Food for Thought on Chris-tmas Holydays

[bullfighter]

(Christina;66378)
No you do not understand the difference between the Law an ordinances and Statutes which were all fulfilled in Christ but the statutes, ordinances ect. were nailed to the cross only the Law was not changed
means we are free to make holy days anytime.the pope can make holy days and make us keep them..that means we can make xmas and easter a holy day because we want to..and if we worship on halloween and make it a holy day no body can judge us.............this does not make sence ....in my thinking we can not change or make new moons we can not make sabbaths or holy days god did..........

 

[Jordan]

(bullfighter;66390)
(Christina;66378)
No you do not understand the difference between the Law an ordinances and Statutes which were all fulfilled in Christ but the statutes, ordinances ect. were nailed to the cross only the Law was not changed
means we are free to make holy days anytime.the pope can make holy days and make us keep them..that means we can make xmas and easter a holy day because we want to..and if we worship on halloween and make it a holy day no body can judge us.............this does not make sence ....in my thinking we can not change or make new moons we can not make sabbaths or holy days god did..........No, that's not what she is saying either. And from the look of this post, you have a mind of a Pharisee.

 

[Christina]

(bullfighter;66390)
means we are free to make holy days anytime.the pope can make holy days and make us keep them..that means we can make xmas and easter a holy day because we want to..and if we worship on halloween and make it a holy day no body can judge us.............this does not make sence ....in my thinking we can not change or make new moons we can not make sabbaths or holy days god did..........
read the scripture and learn bullfighter Galations 3:24 -2624 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. The only reason for the Law was to lead us to Christ once we are there in him why do you think you need to regress backwards to what lead you there in first place ? Its not necessary. Its a lack of faith to believe he didnt do as he said, would you call God a liar then??? 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law Yet you say we are under its supervision ??? What part do you not get bullfighter ..sense you have decided you are judge what part do you believe Christ was not capable of accomplishing as he said ??????????????26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, __________________

 

[Jordan]

Just for emphasis.Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work....Matthew 5:17-18 - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.Colossians 2:14 - Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

 

[cedarhart]

God expects us to live in the real world as He put us here. Knowledge is derived from a collection of information which may result in intelligence. However, that does not create wisdom. A mature Christian continues to gain knowledge and is able to develop wisdom guided by the Holy Spirit from Father. Common sense must prevail. Christ used His always. He was perfect in Spiritual maturity and our example. He participated in social celebrations and social dining consistently. Expressing our love for Him by celebrating with loved family and friends is exactly what He would participate in. In fact, He is the Guest of Honor. :bible:

 

[dchena]

I still think you have got it backwards. I'm not being legalistic. I'm being the opposite. In Colossians Paul is saying that we have been set free from the law (we agree), so don't take part in such practices (we diverge). Paul was supporting them in NOT doing those things (we diverge). And how am I being contradictory by saying that we need to be obedient to the laws that Jesus gave, or follow the example that Jesus was. We are not bound to Jewish legalism, but we have the commandments Jesus gave us. And the first one he gave is to love God above all else. Doesn`t that take into account idolatry? Paul is supporting the Colossians to NOT participate in the festivals and such because they are, in a sense, cancelling out the Grace God gave. Their cancellation, not God's.They have already been given Grace. They have knowledge now. They have freedom. By giving in to the pressure coming from the false teachers, they would be denying their own God given Grace. He's saying' don't go backward and take part in these practices because you are being pressured into it. You don't need them. You have Grace. Some quotes from an article that seems to make sense at the moment:"As you read these lines, perhaps you say, "I have my Christmas tree but I don't worship it, and consequently, I see nothing wrong with it." Let me remind you, however, that you don't determine what is right and what is wrong. God determines what's right and wrong. If the Christmas tree is not an idol to you, why are you so reluctant to give it up? What are you doing down on your knees when you place your gifts under it?"How is the tradition not idolatry? "I want to reemphasize: I don't know of a single thing connected with Christmas that is biblical. You have to go outside of the Bible to learn of the Christmas tree, Santa Claus, the holly wreath, mistletoe, the yule log, and all the other things that go along with the Christmas celebration. Let's be honest before God and admit that this is a pagan holiday and a trick of the devil. Anyone with any sense at all ought to be able to see that Christmas is only good for one thing-to make money for department stores and business merchants. Christmas is not in the Bible. Observance of days is a sign of weakness, childishness, and lack of development. There are no special holy days for members of the body of Christ. The Lord wants us to worship Him the same 365 days a year. We're not worshiping a dead Christ or a helpless infant lying in a manger, but we're worshiping a real and living Christ who lives all year round. Sometimes well-meaning people will make the statement, "Let's put Christ back into Christmas." This sounds very good on the surface-but beloved, how can you put Christ back into something when He was never there?""The Bible is God's complete and final revelation to man, and it tells us everything we need to know for our spiritual lives (see II Timothy 3:16). We don't have to go outside the Bible for anything. God's Word tells us how we're to worship, how we're to give money for the support of the Lord's work, how to evangelize the lost, how to observe the Lord's Supper, and everything else pertaining to the Christian life. But not once in the Bible does God tell us to celebrate Christmas! We're told to remember the Lord's death, but nowhere are we told to celebrate His birth."The rest of the article is at http://www.sovereigngrace.net/should.htm if anyone want to read it. And, yeah, Jesus healed on a Sabbath to show us that we are free from the law, but I don't think He sat down on Dec. 25 with the local pagans and celebrated the birth of their sun god. Nor do I remember reading in the bible anywhere yet that He celebrated or commemorated His birth. He did, however, do this for His death.This is my first Christmas as a Christian. I can't say that as I grow as a Christian that I won't come to a different understanding. While I am right there with you on your statements about Grace, there seems to be a deeper layer. A layer of responsibility on my part. I might have it all wrong, I`m certainly open to that. And, quite honestly, I hope that I do. I am overwhelmed with the changes I need to make in the life of my family if I don`t come to a different understanding.Maybe what`s really under question here is what kind of action we give to `faith`.Freedom of Choice? "What good is Freedom of Choice if I have to deny my God to have it." I really like that Jordan, but, you know, the post you deem self-explanitory is vague and lazy. While it is good to read the references you gave, do some work and let us know what your thinking. Explain yourself so you can be understood. I read the references and apply them, but why don't you get involved?

