First the Rapture and then the Great Tribulations

[JLB]

Mark wrote -

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This does not say anything about a resurrection of the dead, or of the dead in Christ.


2 thessalonians 2:1-4

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Mark,

What does the above underlined phrase our gathering together to Him, mean to you.

 

[veteran]

It's also important to note that in Matt.24, Christ is giving specific endtime ordered events. They actually are the Seals of Revelation 6.

But in the Matt.25 chapter, He is giving parables about the Kingdom involving both those of His Church, and the rebellious. Matt.25 is not a prophetic order chapter like Matt.24. Since He was speaking of His Church with the ten virgin parable, and the parable of the talents, there's no valid reason to arbitrarily assign the 'sheep' there as anyone other than His Church of believers from both Israelites and Gentiles gathered as one body.


John 10:7-9
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before Me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by Me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
(KJV)

Thus trying to apply the "sheep" metaphor to only Israel is ludicrous.

 

[TWC]

Hi TWC,

Yes, Important to remember!

So, considering that there are two gatherings, one of the "Chosen", and one of the "Nations" (gentiles), and that the 'nations' is a mixed group of saved and unsaved, what do you suppose is the significance that "in Christ", there is neither Jew nor Gentile, but we are all taken back to Abraham?

These gatherings show a distinction based on nationalities, while those "in Christ" are not distinguished by nationalities. What do you make of that?

Love in Christ,
Mark

Ephesians 2:11-13
Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (that done in the body by the hands of men)— remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

Colossians 3:11-12
Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all. Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.

Your definition of the elect is what is causing there to be a distinction. If a doctrine requires there to be a distinction when the Bible clearly says that there is no distinction, then there's a problem with the doctrine.

 

[mark s]

Hi veteran,

JLB has expressed the desire to debate with me over the rapture of the church.

He began with wanting to establish an hermaneutic rule based on a passage in John. But then he did not want to discuss that. He asked me whether I agreed that his three passages all described the same event. I've said from the beginning that based on what is said in the Olivette Discourse, they cannot be the same event. What is not "straight" about that???

But then, it seems you also understand I'm giving a clear answer, since you've responded more directly to my assertions than JLB has.

As it turns out, it doesn't seem that he actually wants to discuss what I've posted on the rapture after all. Even after acknowledging my answer, he simply asks the same question over again, as if I have not answered.

Now you are asking me the same question, again, as if I have not answered. Yet this was in my very first post in this thread.

I'd like hear a straight answer to JLB's question to you. It's a valid question, and shouldn't move you from your current positoin to answer it. A simple "Yes, there are trumpets..." is not a valid answer to it.

OK, from the top . . . "Yes there are trumpets" was not my answer. This was my answer, immediately following:

There are exclusionary facts given in Scripture that prohibit the gathering in Matthew 24:31 from being the rapture.

So while there are similarities in what is said, and what will happen, they cannot be the same thing. You cannot gather all the saved, and then turn around and gather all the saved, that are comingled with the unsaved.

Why is this not being acknowledged? How are we to have a discussion?

What are "exclusionary facts"? Do you mean 'secrets' that we as believers on Christ Jesus cannot know, like a 'private' intepretation of God's Word?

When I say "exclusionary facts", I am referring to facts which prohibit the conclusions being presented. John leaves the room when George enters the room. If that is true, then you cannot conclude that George and John are in the room at the same time. The facts exclude it.

"Secrets" that we can't know? Then how would I know them? Frankly, this is beginning to sound a bit perjorative. But I'll assume you are simply asking the question.

There's not any idea in the Matt.24 chapter that prohibits such an idea. The Matt.24:29-31 Scripture involves all of Christ's Church at His coming, and it is the Greek 'harpazo' ("caught up") event which Apostle Paul taught.

I will refer to my previous assertion:

I think that the Olivette Discourse is meant to be taken exactly as stated, that Jesus will return, and will sit upon His throne, and that certain items of business will be transacted. If that is true, then the gathering of the elect in Matt. 24:31 cannot include the gentiles, since the gentiles are gathered in Matt. 25:32. And therefore, neither of these can be the "we who remain" of I Thess 4, since "we who remain" is all-inclusive, while neither gathering in Matt. 24-25 is. Neither of these can be the catching up of I Thess. 4.

Jesus appears and gathers the chosen.
Jesus sits upon His throne.
Jesus gathers the nations, and separated the righteous from the wicked.

In the Olivette discourse, there are two gatherings. Both groups contain saved. The second group also contains unsaved.

In Paul's harpazo, "we who are alive and remain" are caught away.

The first gathering is not "we who are alive and remain", because some remain afterward, to be gathered among the nations.

The second gathering is not the gathering of those "in Christ", it is a mixed group of both saved and unsaved.

We have further internal evidence also.

The nations are divided according to how they treated "Jesus' brothers". This can only be an outside group, otherwise, it becomes circular, that they be separated by comparing them to themselves. That is illogical.

We are given an outside group by whom they are separated, the "chosen", who were already gathered.

Therefore, this supports the otherwise logical conclusion that the first gathering, the chosen, is Israel, while the second gathering, the nations, are just that. This is further supported by passages in Ezekiel and Joel, among others.

Can't be the same event because of what, why? Because of a tradition of men that says it cannot be? Apostle Paul already covered the event of Christ gathering two groups of His saints into one group per 1 Thess.4. He specifically taught that the saints still alive on earth at Christ's coming will be "caught up" and joined with the "asleep" saints which Christ brings with Him. How can the unsaved prevent that from happenning? Is there anywhere... written in God's Word that declares the unsaved could prevent that gathering event? No; of course not. Sorry man; so far your argument doesn't hold a bit of water.

veteran, have I said anything whatsoever about traditions? Why does this enter the discussion? That is not a rhetorical question, though I do not really expect it to be truly answered. I think I know the answer.

