Following Paul

[soul man]

When was it the gospel went to the gentiles. A more important question is; what was the gospel that went to the gentiles? the Gospel that would go to the gentiles would be a different gospel than Israel had recieved for hundreds of years; which was law. The law was 'a gospel' message to live a certain way to have a relationship with God. To be what God wanted you to be.

Acts 28:28, gives us the reference to when the gospel went to the gentiles. It would be a gospel (the only gospel) that would tell it's listeners 'to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ' for their salvation. There would be a man that God would raise up all through the book of Acts that would receive a revelation of the Christ in him (Gal. 1:16), and begin to minister and preach that person. He would be 'the Apostle to the gentiles.' That man who was once called Saul of Tarsus; would come to be known as "Paul the Apostle."

We must follow Paul through his epistles and see what this man had to say. Former believers had a hard time coming to trust Paul because he either killed Christians, or had a hand in killing Christians. So he was slow to be accepted by other believers of his day. You can learn from Paul as you follow him through scripture! he is the only one that will give you the 'in Christ message' in all of scripture. Not even Jesus gave us the in Christ message as Paul did..not while he walked the earth. He gave it to Paul only after he ascended. Paul received revelation of what Christianity was supposed to be. That is why Paul says to follow him, and that is why you can follow Paul through the scriptures and trust what he has say. Very important to your growth!

Therefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me. - 1 Corinthians 4:16.

Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. - 1 Corinthians 11:1.

Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark those who so walk, as ye have us for an example. - Philippians 3:17.

 

[Bob Estey]

When was it the gospel went to the gentiles. A more important question is; what was the gospel that went to the gentiles? the Gospel that would go to the gentiles would be a different gospel than Israel had recieved for hundreds of years; which was law. The law was 'a gospel' message to live a certain way to have a relationship with God. To be what God wanted you to be.

Acts 28:28, gives us the reference to when the gospel went to the gentiles. It would be a gospel (the only gospel) that would tell it's listeners 'to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ' for their salvation. There would be a man that God would raise up all through the book of Acts that would receive a revelation of the Christ in him (Gal. 1:16), and begin to minister and preach that person. He would be 'the Apostle to the gentiles.' That man who was once called Saul of Tarsus; would come to be known as "Paul the Apostle."

We must follow Paul through his epistles and see what this man had to say. Former believers had a hard time coming to trust Paul because he either killed Christians, or had a hand in killing Christians. So he was slow to be accepted by other believers of his day. You can learn from Paul as you follow him through scripture! he is the only one that will give you the 'in Christ message' in all of scripture. Not even Jesus gave us the in Christ message as Paul did..not while he walked the earth. He gave it to Paul only after he ascended. Paul received revelation of what Christianity was supposed to be. That is why Paul says to follow him, and that is why you can follow Paul through the scriptures and trust what he has say. Very important to your growth!

Therefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me. - 1 Corinthians 4:16.

Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. - 1 Corinthians 11:1.

Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark those who so walk, as ye have us for an example. - Philippians 3:17.

I don't think we're supposed to follow Paul. I think we are supposed to follow Jesus.

 

[FHII]

I don't think we're supposed to follow Paul. I think we are supposed to follow Jesus.

Well, sort of. Paul said in 1 Cor 11:1:

1 Corinthians 11:1 KJV
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Other times he just said "follow me". But Paul rightfully said (I believe) that he was an ambassador of Christ and spoke in his stead. This means that Paul believed he had the authority from Jesus to speak for him.

So if I tell Soul Man, "Tell Bob E to buy grapefruits"... Its not Soulman telling you to buy grapefruits. He's just the messenger. FHII was the guy who said to buy them.

Paul is interesting in that he's the only man of God I know of who spoke "by permission". In other words, he said some things that were his own opinion that he didn't get from Jesus, and he always let us know when that was the case.

Still, while it didn't come from God, God still gave him permission. God allowed Paul to say it...

I think I'd pay attention even if it wasn't a direct commandment.

 

[Bob Estey]

Well, sort of. Paul said in 1 Cor 11:1:

1 Corinthians 11:1 KJV
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Other times he just said "follow me". But Paul rightfully said (I believe) that he was an ambassador of Christ and spoke in his stead. This means that Paul believed he had the authority from Jesus to speak for him.

So if I tell Soul Man, "Tell Bob E to buy grapefruits"... Its not Soulman telling you to buy grapefruits. He's just the messenger. FHII was the guy who said to buy them.

Paul is interesting in that he's the only man of God I know of who spoke "by permission". In other words, he said some things that were his own opinion that he didn't get from Jesus, and he always let us know when that was the case.

Still, while it didn't come from God, God still gave him permission. God allowed Paul to say it...

