not yet died, no one was yet reborn, the church did not yet exist in what we know today as the "body of Christ".
But I think what you mean is, should we interpret the Olivette discourse as applying to Israel, or the Gentile/Jewish Church (of course, remembering, there is no Jew or Gentile in the body of Christ, we are a "new man"). Is that what you are asking?
Love in Christ,
Mark
the rapture takes place in the seventh biblical month.the month of the feast of trumpets-also known in ancient times as the day no one knows.also the month of the feast of tabernacles.Christ returns seven years later at the feast of tabernacles.in the book of Revelation the saints are seen in heaven holding branches in their hands for the return at the feast of tabernacles.you can't know the day and the hour but you can know the month and the year.
Hi Mark,
You wrote -
Personally, I think that this is not the correct application of the quote you bring:
If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:12
For instance, Jesus told the Jews they would be expelled from Jerusalem, the city destroyed, but it was Paul who explained the full dynamic between the Jews and the Gentiles.
I will clarify the application of the above mentioned scripture - Paraphrased
If I have told you of simple things that you are familiar with and you don't understand what i am talking about, then there is no need for me to speak to you about things that are more complicated and unfamilar to you. John 3:12 Paraphrased
Mark this is the context in which I quoted the above mentioned scripture.
I don't see where your reference to The City of Jerusalem being destroyed, has to do with what I am trying to clarify.
For instance, Jesus told the Jews they would be expelled from Jerusalem, the city destroyed, but it was Paul who explained the full dynamic between the Jews and the Gentiles.
Mark, I want us to stay focused on the topic that we chose to discuss and use scripture to answer scripture, if we can do that, I believe our discussion will be the most fruitful.
With that said, I will open up with these scriptures. Remember what scripture says, "Out of the mouth of 2 or 3 witness's, let every word be established"
Here are three scriptures that refer to the ressurection, at The Coming of The Lord Jesus -
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
In your opinion, are these scriptures that refer to the resurrection at The Coming of The Lord, the same event or are these different events.
Thanks, JLB
You wrote -
Personally, I think that this is not the correct application of the quote you bring:
If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:12
For instance, Jesus told the Jews they would be expelled from Jerusalem, the city destroyed, but it was Paul who explained the full dynamic between the Jews and the Gentiles.
I will clarify the application of the above mentioned scripture - Paraphrased
If I have told you of simple things that you are familiar with and you don't understand what i am talking about, then there is no need for me to speak to you about things that are more complicated and unfamilar to you. John 3:12 Paraphrased
Mark this is the context in which I quoted the above mentioned scripture.
I don't see where your reference to The City of Jerusalem being destroyed, has to do with what I am trying to clarify.
For instance, Jesus told the Jews they would be expelled from Jerusalem, the city destroyed, but it was Paul who explained the full dynamic between the Jews and the Gentiles.
Mark, I want us to stay focused on the topic that we chose to discuss and use scripture to answer scripture, if we can do that, I believe our discussion will be the most fruitful.
With that said, I will open up with these scriptures. Remember what scripture says, "Out of the mouth of 2 or 3 witness's, let every word be established"
Here are three scriptures that refer to the ressurection, at The Coming of The Lord Jesus -
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
In your opinion, are these scriptures that refer to the resurrection at The Coming of The Lord, the same event or are these different events.
Thanks, JLB
Hi JLB,
Do you not wish to share your view, so I can know where you are coming from?
Do you not wish to interact with my assertions?
Without wanting to get hung up on a distraction, I have to say that Jesus was talking to Nicodemus about earthly and heavenly things, and His statement was within that context, not a blanket rule of hermaneutics. Is it sufficient to say, we interpret Scripture with Scripture? It all must agree, in every single detail.
My answer to your question was contained in my post which you first responded to:
Based on this you can see that I approach Scripture in a very straightforward manner, and take what it says as just exactly what it means. (Of course, I'm not saying God has feathers.)
Another example of this is that I do not see a darkened moon being the same as a red moon. One emits light, the other does not. Blurring these sorts of distinctions produces difficult interpretations.
Love in Christ,
Mark
Do you not wish to share your view, so I can know where you are coming from?
Do you not wish to interact with my assertions?
Without wanting to get hung up on a distraction, I have to say that Jesus was talking to Nicodemus about earthly and heavenly things, and His statement was within that context, not a blanket rule of hermaneutics. Is it sufficient to say, we interpret Scripture with Scripture? It all must agree, in every single detail.
My answer to your question was contained in my post which you first responded to:
Based on this you can see that I approach Scripture in a very straightforward manner, and take what it says as just exactly what it means. (Of course, I'm not saying God has feathers.)
Another example of this is that I do not see a darkened moon being the same as a red moon. One emits light, the other does not. Blurring these sorts of distinctions produces difficult interpretations.
Love in Christ,
Mark
WhiteKnuckle
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Hmmmm, Well,
You're speaking with a believer, who is also open minded, and willing to examine all other aspects and ideas another believer has or thinks that the Bible says.
Now, This is where I get extremely frustrated with this subject. Most of the time I'm confronted with, "Well, the Word of God is hidden from unbelievers" or something similar. Making a claim, that because I can't see rapture in the Bible, that it's hidden from me, or that I'm not saved, because I can't see it.
The Gospel is hidden from unbelievers.