Again, the fact that some of the righteous are gathered together as part of the nations means that not all the righteous were gathered in Matt. 24:31. Do you have an actual response that specific point? Perhaps you would like to argue that the Matt. 25:32 gathering is the great white throne judgment. Some people try to make that case. That would allow the 24:31 gathering to stand alone, eliminating my current objection. The problem with that view, however, is that the timing words put them together in the same event sequence. Jesus appears in the sky, He gathers the chosen, He sits upon His throne, and the nations are gathered and separated.

Ever heard of Hyper-Dispensationalism? It treats Israel as separate from Gentile believers, thinking that only Paul's Epistles are for the Church, the rest of Scripture (like Matt.24) being only for Israel. That kind of idea was never held by the early Church, and wasn't even an idea introduced by anyone in the Church until the 1800's, and it was linked with the Pre-trib secret rapture theory of that era.

Yes I have. Bullinger, I believe, is often held up as an example.

Of course, there are dispensational distinctions in Scripture. We know that they offered animal sacrifice in the OT times. Now we do not. Jesus was the perfect, once-for-all sacrifice.

But I'm not making a dispensational argument. I'm drawing conclusions solely from the exact wording of two passages within the Olivette Discourse, when compared to the exact wording of I Thess 4. And no one seems to want to direct discuss this. Deny it, yes, discuss it, no.

Now, the ticker is showing me new posts added as I've been writing this one. I am hoping for more of a discussion of my assertions.

veteran, so far you've associated me with obfuscation, "secret" knowledge, holding to traditions, and hyper-dispensationalism. Each of these can be easily seen as ad hominem arguments, arguing against the person, not the assertions. That is of course a logical fallacy, and further, I said at the beginning, I'm not interested in this becoming personal.

What you have not done is to address how it is that you can have a catching up of all Christians on the earth at that time, occuring in a single moment of time, that is also described as two separate gatherings with different descriptions, or, otherwise, where do the "sheep" come from in the sheep/goats judgment?

Now, whether this is to become "personal" or not, I think I'll know very quickly. I'm hoping we can simply discuss the views themselves.

Love in Christ,
Mark

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi JLB,

On to yet another passage . . .

I have answered your questions, you yet to respond to my assertions, which you said you wanted to discuss. It's getting a little lopsided here. But I think I understand.

But I'm going to ask that you respond to my post #101:

But before you ask yet again, I don't know how I can be more specific. The gathering in Matt. 24:31 CANNOT be the catching up in I Thess 4, because the catching up in I Thess 4 is all inclusive, while the gathering in Matt. 24:31 is only Jews, and we know this because the gentiles are gathered in Matt. 25:32, as a mixed group, saved and unsaved. So then, neither can be the all inclusive group of I Thess. 4. But alas, I repeat myself.

How is it that you have two different gathering containing saved people in the Olivette Discourse, both happening when Jesus comes, yet both different, while at the same time, I Thess 4 describes a single gathering of those "in Christ". You assert these are the same gathering. How do you account for the two gatherings in Matthew?

Let's address this point before we procede. After all, this was my original post that you said you wanted to debate. So let's debate it, OK?

----------------------------------------------------

hi veteran,

Since I'm not trying to apply the "sheep" to Israel", your accusation that I am being "ludicrous" is, I think, misplaced.

However, this is just the sort of perjorative I have no interest in.

"No, you're wrong, it's just ridiculous!" Just not the sort of discussion I'm here for.

Blessings!!

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[JLB]

Mark,

The simple Truth that scripture teaches is The Return of Jesus Christ is Glorius and Very Very Visible.

Matthew 24:29-31
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 1:7
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

This is a reference from the old testament –

Zechariah 12:10
10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.



Furthermore the word Coming [Parousia] means just that:

Strong’s Concordance
3952 // parousia // parousia // par-oo-see'-ah //
AV - coming 22, presence 2; 24
1) presence
2) the coming, arrival, advent
2a) the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise
the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and
gloriously the kingdom of God

Greek Lexicon

• Parousia

presence the coming, arrival, advent the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God

There is nothing secret or hidden about the word Coming.

The following verses associated with The Return of Jesus Christ all use this word Parousia. Anytime you see this word in scripture it is associated with Jesus' Visible Return.


2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Matthew 24:3
3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

1 Thessalonians 4:15,16
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the first fruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.


Jesus will return for His own, and every eye will see Him.
When Jesus returns for His own, The dead in Christ will rise first, then the rapture.
The antichrist will be made manifest BEFORE Jesus Returns.

WHEN JESUS CHRIST RETURNS, THEN COMES THE END! THE END OCCURS AFTER THE TRIBULATION, NOT BEFORE.


IF JESUS RETURNED BEFORE THE TRIBULATION AND EVERY EYE SAW HIM, WHO WOULD FOLLOW THE ANTICHRIST!


Mark wrote -

The gathering in Matt. 24:31 CANNOT be the catching up in I Thess 4, because the catching up in I Thess 4 is all inclusive, while the gathering in Matt. 24:31 is only Jews, and we know this because the gentiles are gathered in Matt. 25:32, as a mixed group, saved and unsaved. So then, neither can be the all inclusive group of I Thess. 4. But alas, I repeat myself.

Brother thats your Opinion! Give scripture that clearly backs up what you believe. Write the scripture out and show the verses that validate what you believe.

Thanks, JLB

Mark wrote -

The gathering in Matt. 24:31 CANNOT be the catching up in I Thess 4, because the catching up in I Thess 4 is all inclusive, while the gathering in Matt. 24:31 is only Jews, and we know this because the gentiles are gathered in Matt. 25:32, as a mixed group, saved and unsaved. So then, neither can be the all inclusive group of I Thess. 4. But alas, I repeat myself.

Brother thats your Opinion! Give scripture that clearly backs up what you believe. Write the scripture out and show the verses that validate what you believe.

Thanks, JLB

 

[mark s]

And for all of that, it does not address what I've asserted, with a very simple presentation.

Though you continue to not address my points, yet I will again do as you ask.

Perhaps we can get somewhere if I break it down better, as you are asking me to do. I will list all of my steps in reaching this conclusion. Perhaps you can tell me which you agree with, and which you disagree with, so we can find where our viewpoints separate from each other.

