Follow the Grammar . . .

[marks]

@marks what is being translated as "with" by 101G is best understood to be as "an Entity" where God is referring to himself and the verse would be better understood if it was translated in this manner: -

Isaiah 41:4: -

Who has performed and accomplished it,
Calling forth the generations/ages from the beginning?
'I, the Lord, am the first, {and} with the last/last entity. I am He.'"​

This is the Hebrew interlinear I use from PC Study Bible: -

View attachment 13321

and for me the LXX interlinear that you copied does not seem to express the same message context as shown above.

H:0853 has the understanding of an entity, i.e. in this case "God," and is considered to not be translatable from the Hebrew into the English language.

View attachment 13322

View attachment 13323​

View attachment 13324​

Just as we should be cautious with the English Translation scholars, we also should be cautious with the Israelite Greek translators.

It is my view that the LXX does not convey the same message content as is found in the Hebrew source text.

Following the Grammar, although important, can also lead us astray if we do not understand the limitations of the particular source scriptures that we use.

Shalom

So, you make my point for me . . . we shouldn't go looking at the Hebrew wording and grammar in the OT to bring clarity to the Greek grammar in the NT.

Apples and oranges!

Much love!

 

[marks]

This is the Hebrew interlinear I use from PC Study Bible

I'm going to check that out. I see a free download option, is that what you are using?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Following the Grammar, although important, can also lead us astray if we do not understand the limitations of the particular source scriptures that we use.

It must be done correctly!

best understood to be as "an Entity" where God is referring to himself and the verse would be better understood if it was translated in this manner: -

Isaiah 41:4: -
Who has performed and accomplished it,
Calling forth the generations/ages from the beginning?
'I, the Lord, am the first, {and} with the last/last entity. I am He.'"

In all honesty, I don't know Hebrew much at all! I do well with Greek I think, but for Hebrew I rely on others. I do put a lot of weight in the LXX, however, I recognize we need to be diligent students.

This translation seems good to me, and I guess I've just got done saying that doesn't mean much!



But still . . .

Looking at each of these sources, putting it all together in my mind, and let me know what you think on this, "the first and with the last" from the KJV, "into futurity" from Brenton, "the first and last entity", my take-away here is that God is at once before all others and after all others, dynamically, that is, whomever else there may ever be God is now before them and after them, and fully encompasses all.

Much love!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The Sadducees thought they had Jesus in the perfect trap. They, as some do today, framed a ridiculous question thinking they had it all figured out.

Matthew 22:23-30
23) The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,
24) Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
25) Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
26) Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
27) And last of all the woman died also.
28) Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
29) Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30) For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Jesus answered their question, but then addressed their underlying issue.

The Sadducees, who said there is no resurrection, asking a question about the resurrection, rather disengenuous, don't you think?

Matthew 22:31-32
31) But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

I AM the God of Abraham, isaac, and Jacob.

In the syntax of a single verb from a single verse in the Bible, Jesus proved the resurrection, from the Bible.

I hear people say that you can't base doctrine on a single verse. Is that true? What would Jesus say about that?

I see people willing to overlook "small" details in Scripture that don't conform with their interpretations.

But I've learned, Every Single Word, and it's specific syntax, are there to teach us. If we will hear it.

Much love!

Well there are many verses that prove the resurrection and life after physical death. But this verse is the high key to them all.

Not only does this prove the resurrection, but it also proves that the soul continues to live after death. It is not asleep or anything like that.

 

[101G]

No . . . you've picked an OT Hebrew passage, which you want to limit how we might translate it, even given what Hebrew is, as a language.

You've ignored Brentons LXX translation as it shows how he sees it differently from you.

And now you want to quibble over the definitions of English propositions?

View attachment 13313
Here is what we're looking at. "Pros", toward, the Word was Toward God, and the Word was God.

Looking back to the Isaiah passage, this is from the LXX itself . . .

View attachment 13314

"and into the coming", this was how they understood this passage. Again, these were the native speakers.

So this doesn't have a bearing on how we read John 1:1, and we still find that the Word both was God, and was "toward" God. Or as often translated in the English, with God.

Much love!

GINOLJC, to all,
first thanks for the reply, second, we suggest you read in the Topic, "Genesis 1:26 Revisited, the Ordinal “FIRST”, and post #490, and it will cleat your concerns up.

Thanks,

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[charity]

The Sadducees thought they had Jesus in the perfect trap. They, as some do today, framed a ridiculous question thinking they had it all figured out.