I think I'd pay attention even if it wasn't a direct commandment.

Sort of? Paul's words cancel the words of Jesus?

 

[Iconoclast]

"soul man,

[When was it the gospel went to the gentiles. A more important question is; what was the gospel that went to the gentiles?]

42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.



[ the Gospel that would go to the gentiles would be a different gospel than Israel had recieved for hundreds of years; which was law. The law was 'a gospel' message to live a certain way to have a relationship with God. To be what God wanted you to be.]

No...the law was a schoolmaster to lead them to Christ, the PROMISE was the gospel.
gal3:
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

 

[Truman]

Not only the "In Christ" message, but, I believe, the "Christ In Me" message.

 

[Ancient]

Well, sort of. Paul said in 1 Cor 11:1:

1 Corinthians 11:1 KJV
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Well this depends on what English translation bias you are reading. As I teach and study Yahweh's word I like to try and read many different translations to get a more balanced perspective. Those translations including various English versions which must have at least a Jewish view e.g. Complete Jewish Bible, Aramaic (peshitta), Greek, A literal view for e.g. Young's Literal Translation, and Hebrew.

Here are a few different versions of one of the quoted verses being 1 Corinthians 11:1

Complete Jewish Bible : CJB 1 Corinthians 11:1 try to imitate me, even as I myself try to imitate the Messiah.

Peshitta : 1 Corinthians 11:1 Be imitators of me, as I am of the Meshiha.

NIV : 1 Corinthians 11:1 Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.

NKJ 1 Corinthians 11:1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

Young's Literal : 1 Corinthians 11:1 Followers of me become ye, as I also am of Christ.

Greek 1 Corinthians 11:1 μιμηταί μου γίνεσθε καθὼς κἀγὼ Χριστοῦ. μιμηταί - mimetes - to imitate.

So, one can see that we don't necessarily follow Paul, we follow Paul because he imitates Messiah. So Paul is saying imitate me because I imitate Messiah. Paul is pointing out it is not about me (Paul) it is about Messiah. I (Paul) am doing what the Messiah did, I live and walked as Messiah did, Messiah is my example, I am imitating Him.

Shalom

 

[soul man]

I don't think we're supposed to follow Paul. I think we are supposed to follow Jesus.

Do you have a definition of following Jesus? Curious how we can do that!

 

[FHII]

Sort of? Paul's words cancel the words of Jesus?

What?

Do you feel Paul's words cancel Jesus's? I certainly don't. I think Jesus had more to say when the time was right, and he did it through Paul.

 

[FHII]

Well this depends on what English translation bias you are reading. As I teach and study Yahweh's word I like to try and read many different translations to get a more balanced perspective. Those translations including various English versions which must have at least a Jewish view e.g. Complete Jewish Bible, Aramaic (peshitta), Greek, A literal view for e.g. Young's Literal Translation, and Hebrew.

Here are a few different versions of one of the quoted verses being 1 Corinthians 11:1

Complete Jewish Bible : CJB 1 Corinthians 11:1 try to imitate me, even as I myself try to imitate the Messiah.

Peshitta : 1 Corinthians 11:1 Be imitators of me, as I am of the Meshiha.

NIV : 1 Corinthians 11:1 Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.

NKJ 1 Corinthians 11:1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.

Young's Literal : 1 Corinthians 11:1 Followers of me become ye, as I also am of Christ.

Greek 1 Corinthians 11:1 μιμηταί μου γίνεσθε καθὼς κἀγὼ Χριστοῦ. μιμηταί - mimetes - to imitate.

So, one can see that we don't necessarily follow Paul, we follow Paul because he imitates Messiah. So Paul is saying imitate me because I imitate Messiah. Paul is pointing out it is not about me (Paul) it is about Messiah. I (Paul) am doing what the Messiah did, I live and walked as Messiah did, Messiah is my example, I am imitating Him.

Shalom

What I am wondering is this: how does one "imitate" Paul without following Paul? To do so we would have to observe him, listen to him and know his doctrine.

 

[Grailhunter]

Most of the people that say they follow the Apostle Paul or the gospel of Paul are looking to cherry pick and mislead people. Either they are wanting to be sinful Christians and go to heaven or they are wanting to mix Christianity with Jewish Law. And either way the joke is on them. If you hear this rhetoric, put it to the test....read what Paul says about Law. Look at the storyline....

Paul's ministry was more or less attacked by Jewish Judaizers wanting Christians to abide by the Law and Jewish customs. It finally came to a showdown between Paul and Peter with James the leader of the Christians in Jerusalem. The outcome you can read in Chapter 15 of acts....Christians do not follow Mosaic Law. Paul's impression of the Law.... there are dozens of scriptures....He explains that he is not under the Law and neither are Christians. He gives warning about Christians doing the works of the Law and refers to it as a ministry of death engraved in letters on stones and calls the Law a curse.

