Follow the Grammar . . .

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charity

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You did good all the way to points 6 & &.

Paul said when we are absent from the body we are present with the Lord at the same moment! grammar matters!

And you confuse the fact that Paul speaks of the body as housing US, and that it is not us! So our body contains us! That is the soul (psuche) of man and for only the believers the regenerated spirit(pneuma)

People have bodies, but are not just bodies.
'For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved,
we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened:
not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon,
that mortality might be swallowed up of life.'

(2 Corinthians 5:1-4)

Hello there @Ronald Nolette,

Thank you for responding, but there is no confusion. The only occasion that mortality is 'swallowed up of life' is at the resurrection. We do not want to be found naked in the grave, but be clothed upon with our resurrection body. Paul uses the figure of a house to represent the body that houses us, our tabernacle. All of mankind, whether believer or unbeliever has the breath of life, which makes the whole person a living soul.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

Ronald Nolette

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'For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved,
we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened:
not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon,
that mortality might be swallowed up of life.'

(2 Corinthians 5:1-4)

Hello there @Ronald Nolette,

Thank you for responding, but there is no confusion. The only occasion that mortality is 'swallowed up of life' is at the resurrection. We do not want to be found naked in the grave, but be clothed upon with our resurrection body. Paul uses the figure of a house to represent the body that houses us, our tabernacle. All of mankind, whether believer or unbeliever has the breath of life, which makes the whole person a living soul.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

that is just the physical body we are housed in on earth! But when we die we leave our body and go home to be with the Lord. At teh rapture we will be reunited with our bodies that have been transformed and clothed with immortality and incorruption.

But make no mistake when ourt bodies die- we do not nor do we go into some "sleep".
 

charity

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I'm wondering, would our celestial body, which we now have, be unoccupied?
Or, perhaps, does our new creation have a "celestial substance"?

Much love!
'But some man will say,
How are the dead raised up?
and with what body do they come?

(1 Corinthians 15:35)

Hi @marks,

We do not have a celestial body at the moment, do we?

'There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial:
but the glory of the celestial is one,
and the glory of the terrestrial is another.'

(1Co 15:40)

'So also is the resurrection of the dead.
It is sown in corruption; it is raised in in-corruption: ...
'
(1Co 15:42)

* Our Body will consist of flesh and bones like that of our Lord, I should think. When He appeared unto them following His resurrection He was eager that His disciples realised that He was not a spirit, and wanted them to handle Him and see (Luke 24:39). Our present bodies go back to the dust (Ecclesiastes 12:7;Genesis 3:19). Let's hear from Job, speaking to his Creator:-

'And why dost Thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity?
for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.
'
(Job 7:21)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

charity

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that is just the physical body we are housed in on earth! But when we die we leave our body and go home to be with the Lord. At teh rapture we will be reunited with our bodies that have been transformed and clothed with immortality and incorruption.

But make no mistake when our bodies die- we do not nor do we go into some "sleep".
Hello @Ronald Nolette,

Perhaps you can supply Scripture for those beliefs, yes?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

marks

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'But some man will say,
How are the dead raised up?
and with what body do they come?

(1 Corinthians 15:35)

Hi @marks,

We do not have a celestial body at the moment, do we?

'There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial:
but the glory of the celestial is one,
and the glory of the terrestrial is another.'

(1Co 15:40)

'So also is the resurrection of the dead.
It is sown in corruption; it is raised in in-corruption: ...
'
(1Co 15:42)

* Our Body will consist of flesh and bones like that of our Lord, I should think. When He appeared unto them following His resurrection He was eager that His disciples realised that He was not a spirit, and wanted them to handle Him and see (Luke 24:39). Our present bodies go back to the dust (Ecclesiastes 12:7;Genesis 3:19). Let's hear from Job, speaking to his Creator:-

'And why dost Thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity?
for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.
'
(Job 7:21)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

@Ronald Nolette

This is why I like to look at 5 Corinthians 5, as it does say in the wording of the text that we do. We have, present active, a house . . .

Is there some way that's not true? It seems like a plainly worded sentence.