Matthew 24:30-31 LITV
(30) And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the land will wail. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory.
(31) And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens to their ends.

His elect - chosen - are all saved, do you agree? Yes or no?

Compare to . . .

Matthew 25:31-32 LITV
(31) But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
(32) And before Him shall be gathered all the nations; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

When the Son of Man comes - this is the same coming as in 24:30, do you agree? Yes or no?

After He comes, He will sit upon His throne. Agree?

When He sits upon His throne, the nations are gathered before Him. These are the gentiles. Agree? Or no?

Matthew 25:46 LITV
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.

Some of the gentiles gathered are condemned, while others are declared righteous. Agree? Or disagree?

OK. Compare to . . .

1 Thessalonians 4:17 LITV
(17) Then we who remain alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to a meeting with the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

These "we who remain alive" refers to all the living believers "in Christ" at the time this catching up occurs. Do you agree? Or disagree?

Again, if you can tell me which of these items you think is incorrect, we can look at that item in particular.

Love in Christ,
Mark

btw . . . we're all just giving our opinions, right? Are you saying that to state the obvious, or to diminish my viewpoint? The fact is, what I'm actually doing is calling your attention to the specific wording of certain passages. OK, you can call my conclusions my own opinion. So tell me your opinion on these particular passages, considering that these are what they say.

 

[JLB]

Perhaps we can get somewhere if I break it down better, as you are asking me to do. I will list all of my steps in reaching this conclusion. Perhaps you can tell me which you agree with, and which you disagree with, so we can find where our viewpoints separate from each other.

Matthew 24:30-31 LITV
(30) And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the land will wail. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory.
(31) And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens to their ends.

His elect - chosen - are all saved, do you agree? Yes or no? Elect saved ones - Agree

Compare to . . .

Matthew 25:31-32 LITV
(31) But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
(32) And before Him shall be gathered all the nations; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

When the Son of Man comes - this is the same coming as in 24:30, do you agree? Yes or no? Yes - Agree

After He comes, He will sit upon His throne. Agree? Agree

When He sits upon His throne, the nations are gathered before Him. These are the gentiles. Agree? Or no? Ethnic Groups - Many of you shall call Me Lord ... I never knew you

Matthew 25:46 LITV
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.

Some of the gentiles gathered are condemned, while others are declared righteous. Agree? Or disagree? Again, Same response

OK. Compare to . . .

1 Thessalonians 4:17 LITV
(17) Then we who remain alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to a meeting with the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

These "we who remain alive" refers to all the living believers "in Christ" at the time this catching up occurs. Do you agree? Or disagree? Agree

Daniel 12:1-3

1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever.




Now Mark,

Show me in scripture where The Return of Jesus Christ will be invisible.

Thanks, JLB

 

[mark s]

When He sits upon His throne, the nations are gathered before Him. These are the gentiles. Agree? Or no? Ethnic Groups - Many of you shall call Me Lord ... I never knew you

Matthew 25:46 LITV
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.

Some of the gentiles gathered are condemned, while others are declared righteous. Agree? Or disagree? Again, Same response

Hi JLB,

Thank you for your simple answers. However, I didn't really understand if you agree or disagree on the two questions above. Would you agree are disagree with these conclusions on those particular verses?

Now Mark,

Show me in scripture where The Return of Jesus Christ will be invisible.

Thanks, JLB

I'm sorry, I have not said that the Return of Jesus Christ will be invisible.

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[avoice]

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. - 1 Thess 5:5

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. - 2 Peter 3:9

[sup]2[/sup]That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
[sup]3[/sup]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; - 2 Thess 2:2-3

So the signs of Christs coming are these...

1. There will be a great falling away
2. The son of Perdition (The Anti-Christ) revealed

When the Anti-Christ is revealed then it is rapture time.

100% True the son of Perdition/antichrist must be revealed first and the day of the Lord does come as a theif .

However you fail to follow through.... the son of perdition/Antichrist with his locust army does not appear on the scene until the 5th trump (rev. 9)

the first 4 trumps are upon the earth not the souls of men.

Secondly the DAY OF THE LORD is the 7th trump and last trump.
its when Christ returns and pours out his wrath against all evil. the church is not his target evil is.
Its the only time he returns.
Thats why its called a day of darkness ( joel 2:31) a day of wrath Zep 1:15 it is for the wicked.
Your protection is the seal of God in your forhead/mind God always protects his own thats called faith
but there is no rapture written in the scriptures

 

[veteran]

Hi veteran,

JLB has expressed the desire to debate with me over the rapture of the church.

He began with wanting to establish an hermaneutic rule based on a passage in John. But then he did not want to discuss that. He asked me whether I agreed that his three passages all described the same event. I've said from the beginning that based on what is said in the Olivette Discourse, they cannot be the same event. What is not "straight" about that???

But then, it seems you also understand I'm giving a clear answer, since you've responded more directly to my assertions than JLB has.

As it turns out, it doesn't seem that he actually wants to discuss what I've posted on the rapture after all. Even after acknowledging my answer, he simply asks the same question over again, as if I have not answered.

Now you are asking me the same question, again, as if I have not answered. Yet this was in my very first post in this thread.

JLB's question I was referring to is of the 3 Scripture examples he gave about the 'gathering' of the saints to Jesus Christ. Your response to that 'suggests' you do not... agree all 3 of those examples are about the same event of Christ gathering His Church at His coming. Your answer only suggests a position based on your inclusion of the Matt.25 sheep/goats event, which really is not an answer.

It's clear to me as you first stated, that you adhere to pre-trib doctrines, like you said concerning the start of the last 'week' of Daniel's seventy weeks. Still, your answer was beyond what JLB was asking, and off topic. The 'act' of the gathering is a separate issue per elementary logic, regardless of what you believe about Matt.25:31-34.

When I say "exclusionary facts", I am referring to facts which prohibit the conclusions being presented. John leaves the room when George enters the room. If that is true, then you cannot conclude that George and John are in the room at the same time. The facts exclude it.