Nor is Paul an immoral Christian. Paul is the one that gets onto the churches the most for immoral behavior and lists the sins... several times that will prevent you from going to heaven.

These people can only fool those that are not biblically knowledgeable. Christ warned about mixing Judaism with Christianity. And no one in the Bible is supporting the belief that Grace is a license to sin and a ticket to Heaven.

Be good and do good.

 

[Ancient]

Do you have a definition of following Jesus? Curious how we can do that!

NKJ Mark 8:34 When He had called the people to Himself, with His disciples also, He said to them, "Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.

What did our Messiah do?

NKJ Matthew 12:50 "For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother."

Joh 5:19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.

Joh 14:24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

NKJ John 8:28 Then Jesus said to them, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.

Our Messiah spoke what He was given from His Father. The works He did where from the Father. How He lived was in total obedience to the scriptures. Now he who has ears let him hear. The only scriptures that they had was the Hebrew scriptures for the New Testament wasn't written yet and wasn't compiled as a book until centuries later and even then the vast majority would not have had a copy. Due to the huge expense of hand writing each copy. So only the wealthy "may" have had a copy, way up until the 1600's printing press and even then it was still expensive.

So what am I saying our Messiah did and lived what the Hebrew scriptures taught. He taught the Hebrew scriptures the only scriptures they had. He kept the Sabbath, He kept the annual feasts, He ate clean foods, etc etc.

Now please understand I "Do not advocate that these things save you". We are saved by the shed blood of our Messiah, we are redeemed by His sacrifice on the cross of redemption. We can only be redeemed by Him.

Paul also did all these things as did Peter. They imitated the Messiah, they lived as Messiah lived. They took up their crosses and followed Messiah daily. This is a continual action not a one off. The book of Acts and some of Paul's letter's reveal how they did this.

Paul spent so much time proving that he still followed the Hebrew scriptures, he is continually defending the Hebrew scriptures. Certain ones accused him of breaking and not living the Hebrew scriptures and Paul proves that he still advocated for the observance of them. For example Paul proved this by the paying for those who were doing a Nazarite vow, this was an expensive exercise. He kept the Sabbath, feasts etc etc. They were referred to as being "of the way" followers of our Messiah.

Notice how you never see the apostles, and disciples ever being accused of not keeping the Sabbath, feasts etc etc.

What was the words and will of our Father at the time these thing were declared 2,000 yrs ago. The Hebrew scriptures, and what our Father declared and spoke through the prophets which is still our Fathers words and will.

Shalom

 

[Enoch111]

When was it the gospel went to the gentiles.

Believe it or not but the people who first recognized Jesus as the Savior of the world were the despised Samaritans (Gentiles). This was early in the earthly ministry of Christ. Then there were others (Romans) who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ while He was on earth. Even before that the wise men from the East came and worshipped Christ as the King of the Jews when He was born.

A more important question is; what was the gospel that went to the gentiles?

There is no difference between the Gospel to the Jews and the Gospel to the Gentiles. Christ himself is the Gospel. His death, burial, and resurrection are the Gospel.

...the Gospel that would go to the gentiles would be a different gospel than Israel had recieved for hundreds of years; which was law.

FALSE. The Law was not the Gospel, and the Gospel was not the Law.

The law was 'a gospel' message to live a certain way to have a relationship with God. To be what God wanted you to be.

FALSE. The Gospel was to believe on God and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. Abraham believed God (believed on God) and it was imputed to him for righteousness.

 

[Ancient]

What I am wondering is this: how does one "imitate" Paul without following Paul? To do so we would have to observe him, listen to him and know his doctrine.

To follow Paul is to follow our Messiah, Paul's doctrine is not different or contrary to our Messiah's doctrine. Which our Messiah proclaimed that His doctrine was from His Father. The Hebrew scriptures. This is how our Father revealed His will and doctrine.

Our Messiah's words, which are from His Father are the final authority. Never ever put Paul above our Messiah. If what you are reading in any of Paul's writings seems to contradict the Hebrew scriptures and not line up with them well you are not understanding what is written from the proper perspective. They were Hebrews living in a middle eastern Hebraic culture. Paul never contradicts our Messiah or the Hebrew scriptures.
We err in many ways reading and understanding scripture from a modern English western perspective. We need to go back 2,000 yrs to the best of our ability and try and understand the text from their perspective and from the language.
Each time a text is translated into another language the original meanings get lost, meanings change and in a lot of cases meanings become redefined.

Shalom

 

[Enoch111]

I don't think we're supposed to follow Paul. I think we are supposed to follow Jesus.