Matthew 22:23-30
23) The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,
24) Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
25) Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
26) Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
27) And last of all the woman died also.
28) Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
29) Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30) For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Jesus answered their question, but then addressed their underlying issue.

The Sadducees, who said there is no resurrection, asking a question about the resurrection, rather disengenuous, don't you think?

Matthew 22:31-32
31) But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

I AM the God of Abraham, isaac, and Jacob.

In the syntax of a single verb from a single verse in the Bible, Jesus proved the resurrection, from the Bible.

I hear people say that you can't base doctrine on a single verse. Is that true? What would Jesus say about that?

I see people willing to overlook "small" details in Scripture that don't conform with their interpretations.

But I've learned, Every Single Word, and it's specific syntax, are there to teach us. If we will hear it.

Much love!

Well there are many verses that prove the resurrection and life after physical death. But this verse is the high key to them all.

Not only does this prove the resurrection, but it also proves that the soul continues to live after death. It is not asleep or anything like that.

Hello @Ronald Nolette,

With respect, please look at Matthew 22:28, and the word, 'in the resurrection'. It is only the power of the resurrection that can raise us to life.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[charity]

The Sadducees thought they had Jesus in the perfect trap. They, as some do today, framed a ridiculous question thinking they had it all figured out.

Matthew 22:23-30
23) The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,
24) Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
25) Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
26) Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
27) And last of all the woman died also.
28) Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
29) Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30) For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Jesus answered their question, but then addressed their underlying issue.

The Sadducees, who said there is no resurrection, asking a question about the resurrection, rather disengenuous, don't you think?

Matthew 22:31-32
31) But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

I AM the God of Abraham, isaac, and Jacob.

In the syntax of a single verb from a single verse in the Bible, Jesus proved the resurrection, from the Bible.

I hear people say that you can't base doctrine on a single verse. Is that true? What would Jesus say about that?

I see people willing to overlook "small" details in Scripture that don't conform with their interpretations.

But I've learned, Every Single Word, and it's specific syntax, are there to teach us. If we will hear it.

Much love!

'Jesus answered and said unto them,
Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures,
nor the power of God.'
(Matthew 22:28)

'I AM -
.. the God of Abraham, and
.... the God of Isaac, and
...... the God of Jacob?
God is not the God of the dead,
but of the living.'
(Matthew 22:32)

Hello @marks,

'Martha saith unto Him,
I know that he (Lazarus) shall rise again
in the resurrection at the last day.
.. Jesus said unto her,
.... I am the resurrection, and the life:
...... he that believeth in me,
........ though he were dead,
.......... yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth, (at the last day)
.. and believeth in me
.... shall never die.' (e.g., 1 Thessalonians 4:17)
...... Believest thou this?
(John 11:24-26)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Hello @Ronald Nolette,

With respect, please look at Matthew 22:28, and the word, 'in the resurrection'. It is only the power of the resurrection that can raise us to life.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

The body yes, the spirit and soul? They never die. As Paul expounded, when one is absent from the body, they are present with the Lord! The body stays in the ground but the spirit and soul go home to be with the Lord! That is whatr resurrection means ana-stasis, a standing again

 

[charity]

The body yes, the spirit and soul? They never die. As Paul expounded, when one is absent from the body, they are present with the Lord! The body stays in the ground but the spirit and soul go home to be with the Lord! That is what resurrection means ana-stasis, a standing again

(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved,

we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.​

(2) For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
(3) If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
(4) For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened:

not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.​

(5) Now He that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
(6) Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
(7) (For we walk by faith, not by sight )
(8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
(9) Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of Him.
(10) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ;

that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.​

Hello @Ronald Nolette,

1) What is our earthly house? -

[Our natural bodies (1 Corinthians 15:44)]​

2) What is the building of God that we desire to be clothed with? -

[Our resurrection bodies, like unto Christ's resurrection body (Luke 24:39)]​

3) When are we no longer clothed with our earthly house (unclothed)? -

[When our bodies go back to the dust at death (1 Corinthians 5:4).]​

4) When will mortality be swallowed up of life? -

[At the resurrection from the dead. (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)]​

5) When will mortality put on immortality? -

[At the resurrection from the dead (1 Corinthians 15:53-54)]​

6) When will we be present with the Lord? -

[At the resurrection from the dead. (1 Thessalonians 4:17)]​

7) How can we be absent from the body, and present with the Lord? -

[If we are 'alive and remain' at the Lord's coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) ]​

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[marks]

Hello @Ronald Nolette,

With respect, please look at Matthew 22:28, and the word, 'in the resurrection'. It is only the power of the resurrection that can raise us to life.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Yes, so far as I see, Jesus leaves that unaddressed in this instance.