That's an illogically applied idea and also off topic, and irrelevant to any such derived "exclusionary facts" term. Biblical facts are not 'exclusionary', although there is such a thing as an exclusionary rule in law, where facts which exist involving a case may be relevant, but must be excluded... because of being illegally obtained. Such an idea has nothing to do with God's Word, nor the topic of this thread. Neither JLB or myself have brought up exclusionist type questions. You're simply avoiding the question and beating around the bush, is that clear?

"Secrets" that we can't know? Then how would I know them? Frankly, this is beginning to sound a bit perjorative. But I'll assume you are simply asking the question.

I was simply asking a question, because you're using terminology that is irrelevant to JLB's question, and also irrelevant to your own answer. Your belief that Matt.24:29-31 is about Israel, while Matt.25:31-34 is about Gentiles, cannot be established. If it could, you would have easily been able to do that, but you have not.

I will refer to my previous assertion:


Jesus appears and gathers the chosen.
Jesus sits upon His throne.
Jesus gathers the nations, and separated the righteous from the wicked.

Not quite. After the tribulation, Jesus gathers His Church and brings them to Jerusalem with Him. Then He sits upon the throne of David on earth, in Jerusalem. But per the Matt.25:31-34 Scripture, His sheep He gathers on His right hand belong to His Church, because of this...

Matt 25:34
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"
(KJV)

Apostle Paul covered that prophecy, as did Apostle Peter, for it's about the predestination of those who would believe on Jesus Christ unto Salvation, and believing Israel has NEVER... been excluded in that! If you say they are, then you've got a whole lot of both Old Testament and New Testament Scripture standing squarely against you, including directly from Apostle Paul.

That's why it's ludicrous to try and affirm that Matt.25 Scripture is only about believing Gentiles.

In the Olivette discourse, there are two gatherings. Both groups contain saved. The second group also contains unsaved.

You cannot prove any of that. There's only one group of saints mentioned in Matt.24, the ones Jesus was giving His warnings to and about. And since those signs He was giving there are about the end of this present world leading up to His return and the 'gathering' of all of His Church, it's for us Gentiles too, all of His Church. Otherwise, you may as well throw away His Book of Revelation because those are the same 'signs' of the end He was giving in His Matt.24 Olivet discourse.

In Paul's harpazo, "we who are alive and remain" are caught away.

The first gathering is not "we who are alive and remain", because some remain afterward, to be gathered among the nations.

The gathering of Christ's Church at His coming, per 1 Thess.4, is a two-part gathering to Christ Jesus, both parts at the SAME time. It is not 2 different gatherings at 2 different times, which is man's leaven doctrine added to the Scripture.

Believers still alive on earth are gathered with Him and the resurrected saints that He brings with Him, that's what the 1 Thess.4 actually declares as written. What you're saying doesn't agree with what's actually written there.

The nations are divided according to how they treated "Jesus' brothers". This can only be an outside group, otherwise, it becomes circular, that they be separated by comparing them to themselves. That is illogical.

The idea of "nations" there is not some Jewish idea of 'goyim'. Christ's sheep represent His many-membered Body, His Church, regardless of nationality. Clearly, that includes believing Israel too! You're trying to create a separate gathering just to try and support the pre-trib rapture theory doctrines of men, and that's confusion.

We are given an outside group by whom they are separated, the "chosen", who were already gathered.

The Matt.25 Scripture is NOT a continuation of the Matt.24 event order. You're trying to treat Matt.25 as if it were part of the chronology of Matt.24. It is not. Pretty obvious too that it's not, since Jesus starts giving 'parables' at the very start of the Matt.25 chapter as comparisons to what the Kingdom of Heaven is like (Matt.25:1).

Therefore, this supports the otherwise logical conclusion that the first gathering, the chosen, is Israel, while the second gathering, the nations, are just that. This is further supported by passages in Ezekiel and Joel, among others.

All you're showing us is just how an initial false premise can continue to lead to confusion of Scripture throughout the rest of God's Word. The Books of Joel and Ezekiel do not support any such false premise of two separate gatherings to Christ Jesus. The gathering of the sheep in Matt.25 is the same gathering of His Church per Matt.24:29-31, the same gathering to Christ that Paul gave in 1 Thess.4, and the same gathering which Christ Himself gave to His Apostle John in Revelation.

veteran, have I said anything whatsoever about traditions? Why does this enter the discussion? That is not a rhetorical question, though I do not really expect it to be truly answered. I think I know the answer.

Because that's exactly what you're following, traditions of men that first began in 1830's Great Britain. You're not actually staying with how the Scriptures are written, but instead go with a false premise of men about 2 separate gatherings to Christ by trying to make the 'sheep' of Matt.25 and Christ's elect of Matt.24:29-31 into two unrelated groups (Dispensationalist doctrines of men which came out of 1800's Great Britain).

Christ's elect of Matt.24 are the same "sheep" of Matt.25, His whole Church. It's because that's who was ordained to inherit the Kingdom from the foundation of the world. You should easily understand that fact too, since Jesus promised His Apostles would each sit upon thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel in His future Kingdom, and... Apostle Paul declared believing Gentiles on Christ Jesus as part of the "commonwealth of Israel" (per Ephesians 2).

You probably think you've actually found something marvelous with such confusion between the Matt.24:29-31 and Matt.25:31-34 Scriptures, but you have not.

 

[[email protected]]

The tribulation has already occurred. Referred to in other circles as The Holocaust, it remains one of the most diabolical policies of any political state in history. Popularized by 1930's German leadership, it resulted in the horrific deaths of millions of innocent people. To the discredit of the church, it remains popular to this day.

Based on Millenialism and Dispensationalism of the nineteenth century, the modern interpretation of the last days is derived from a time table that was laid out before the beginning of the great wars of the twentieth century. A time table that I submit is outdated and obsolete, made so by history. Unfortunately, many Christians think that these doctrines are gospel and refuse to acknowledge error in their teaching. They refuse to acknowledge the reality of history and as such they refuse to acknowledge the meaning of the deaths of millions. To them the Holocaust is little more than an entertaining flair in history. They hope that it will be repeated!