Admittedly, I don't understand everything written in Scripture. Everything in due time. However, I do know what the Bible says and does not say. That's understanding enough.
The biggest problem is people claiming the Bible says something, then making a claim that another can't see the invisible words because it's hidden from them. That's how the Tod Bently's and Benny Hinn's of the world get so many followers. That's how so many antichrist false teachers mislead.
If we didn't have the Word of God to compare to, then any of us at any time could claim something, and there's scale to measure it to. That's chaos, and God said he is a God of Order. The Bible clearly doesn't say anything about a rapture. What the Bible does give are singular examples of a one time event that occured to one person. Even though there are many different things that are similar that happened to many different people in the Bible, each case was unique , even though similar to a previous, and for a purpose of edifying future generations.
It's easy to read things into stories of past events and make them into something different than the original intent. Happens all the time.
John hearing a trumpet, then a loud shout, "Come up here!" was a purpose for John to have things shown to be revealed and written. God also comanded John to write what he saw. Does that mean we should also? Does that mean that if there is a rapture we need to write a story about it afterwords? See what I did there?
If the Bible gives a chronological order of events, and doesn't give even a hint of a secret and successive event, then it simply doesn't exist.
Mark, you wrote -
Quote
I think that the Olivette Discourse is meant to be taken exactly as stated, that Jesus will return, and will sit upon His throne, and that certain items of business will be transacted. If that is true, then the gathering of the elect in Matt. 24:31 cannot include the gentiles, since the gentiles are gathered in Matt. 25:32. And therefore, neither of these can be the "we who remain" of I Thess 4, since "we who remain" is all-inclusive, while neither gathering in Matt. 24-25 is. Neither of these can be the catching up of I Thess. 4.
So, based on what you stated above you dont believe the following scriptures pertaining to the resurrection that occurs at The Coming Lord Jesus are the same event?
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark, here are the key phrases of these scriptures -
- Forthe trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised
- the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
- And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Here what these scriptures reveal to me:
Mark, do you agree or disagree with this.
Thanks, JLB
Quote
I think that the Olivette Discourse is meant to be taken exactly as stated, that Jesus will return, and will sit upon His throne, and that certain items of business will be transacted. If that is true, then the gathering of the elect in Matt. 24:31 cannot include the gentiles, since the gentiles are gathered in Matt. 25:32. And therefore, neither of these can be the "we who remain" of I Thess 4, since "we who remain" is all-inclusive, while neither gathering in Matt. 24-25 is. Neither of these can be the catching up of I Thess. 4.
So, based on what you stated above you dont believe the following scriptures pertaining to the resurrection that occurs at The Coming Lord Jesus are the same event?
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Matthew 24:29-31
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark, here are the key phrases of these scriptures -
- Forthe trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised
- the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
- And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Here what these scriptures reveal to me:
- The resurrection of the dead in Christ will take place before the rapture.
- The resurrection of the dead in Christ will occur at The Coming of The Lord.
- The resurrection of the dead in Christ will take place at the last trumpet.
Mark, do you agree or disagree with this.
Thanks, JLB
Hi JLB,
Yes, there are trumpets . . .
However, do you have no comment to make on what I've said? There are exclusionary facts given in Scripture that prohibit the gathering in Matthew 24:31 from being the rapture.
So while there are similarities in what is said, and what will happen, they cannot be the same thing. You cannot gather all the saved, and then turn around and gather all the saved, that are comingled with the unsaved.
Matt. 24:31 is the gathering of Israel to return them to the land, so often prophesied, while Matt. 25:32 is the gathering of the gentiles, also prophesied, for judgment.
If we don't pay attention to the details, we will not come up with the right doctrines.
Come to think of it, would this be an example of basing our understanding of Paul's letters on the teachings of Jesus? I don't need anything more than the Olivette Discourse to arrive at this conclusion.
Hmmm.
Love in Christ,
Mark
Yes, there are trumpets . . .
However, do you have no comment to make on what I've said? There are exclusionary facts given in Scripture that prohibit the gathering in Matthew 24:31 from being the rapture.
So while there are similarities in what is said, and what will happen, they cannot be the same thing. You cannot gather all the saved, and then turn around and gather all the saved, that are comingled with the unsaved.
Matt. 24:31 is the gathering of Israel to return them to the land, so often prophesied, while Matt. 25:32 is the gathering of the gentiles, also prophesied, for judgment.
If we don't pay attention to the details, we will not come up with the right doctrines.
Come to think of it, would this be an example of basing our understanding of Paul's letters on the teachings of Jesus? I don't need anything more than the Olivette Discourse to arrive at this conclusion.
Hmmm.
Love in Christ,
Mark
Mark,
My discussion topic is the ressurection of the dead in Christ.
Could you please answer the question with an agree or disagree answer.
Thanks, JLB
Here is what these scriptures reveal to me:
Mark, do you agree or disagree with this.
Thanks, JLB
My discussion topic is the ressurection of the dead in Christ.
Could you please answer the question with an agree or disagree answer.
Thanks, JLB
Here is what these scriptures reveal to me:
- The resurrection of the dead in Christ will take place before the rapture.
- The resurrection of the dead in Christ will occur at The Coming of The Lord.
- The resurrection of the dead in Christ will take place at the last trumpet.
Mark, do you agree or disagree with this.
Thanks, JLB
Galatians 3:7-9
Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
Galatians 3:28-29
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
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