Why can it not be both? Paul told Christians to follow him as he followed Christ. And that was perfectly valid. Paul set a Christian example for Christians by following Christ.

 

[FHII]

To follow Paul is to follow our Messiah, Paul's doctrine is not different or contrary to our Messiah's doctrine. Which our Messiah proclaimed that His doctrine was from His Father. The Hebrew scriptures. This is how our Father revealed His will and doctrine.

I absolutely agree. I believe that is what I was saying all along.

Never ever put Paul above our Messiah.

Do you believe I was doing so? If so, how? If not, why are you telling me about it?

You seemed to have forgotten to answer my question: What I am wondering is this: how does one "imitate" Paul without following Paul?

 

[FHII]

Not even Jesus gave us the in Christ message as Paul did..not while he walked the earth. He gave it to Paul only after he ascended

Yikes, Soul Man! That's a pretty bold statement! But it is absolutely true!

I hope you saw my comments about Paul being Christ's ambassador and speaking in his stead. What he was truly saying is that what he was speaking was coming from Jesus himself.

In short, when you are following Paul (or imitating him... As if that really is different) you are following Jesus.

 

[Ancient]

I absolutely agree. I believe that is what I was saying all along.


Do you believe I was doing so? If so, how? If not, why are you telling me about it?

You seemed to have forgotten to answer my question: What I am wondering is this: how does one "imitate" Paul without following Paul?

To follow Paul is to follow our Messiah, Paul's doctrine is not different or contrary to our Messiah's doctrine. Which our Messiah proclaimed that His doctrine was from His Father. The Hebrew scriptures. This is how our Father revealed His will and doctrine.

In your 1st quote in reply to Bob Etsy you say in regards to following Jesus "Well sort of" There is no sort of it is Yeshua (Jesus) and Him alone.

I answered your question re How does one imitate Paul in the above quote. Which was in my initial reply. Yes to learn what Paul teaches and Paul's doctrine which needs to line up with our Messiah's teachings and thus our Father's teachings.

I am not indicating you do not understand this, but many do not understand this. They put Paul above Messiah (not saying you have or have said that Paul is above Messiah). Many put more weight on Paul's teachings and do not understand Paul's teachings are founded upon our Messiah's teachings. Paul never ever contradicts our Messiah. But if one reads Paul's writings from a modern English western perspective, there may seem to be contradictions. If one comes to a conclusion that there is a contradiction then one needs to stop and understand that they are not understanding what is being written correctly. One needs to understand that Paul never contradicts the Hebrew scriptures or our Messiah.

An example of this is when Paul went to the Bereans. They listened to Paul, weighed and tested everything Paul was teaching and saying against the scriptures! Well the only scriptures they had was the Hebrew scriptures (The Old Testament) If Paul contradicted the Hebrew scriptures he would have been viewed and declared as a false teacher/prophet as Biblically speaking a prophet is one who declares and proclaims the word of YHWH. The Bereans would have not had a bar of what he was saying, but they found him to be teaching correctly hence why Paul was received by them.

Many others are reading the thread hence the more generalized reply.

Shalom

 

[FHII]

In your 1st quote in reply to Bob Etsy you say in regards to following Jesus "Well sort of" There is no sort of it is Yeshua (Jesus) and Him alone.

I answered your question re How does one imitate Paul in the above quote. Which was in my initial reply. Yes to learn what Paul teaches and Paul's doctrine which needs to line up with our Messiah's teachings and thus our Father's teachings.

I am not indicating you do not understand this, but many do not understand this. They put Paul above Messiah (not saying you have or have said that Paul is above Messiah). Many put more weight on Paul's teachings and do not understand Paul's teachings are founded upon our Messiah's teachings. Paul never ever contradicts our Messiah. But if one reads Paul's writings from a modern English western perspective, there may seem to be contradictions. If one comes to a conclusion that there is a contradiction then one needs to stop and understand that they are not understanding what is being written correctly. One needs to understand that Paul never contradicts the Hebrew scriptures or our Messiah.

An example of this is when Paul went to the Bereans. They listened to Paul, weighed and tested everything Paul was teaching and saying against the scriptures! Well the only scriptures they had was the Hebrew scriptures (The Old Testament) If Paul contradicted the Hebrew scriptures he would have been viewed and declared as a false teacher/prophet as Biblically speaking a prophet is one who declares and proclaims the word of YHWH. The Bereans would have not had a bar of what he was saying, but they found him to be teaching correctly hence why Paul was received by them.

Many others are reading the thread hence the more generalized reply.

Shalom

Ok... Fair enough....

 

[Ancient]

Ok... Fair enough....

Shalom to you