Refusing to accept the Holocaust as the Biblical event labeled 'the great tribulation', those that love to see Jewish blood flowing in the streets (closet Nazis or Muslim radicals), hope and pray and write and dream of a time when Hitler's final solution will be repeated on the earth. Personally, I find such refusal and such attitudes disgusting repugnant and thoroughly inhuman. Yet they who hope for it remain content in their misguided ideology and congratulate one another on their firm grasp of history, prophecy and bloodlust saying only that God wills it. Sorry to say, He doesn't.

The tribulation is past and other events in Biblical prophecy are on the horizon. Many of them are frighteningly clear and close to fulfillment. One of them is the destruction of America as an international power broker. That's another subject of discussion, one that is equally ignored in the minds and hearts of all true American jingoist anti-Semitic Christians.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[veteran]

The tribulation has already occurred. Referred to in other circles as The Holocaust, it remains one of the most diabolical policies of any political state in history. Popularized by 1930's German leadership, it resulted in the horrific deaths of millions of innocent people. To the discredit of the church, it remains popular to this day.

Based on Millenialism and Dispensationalism of the nineteenth century, the modern interpretation of the last days is derived from a time table that was laid out before the beginning of the great wars of the twentieth century. A time table that I submit is outdated and obsolete, made so by history. Unfortunately, many Christians think that these doctrines are gospel and refuse to acknowledge error in their teaching. They refuse to acknowledge the reality of history and as such they refuse to acknowledge the meaning of the deaths of millions. To them the Holocaust is little more than an entertaining flair in history. They hope that it will be repeated!
....

That's BLASPHEMY against Christ Jesus and His Church!

 

[JLB]

The tribulation has already occurred. Referred to in other circles as The Holocaust, it remains one of the most diabolical policies of any political state in history. Popularized by 1930's German leadership, it resulted in the horrific deaths of millions of innocent people. To the discredit of the church, it remains popular to this day.

Based on Millenialism and Dispensationalism of the nineteenth century, the modern interpretation of the last days is derived from a time table that was laid out before the beginning of the great wars of the twentieth century. A time table that I submit is outdated and obsolete, made so by history. Unfortunately, many Christians think that these doctrines are gospel and refuse to acknowledge error in their teaching. They refuse to acknowledge the reality of history and as such they refuse to acknowledge the meaning of the deaths of millions. To them the Holocaust is little more than an entertaining flair in history. They hope that it will be repeated!

Refusing to accept the Holocaust as the Biblical event labeled 'the great tribulation', those that love to see Jewish blood flowing in the streets (closet Nazis or Muslim radicals), hope and pray and write and dream of a time when Hitler's final solution will be repeated on the earth. Personally, I find such refusal and such attitudes disgusting repugnant and thoroughly inhuman. Yet they who hope for it remain content in their misguided ideology and congratulate one another on their firm grasp of history, prophecy and bloodlust saying only that God wills it. Sorry to say, He doesn't.

The tribulation is past and other events in Biblical prophecy are on the horizon. Many of them are frighteningly clear and close to fulfillment. One of them is the destruction of America as an international power broker. That's another subject of discussion, one that is equally ignored in the minds and hearts of all true American jingoist anti-Semitic Christians.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

We are actually reffering to the biblical Great Tribulation -

15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The one referred to by The Lord Himself in Matthew 24:21


The one where the Jews will be in Jerusalem at the time of this event.

Last time I checked, The Holocaust occured in Germany, not in Jerusalem.

Furthermore, Israel wasn't even recognized as a nation then.

Stop hollering from the choir loft and open your bible, you find it interesting!

 

[7angels]

i found this and i thought it was interesting so i thought i would share it with the rest of you and see what you all think.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/revelation/introduction/when-does-the-day-of-the-lord-dawn.html

A point of confusion arises when determining when the Day of the Lord begins. Some of the passages concerning this period appear contradictory

1. Paul indicates that the day comes unexpectedly during a time of relative peace and safety: “The day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. for when they say ‘peace and safety!’ then sudden destruction comes upon them” [emphasis added] (1Th. 1Th. 5:2-3). Peter also indicates the unexpected and sudden arrival of the day: “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up” (2Pe. 2Pe. 3:10).
2. The proclamation by the earth dwellers in response to the cosmic signs of the sixth seal indicate they understand the Day of the Lord has already begun. “Hide us . . . for the great day of His wrath has come and who is able to stand?” (Rev. Rev. 6:16-17+).
3. Jesus indicates that cosmic signs occur immediately after the tribulation of those days, (Mtt. Mat. 24:29).
4. Joel says dramatic cosmic signs precede the sixth seal: “And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: blood and fire and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD” [emphasis added] (Joel Joel 2:30-31).
5. Zephaniah says silence in heaven will indicate that the Day of the Lord is “at hand” (Zep. Zep. 1:7). There is one-half hour of silence prior to opening the seventh seal (Rev. Rev. 8:1+).