Much love!

 

[marks]

'Jesus answered and said unto them,
Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures,
nor the power of God.'
(Matthew 22:28)

'I AM -
.. the God of Abraham, and
.... the God of Isaac, and
...... the God of Jacob?
God is not the God of the dead,
but of the living.'
(Matthew 22:32)

Hello @marks,

'Martha saith unto Him,
I know that he (Lazarus) shall rise again
in the resurrection at the last day.
.. Jesus said unto her,
.... I am the resurrection, and the life:
...... he that believeth in me,
........ though he were dead,
.......... yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth, (at the last day)
.. and believeth in me
.... shall never die.' (e.g., 1 Thessalonians 4:17)
...... Believest thou this?
(John 11:24-26)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I understand what you are saying here, but what if we read this without adding, at the last day, perhaps Jesus is stating two maxims instead of restating a single maxim.

Whoever believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.

The dead in sin, when they believe in Jesus, become alive in Christ.

Those who are alive in Christ never will die.

While I realize that the discussion between them was the resurrection at the last day. As I read it I get the sense that Jesus is trying to disconnect the idea of resurrection as being something "in prophecy", but instead is in a person, Jesus, and it's not about a timeline, its about believing in Him.

Something I notice, where Jesus says, and whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die, "lives" and "believes" are both Present tense, active voice, someone doing this now.

I wonder the first part describes the temporal, the one who believes in Jesus, even though they die, will live again, and the second part to the spiritual, the one who lives and believes in Jesus will never die.

Your thoughts?

Much love!

 

[marks]

The body yes, the spirit and soul? They never die. As Paul expounded, when one is absent from the body, they are present with the Lord! The body stays in the ground but the spirit and soul go home to be with the Lord! That is whatr resurrection means ana-stasis, a standing again

The way I read it, we are already in heaven with Jesus.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Here's some grammar to follow . . .


We - present active have - home not made by hands eternal in the heavens.

We have now . . .

Much love!

 

[charity]

I understand what you are saying here, but what if we read this without adding, at the last day, perhaps Jesus is stating two maxims instead of restating a single maxim.

Whoever believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.

The dead in sin, when they believe in Jesus, become alive in Christ.

Those who are alive in Christ never will die.

While I realize that the discussion between them was the resurrection at the last day. As I read it I get the sense that Jesus is trying to disconnect the idea of resurrection as being something "in prophecy", but instead is in a person, Jesus, and it's not about a timeline, its about believing in Him.

Something I notice, where Jesus says, and whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die, "lives" and "believes" are both Present tense, active voice, someone doing this now.

I wonder the first part describes the temporal, the one who believes in Jesus, even though they die, will live again, and the second part to the spiritual, the one who lives and believes in Jesus will never die.

Your thoughts?

Much love!

'Jesus saith unto her, "Thy brother shall rise again."
Martha saith unto Him, "I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
Jesus said unto her," I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"​

She saith unto him, "Yea, Lord: I believe that Thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world."
(John 11:23-27)

Hi @marks,

Interesting thoughts!

Though I believe that it all pertains to His coming (again) 'into the world', and 'the resurrection at the last day', for the statement is bounded by those two statements.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour
Chris

 

[charity]

The way I read it, we are already in heaven with Jesus.

Much love!

'If ye then be risen with Christ, (by God's reckoning)
seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
When Christ, Who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.
Mortify (reckon as dead) therefore your members which are upon the earth;
fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
(Colossians 3:1-10)

Hi @marks

We are 'dead', our old man has been 'put off' and we, in Christ, are also 'cut off' (ie., circumcised) by His death. We are also to reckon ourselves to be 'dead indeed unto sin' but alive unto God. All a reckoning of faith.

I have a strategy which I use against telephone scams, which is that I reckon myself 'dead' as regards any actions requested of me, by these telephone bandits, who are seeking to extort money from an account or access a computer. I believe the same principle applies to sin. I had this thought last night as I lay in bed, and, while thinking it through, visualised myself when incited to respond with an angry retort, reckoning myself dead again, for the dead cannot speak, which gives time for a pleasant response to be formulated and the moment requiring the retort to pass unremarked. Yet it did not stop me from responding badly when eating my breakfast over a remark passed by my husband. My mind was willing but the flesh was weak unfortunately!!! ​

Praise God! - That in Christ we are reckoned by God to have died with Him and to have risen with Him to God's right hand; and when our Lord and Saviour 'appears' in glory, we shall indeed 'appear' with Him there, having been raised from the dead. Until then, though we die, we are again reckoned by God to be merely, 'asleep in Christ', because of our hope of resurrection. He has promised and He will do it!!!