2 Corinthians 5:1-4
1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2) For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3) If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4) For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

As I read this, I can follow the progression of thought. If our earthly body is dissolved, don't worry, we have an eternal celestial body. And we oh so much want to be wearing this celestial body, because in the celestial body, we won't be disembodied.

We want to be wearing our celestial body, so that our mortal bodies will become overwhelmed by the properties and life of our celestial body,

1 Corinthians 15:48-49
48) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

The heavenly ones are as the Heavenly One. We now bear the image of the earthy, but that doesn't change our nature, we are the heavenly ones, and we are as Jesus. In time to come, we will bear His image. But we are like Him now.

1 Corinthians 15:53-55
53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55) O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

When we talk about "putting on" the new man, we're talking about letting the nature of the new man overwhelm the nature of the old man, so that we think and say and do as the new man, and in so doing denying access of the old man to the body, the hands, the mouth, and so forth.

The new man is something that is already there. I'm a new creation, it's the real me. The spiritual aspects of my new creation are to overwhelm the sinfulness of my old man to produce the life of Jesus revealed through me.

The new mind of Christ supplants the old mind of the flesh in my life.

I'm thinking that then, this celestial body, which I now have, will overwhelm the nature and properties of my natural body, supplanting the corruption of the flesh,

Philippians 3:20-21
20) For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

So then as our flesh bodies are eaten by worms we live in our celestial bodies, which are eternal in the heavens. And in the resurrection, our flesh bodies are raised transformed by the putting on of the celestial body.

Much love!
 

Ronald Nolette

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Hello @Ronald Nolette,

Perhaps you can supply Scripture for those beliefs, yes?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Luke 16:19-31

Despite many who say this is a parable, it is not. It is not said to be a parable nor is there a comparative term such as "as" "compared to" "like".

People knew of the place of torments and Abrahams Bosom/paradise in Jesus day! They knew they were real places. As well as Tartarus.

2 Cor. 5: 6-9
The at home/absent contrast are the Aorist active infinitive so it means that while we are in the body we are absent from the Lord, but once we are absent from the body (at death) we are at home with the Lord.

Rev. 19:1-8

This shouting and wedding take place before the first resurrection mentioned after Jesus returns in the chapter. So this means these are people in heaven already!

Hope this helps
 

marks

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Here's another place that has caught my eye:

Romans 4:19-22
(of Abraham . . .)
19) And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
20) He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21) And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22) And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

upload_2021-2-17_15-49-49.png

"he was invigorated", "he was in-abled" translated, "was strong"

"was stong in faith, giving glory to God."

Until I got into the grammar of the Greek, I read this as saying that Abraham had a strong faith, and Abraham gave God the glory.

In fact, "he was invigorated" is a Passive Voice verb, which means Abraham was the recipient of the action. Not that Abraham was being strong in faith, he was "being strengthened" in faith.

A literal translation here is, "He was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God". Which is to say, Abraham was made strong in faith, and this gives God the glory for making it happen.

Much love!
 

charity

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Here's another place that has caught my eye:

Romans 4:19-22
(of Abraham . . .)
19) And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
20) He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21) And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22) And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

View attachment 13453

"he was invigorated", "he was in-abled" translated, "was strong"

"was stong in faith, giving glory to God."

Until I got into the grammar of the Greek, I read this as saying that Abraham had a strong faith, and Abraham gave God the glory.

In fact, "he was invigorated" is a Passive Voice verb, which means Abraham was the recipient of the action. Not that Abraham was being strong in faith, he was "being strengthened" in faith.

A literal translation here is, "He was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God". Which is to say, Abraham was made strong in faith, and this gives God the glory for making it happen.

Much love!
Hello @marks

This brings the prayer of Paul in Ephesians chapter three to mind:-

(14) For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
(15) Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
(16) That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory,
to be strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man;
(17) That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith;
that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
(18) May be able to comprehend with all saints
what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
(19) And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge,
that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
(20) Now unto Him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think,
according to the power that worketh in us,
(21) Unto Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages,
world without end.
Amen.
* It is all God's work!

Praise His Holy Name!


Thank you

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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