The first two passages imply that the Day of the Lord begins early in the judgment process—prior to the opening of the seventh seal (Rev. Rev. 8:1+). The last three passages imply that the Day of the Lord must begin after the sixth seal, possible with the opening of the seventh seal. If Paul is correct, then the Day of the Lord cannot begin at a time when severe judgments have already been poured out and the earth is reeling from their effects. From Paul’s passage, it would appear that the Day of the Lord could not begin after some of the seals have been opened because the first four seals result in worldwide war, bloodshed, famine, disease, and death. One could hardly describe the situation on earth after the first six seals as being one of “peace and safety.” But how can we account for the statements of Joel and Zephaniah which seem to imply that the Day of the Lord would begin later—at the opening of the seventh seal or even later? Answering this question is more important than it might seem because understanding when the Day of the Lord begins is an important aspect of understanding the timing of the rapture. If God’s wrath is poured forth on the Day of the Lord, then the church is taken up prior to the day. If the day begins with the opening of the first four seals by the Lamb (Rev. Rev. 6:2-8+), then the church is taken up prior to that point (a pretribulational rapture). If the day begins with the opening of the seventh seal (Rev. Rev. 8:1+), then the church could be on earth during the first six seal judgments (a pre-wrath rapture).[sup]1[/sup] The pretribulation rapture view holds that God’s wrath begins with the opening of the first seal), whereas the pre-wrath rapture view holds that none of the first six seals involve God’s wrath and that His wrath only begins with the opening of the seventh seal. Therefore, pre-wrath advocates argue that the Day of the Lord does not begin until the opening of the seventh seal. Both positions believe the church is spared from God’s wrath and will be taken up prior to the Day of the Lord, but differ in their understanding of when the Day of the Lord begins. Regarding the seemingly contradictory statements of Paul, Joel, Zephaniah, and John: how do we solve this “bible difficulty?” For one, we remember the Golden Rule of Interpretation: that Scripture interprets Scripture. The Word of God is given by the Holy Spirit and so is self-consistent. Whatever “contradiction” we see must be a result of our lack of understanding. So which is it? Does the day come as a thief, unexpectedly upon a relatively tranquil world? Or does it come after dramatic cosmic signs and the first six seals wreak worldwide havoc? The answer appears to be . . . both! In understanding the various uses of the phrase Day of the Lord, Showers identifies both a broad and a narrow sense:
The biblical expression “the Day of the Lord” has a double sense (broad and narrow) in relationship to the future. The broad sense refers to an extended period of time involving divine interventions related at least to the 70th week of Daniel and the thousand-year Millennium. . . . Concerning this broad sense, A. B. Davidson wrote: “Though the “Day of the Lord,” as the expression implies, was at first conceived as a definite and brief period of time, being an era of judgment and salvation, it many times broadened out to be an extended period. From being a day it became an epoch.” . . .in the narrow sense it refers to one specific day—the day on which Christ will return to the earth from heaven with His angels.[sup]2[/sup]
Thus, the phrase, Day of the Lord, can denote the entire period from when the initial judgments of God are first manifested (at a time of relative peace and safety) through the end of the Millennium (the broad sense) or it can denote the specific day upon which Christ physically returns to earth to destroy the armies gathered against Him (Rev. Rev. 19:11-21+). When Paul refers to the day coming “as a thief . . . when they say peace and safety,” he is referring to the Day of the Lord in its broad sense. There will be no warning—there is no prophetic precondition that warns of the coming of the Day of the Lord in its broad sense—it is imminent. When the earth dwellers react to the cosmic shaking of the sixth seal, they understand the Day of the Lord to already be in progress—the broad definition. Peace and safety are long gone—having been taken by the previous seals—and with these cosmic disturbances, it has become evident that it is God Himself who is behind the global disruption. When Joel indicates that cosmic signs occur “before” the Day of the Lord, he is speaking of the narrow sense—the precise 24-hour period in which Jesus Christ will return to earth physically in judgment (Rev. Rev. 19:11-21+).[sup]3[/sup] When Zephaniah speaks of silence in heaven indicating that the Day of the Lord is “at hand” (Zep. Zep. 1:7 cf. Rev. Rev. 8:1+), he too uses the phrase in its narrow sense:
Be silent in the presence of the Lord GOD; for the day of the LORD is at hand, for the LORD has prepared a sacrifice; He has invited His guests. And it shall be, in the day of the LORD’S sacrifice, that I will punish the princes and the king’s children, and all such as are clothed with foreign apparel. (Zep Zep. 1:7-8)
Notice Zephaniah’s emphasis on a sacrifice attending the Day of the Lord. A sacrifice which involves kings and princes. This speaks, in an eschatological sense, of the very day on which Jesus returns physically to earth and defeats the armies gathered against Him (Rev. Rev. 19:17-19+). This can also be seen in the statement made by John concerning the spirits of demons which gather the kings of the earth “to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty” [emphasis added] (Rev. Rev. 16:14+). This is long after the opening of the first seal, the sixth seal, and even the seventh seal. The Day of the Lord begins, in its broad sense, when peace and safety is taken from the earth (possibly during the opening of the first seal, certainly by the opening of the second). By the time of the sixth seal, the world is already in chaos, but the cosmic disturbances make plain even to the earth dwellers that God’s wrath is already in progress. The cosmic signs of the sixth seal and the silence before opening the seventh seal precede the Day of the Lord in its narrow sense—they occur before the final intervention of Jesus in the final destruction of His enemies prior to establishing the Millennial Kingdom. When these uses of the phrase are understood, we see that the day begins in the broadest sense when “peace and safety” are taken away when the day comes as a “thief in the night.” It is our belief that this occurs no later than the opening of the second seal. We disagree with the pre-wrath rapture position which holds that God’s wrath, and the Day of the Lord, does not begin until the opening of the seventh seal. We believe that God’s wrath is associated with all seven seals and that the church will be taken up before this time. See [url="http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/revelation/related-topics/rapture.html#4.14"]Rapture.[/url]

also this explains my case on the pretrib rapture better then i could.

One of the significant things any interpreter of the book of Revelation will notice is the abrupt shift in focus which takes place between chapters three and four. Chapters two and three, which describe “the things which are” (Rev. Rev. 1:19+), are focused entirely on the Church. Then, abruptly, chapter four opens, John ascends to heaven “in the Spirit,” and the Church is no longer mentioned until the close of the book. This shift in focus and absence of all mention of the Church would in itself be somewhat remarkable. But when it is combined with what Scripture elsewhere teaches concerning the character and destiny of the Church, it provides additional evidence that the Church will not be present on the earth during the events of Revelation Rev. 4:1+ through Revelation Rev. 19:1+, including the period of the tribulation.