I have also been thinking about what Christ is doing now, and we know that He is interceding for us before the Father, isn't He? As the Holy Spirit is interceding for us here; and of course being at God's right hand, it is a position of power and great authority. ​

All good stuff!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[charity]

Here's some grammar to follow . . .

View attachment 13397
We - present active have - home not made by hands eternal in the heavens.

We have now . . .

Much love!

'For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved,
we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.'
(2 Corinthians 5:1-4)

Hello @marks,

Yes, it is all ready and waiting for that day of resurrection, and we can be sure of receiving it, because we have been given 'the earnest of the Spirit' as a promissory note, guaranteeing our receipt of it.

Paul did not wish to be 'unclothed' in death, he did not want to be found 'naked', he wanted Israel to repent and our Lord to then return as promised (Acts 3:18-21), so that the resurrection of the dead, and the 'changing' of those who are still' alive and remain', from mortal to immortal could take place, then he would not have to experience the unclothed state of death, and would simply be 'absent from the body' - 'to be present with the Lord'. Only by resurrection, and the change from mortality to immortality could that take place.

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Ronald Nolette]

(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved,

we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.​

(2) For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
(3) If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
(4) For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened:

not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.​

(5) Now He that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
(6) Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
(7) (For we walk by faith, not by sight )
(8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
(9) Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of Him.
(10) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ;

that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.​

Hello @Ronald Nolette,

1) What is our earthly house? -

[Our natural bodies (1 Corinthians 15:44)]​

2) What is the building of God that we desire to be clothed with? -

[Our resurrection bodies, like unto Christ's resurrection body (Luke 24:39)]​

3) When are we no longer clothed with our earthly house (unclothed)? -

[When our bodies go back to the dust at death (1 Corinthians 5:4).]​

4) When will mortality be swallowed up of life? -

[At the resurrection from the dead. (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)]​

5) When will mortality put on immortality? -

[At the resurrection from the dead (1 Corinthians 15:53-54)]​

6) When will we be present with the Lord? -

[At the resurrection from the dead. (1 Thessalonians 4:17)]​

7) How can we be absent from the body, and present with the Lord? -

[If we are 'alive and remain' at the Lord's coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) ]​

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

You did good all the way to points 6 & &.

Paul said when we are absent from the body we are present with the Lord at the same moment! grammar matters!

And you confuse the fact that Paul speaks of the body as housing US, and that it is not us! So our body contains us! That is the soul (psuche) of man and for only the believers the regenerated spirit(pneuma)

People have bodies, but are not just bodies.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The way I read it, we are already in heaven with Jesus.

Much love!

We are seated in heavenly places, but are still here!

Are you writing from the third heaven?

 

[marks]

'For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved,
we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.'
(2 Corinthians 5:1-4)

Hello @marks,

Yes, it is all ready and waiting for that day of resurrection, and we can be sure of receiving it, because we have been given 'the earnest of the Spirit' as a promissory note, guaranteeing our receipt of it.

Paul did not wish to be 'unclothed' in death, he did not want to be found 'naked', he wanted Israel to repent and our Lord to then return as promised (Acts 3:18-21), so that the resurrection of the dead, and the 'changing' of those who are still' alive and remain', from mortal to immortal could take place, then he would not have to experience the unclothed state of death, and would simply be 'absent from the body' - 'to be present with the Lord'. Only by resurrection, and the change from mortality to immortality could that take place.

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I'm wondering, would our celestial body, which we now have, be unoccupied? Or, perhaps, does our new creation have a "celestial substance"?

Much love!

 

[marks]

We are seated in heavenly places, but are still here!

Are you writing from the third heaven?

I think that's the question!



Set you mind on things above, where Christ is, for you have died, and your life is hid with Christ in God. How literal should we take this?

Where is heaven, and where is earth?

" . . . for their angels do always behold the face of My Father . . ." The angels which guard the children see God, they act on earth, but stand before the Father.

Maybe the same with us? We are alive in the heavenly realm, and function on earth through our bodies.

"Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth . . ."

Much love!