Twenty-four verses in the book of Revelation refer to the church. . . . Twenty of the 24 verses refer to the church in the present church age (Rev. Rev. 1:4+, Rev. 1:11+, Rev. 1:20+; Rev. 2:1+, Rev. 2:7+, Rev. 2:8+, Rev. 2:11+, Rev. 2:12+, Rev. 2:17+, Rev. 2:18+, Rev. 2:23+, Rev. 2:29+; Rev. 3:1+, Rev. 3:6+, Rev. 3:7+, Rev. 3:13+, Rev. 3:14+, Rev. 3:22+; Rev. 22:16+, Rev. 22:17+). Two verses refer to the church in the marriage of the Lamb, which will take place in heaven , not on the earth (Rev. Rev. 19:7+, Rev. 19:8+). Two verses refer to the church in the eternal state (Rev. Rev. 21:2+, Rev. 21:9+). It is important to note that there are no references to the church on the earth in chapters 4 through 18, the chapters relating specifically to the 70th week of Daniel Dan. 9:1, including the seals, trumpets, and bowls.[sup]1[/sup]
The church is mentioned 17 times in the first three chapters of Revelation, but after John (a member of the church) is called up to heaven at the beginning of chapter 4, he looks down on the events of the Tribulation, and the church is not mentioned or seen again until chapter 19, when she returns to the earth with her Bridegroom at His glorious appearing. Why? The answer is obvious: She isn’t in the Tribulation. She is raptured to be with her Lord before it begins![sup]2[/sup] has come under attack by many. Some think it represents the novel teachings of “defeatist Christians.” Others think it is pure fantasy. Still others seem to savor the idea of the Church going through the events of the Tribulation in order to “prove her metal” or refine her. We find it difficult to understand why there is such opposition by Christians to the idea that the bridegroom would come for His bride prior to pouring forth His wrath (John John 14:1-3)?
If the Church is to come through the tribulation judgments that are to come upon the earth, then, say it plainly, there is no blessed hope in the Bible.[sup]3[/sup]
So determined, however, are many not to have this blessed hope, or even to allow others to have it, that they would rather hold that this “great and terrible day of the Lord” is our only “hope” and (!) thus be driven to interpret the “thief” [Rev. Rev. 3:3+] or Christ coming as a friend to fetch us away as he steals precious jewels. And this is done in the face of the opposite statement in 1 Thessalonians 1Th. 5:4, that day shall “not come as a thief” on the church. . . . this thief is to be watched against: but Christ is to be watched for![sup]4[/sup]
Our treatment of the subject here is not intended to be exhaustive by any means—this is a commentary on the book of Revelation, not a book on the Rapture. However, the Rapture is an important aspect of understanding the Revelation given by John and especially the nature and purpose of the Tribulation period which it describes. In what follows, we outline aspects of the Rapture which are relevant to understanding the book of Revelation and mention additional resources for further study by the interested reader.

 

[JLB]

7 Angels wrote -

One of the significant things any interpreter of the book of Revelation will notice is the abrupt shift in focus which takes place between chapters three and four. Chapters two and three, which describe “the things which are” (Rev. Rev. 1:19+), are focused entirely on the Church. Then, abruptly, chapter four opens, John ascends to heaven “in the Spirit,” and the Church is no longer mentioned until the close of the book. This shift in focus and absence of all mention of the Church would in itself be somewhat remarkable. But when it is combined with what Scripture elsewhere teaches concerning the character and destiny of the Church, it provides additional evidence that the Church will not be present on the earth during the events of Revelation Rev. 4:1+ through Revelation Rev. 19:1+, including the period of the tribulation.




This is totally untrue nor is it biblical. Nobody should even mention the book of Revelation untill they have a clear understanding from the gospel's, then the writings of Paul and Peter.

The sayings of Jesus are the foundation.

If you can't simply understand "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


If someone has trouble understanding that, then please don't try to make sense of scripture veiled in symbolism.

Thanks, JLB

 

[7angels]

jlb
matt 24:29-30. this is part of Jesus' description of the end of the world. this i believe is referring to the rapture of all the saints left on earth after the great tribulation. i will need a few days i think to get as many facts as possible to prove my point. if you wish to post your reasons and are open to discussion of those points then i believe we can talk. if you are going to insult and go into calling other people's beliefs false doctrine because they do not agree with your way of thinking then we had better leave this subject alone right now. i have seen points you guys have made before and i have looked at them and i think i understand where you are coming from on a few of them but others are still beyond me. so if you wish to discuss this then i am all ears. but a discussion has to go both ways and is not a one sided argument. are you up for it?

 

[veteran]

I think JLB's point is well made.

Quite a few 'babes in Christ' over the years have asked me about things in our Lord's Book of Revelation, when I then asked them how well they knew the OT prophets and the previous NT Books. They had to admit they hadn't studied all that.

It's bad enough that a lot of preachers today haven't done that for themselves yet either, simply because they're too caught up with preaching their mainstream religious organization's line.

The end time prophecy about famine is not only... about physical famines, it's also about a spiritual famine among God's people...


Amos 8:11-13
11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.
(KJV)

 

[[email protected]]

Bible Study by Herbert H. Ogletree

Knowing that the Rapture first, and then that the Great Tribulations shall soon follow. Which is right before us and is now almost upon us, we should be very concern knowing that we are now facing the Rapture in which we also know that no one will be able to see Christ, but only the one that is at that very time being raptured. But their companion shall see or know nothing that is going on, but only their partner that was with them had now disappeared.
Then after the Great Tribulations then shall follow the end of time, then and only then shall everyone be able to see the Glory of our Christ coming from within the sky, knowing that this is truly the end of time. We should now take the advantage of this for we know that our time is now running short and our Salvation is now only can be right around the corner of today.

For we can now only look and call upon Christ that has now already gone on into Heaven, we can always be in touch with Christ with our Heavenly message into man’s Salvation. For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins.
Knowing that we should have compassion upon the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that Christ himself also had compassed. With infirmity knowing that we should also take avenge of this now by knowing that the Great Tribulation is not fore off and is now looking down upon us. And after this is when our whole world shall be destroyed and our earth shall be no more.

But first we are now facing the Rapture to come soon as we find in the Book of Saint Luke
17:30- Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
17:31- In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
17:32- Remember Lot's wife.
17:33- Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
17:34- I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
17:35- Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
17:36- Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
17:37- And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Then shall be the Great Tribulation be upon us as we find in in the Books of the Bible as in Saint Matthew 24:19- And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
24:20- But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day:
24:21- For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
24:22- And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
24:23- Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24:24- For there shall arise false Christ’s, and false prophets, and shall shrew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
24:25- Behold, I have told you before.
24:26 -Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
24:27- For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
24:28- For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
24:29- Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
24:30- And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
24:31- And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
24:32- Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
24:33- So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
24:34- Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
24:35- Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

All of this is pre-digested millennialism with a touch of dispensationalism. Those ideologies sold a lot of books in the mid-nineteenth and early twentieth century. In regurgitated form, the ideas continue to sell in the early twenty first century.

No one seems to have paid any attention whatsoever to the record of history or even to the words of Jesus Himself recorded in the Bible.

The Great Tribulation was the Holocaust and it's happened already. The 1930's and 1940's were the most terrible time for Jews and dissidents of the German government the world has ever seen. Yet those who hope for a future tribulation are actually wishing for it to happen again. Isn't anyone shocked by that sort of anti-semitic death wish? I am. It's unChristian, or should I say anti-Christian. There is one coming upon the world scene who hopes for this as well. I certainly don't. Enough already. The tribulation ended in 1945. No more.

The rapture doesn't precede the tribulation because history isn't going to unfold that way. Jesus said that He didn't and wouldn't pray for the father to take His disciples out of the world. Rather He prayed for hope and help TO COME TO THEM. Anyone who hopes that the rapture will come along and excuse them from paying their credit card bills, or whatever, is dreaming. It isn't going to happen that way. Jesus said so. Remember Jesus? I always thought He knew what he was talking about. If a man seriously and I mean seriously considers the meaning of Jesus intent here, then he will seriously have to consider, as I have, that the rapture ideology is terribly flawed.

The evidence that future historical events WON'T happen according to a 150 year old theory are legion. Space only allows me to touch on two of them and that only briefly. Everyone uses scripture to justify their private ideology, including the leadership of 1930's Germany as they killed everyone who disagreed with them.

The thing that constantly amazes me is that nobody ever thinks about the logical problems with rapture/tribulation ideology. It's so full of holes its laughable, yet many seem to think its gospel. Gospel of what I don't know. It certainly isn't Christian.

I'm a Christian and I am not hoping for more Jewish blood to be spilled. I pray every day for God to hold Israel in the palm of His hand. I can't do that and accept the bloody tribulation idea or the idea that Captain Kirk or Elvis will come along and beam me out. Maybe a person with some mental defect can buy that nonsense, but I can't.

that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[teleiosis]

According to Jesus in Mt 24:15-31, the Great Tribulation doesn't even start until the midpoint abomination spoken by Daniel (Dan 9:27) happens and then on the Day of the Lord, the Rapture comes.

This portion of the Olivet Discourse aligns exactly with Rev 13:14-15 to Rev 14:14-16.

First comes the abomination, then comes the two laws which make the Great Tribulation so terrible for us, the worst time ever (the seige of Jerusalem during the FIRST Jewish Revolt was not the worst seige ever) - and then Jesus will come for us - before the Wrath of God pays back tribulation for tribulation.

The Great Tribulation hasn't happened -- yet.

 

[7angels]

7 Angels wrote -

One of the significant things any interpreter of the book of Revelation will notice is the abrupt shift in focus which takes place between chapters three and four. Chapters two and three, which describe “the things which are” (Rev. Rev. 1:19+), are focused entirely on the Church. Then, abruptly, chapter four opens, John ascends to heaven “in the Spirit,” and the Church is no longer mentioned until the close of the book. This shift in focus and absence of all mention of the Church would in itself be somewhat remarkable. But when it is combined with what Scripture elsewhere teaches concerning the character and destiny of the Church, it provides additional evidence that the Church will not be present on the earth during the events of Revelation Rev. 4:1+ through Revelation Rev. 19:1+, including the period of the tribulation.




This is totally untrue nor is it biblical. Nobody should even mention the book of Revelation untill they have a clear understanding from the gospel's, then the writings of Paul and Peter.

The sayings of Jesus are the foundation.

If you can't simply understand "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


If someone has trouble understanding that, then please don't try to make sense of scripture veiled in symbolism.

Thanks, JLB

are you so close minded that you cannot see that there are two different comings of the Lord. ok let us try looking at it from this view. just like veteran says if there is a first resurrection then there must be a second. the same goes for the first coming of the Lord. we know when the second coming happens and what do you think the first coming of Jesus was? if you believe it was when Jesus first came to earth then how do you explain the 2 different rapture events of 1 thes 4:17 and zech 14:4-5, matt 24:27-31.

or how do you explain how Jesus and the church will come back in (rev 19:14) even before the great trib is over. the day of the Lord is after the great trib not during it.

or how about 1 thes 5:1-5 where it says Jesus will be seen by those of God's kingdom but to all others it will happen as a thief in the night. and then we have rev 1:7 that shows how every eye will see him and not just the believers.

these are all contradictions which need to be explained.

veteran's explanations of old and new testament scriptures is messed up a bit i believe. for example, when he quotes ez 40-49 as Jesus' meaning of mansions being a priests abode is messed up. that was the directions of God on how to build the temple that was built and then prophesied by Jesus that would be destroyed. veteran you may know scripture but it seems sometimes that you have no revelation of scripture. you talk about looking at contexts and everything but you disregard it. now i would like you to explain your reasoning behind your thoughts. from most people that read your posts few seem to agree and yet you call everyone else's doctrine "a doctrine of man or a false doctrine". if you are the only one here who can correctly interpret scripture then you are deceived yourself because scripture states that the word is of no one man's interpretation(2 pet 1:20). if what you say is true then let me see a published paper on your beliefs. if they are true then i am sure others have had similar thoughts unless it is a private interpretation given only to you. i say this not to discredit you but to either allow me to see if i am in error or to show you that you are in error so whichever one of us or both of us can be brought to the light.

Go with God