 

[cedarhart]

"As you read these lines, perhaps you say, "I have my Christmas tree but I don't worship it, and consequently, I see nothing wrong with it." Let me remind you, however, that you don't determine what is right and what is wrong. You seem to be! You're very judgemental about others that you have decided are idol worshipers. You have no idea what's in people's minds and hearts. Judgement is left to Father, not you.God determines what's right and wrong. God through the Holy Spirit gives us descernment and freewill to determine right and wrong while applying His Scripture. Our purpose here is to choose Him or the wrong way.If the Christmas tree is not an idol to you, why are you so reluctant to give it up? What makes you think that I am? Again, you assume that you know too much, where the truth is that you seem to understand very little. Father loves evergreens and refers Himself to one. Should I cut down all the evergreen trees around my home so that you won't think that I'm worshipping them? What are you doing down on your knees when you place your gifts under it?" You're comparing safe physical mechanics to idol woship? If I throw the presents under the tree, some will break. Personally, our gifts are on a table near it. What's it to you? I used to get on my knees to tie my children's shoes, too! I love them more than anything else in the world and they know it. Am I worshipping them? When we celebrate each of our birthdays, are we worshipping each other? Sometimes we have a theme and we always decorate.If you really believe that YOU worship a tree or Santa Claus, then YOU should absolutely NOT celebrate the Birth of Christ. You judge others and have no logic but the one that you make up that you want all to follow; your own doctrine perhaps. Stop Bloviating. Get attention doing something productive.

 

[dchena]

Cedarheart, you've done absolutely nothing different. Bloviator: I'll take that to heart. Thing about the internet is that you can't actually hear a person's tone. I should have been more careful. I'm sorry I've offended you. I take responsibility for that. I didn't think it through before I posted the quotes. Honestly, they weren't an attack on you. They are posing questions that I have. This is a thread about Christian perspectives on the holidays. When I take part here, I expect different views and to have my views challenged. That's why I'm here. And being this is a Christianity forum, topics can get quite heated. The issues much of the time come down to life and death. I'm fully aware that only God know's what's in your heart and what you give yourself to. Contrary to your belief, I don't judge you. Also, I don't know what my stance is on this topic. I'm putting out the understandings I'm working through, what makes sense to me at the moment, and what I'm thinking. The point of this discussion, sometimes debate, is to get other opinions and learn something. I'm just working out all the new stuff I'm reading, trying to know God better, and using this forum to become aware of different opinions. I don't think I know anything, but I can think for myself, being human like you, and these are the things I'm thinking. I am sorry I have offended you, or anyone else here. I understand how it happened. From cedarheart: God expects us to live in the real world as He put us here."Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him" (I John 2:15). I think he still wants us to make some difficult choices.

 

[Christina]

dchena I gave you the scriptures for you to go back to using laws ordinances, statutes that were nailed to the cross is to dent what Christ accomplished. We are to follow the ten commandments not the precepts ordinances, and statutes. Thou shall have no other Gods before me having an evergreen tree and worshiping our father in heaven is not having another God. To get to caught up in old statutes and ordinances is exactly what the Pharisee's did that Christ preached against.

 

[Christina]

(cedarhart;66405)
"As you read these lines, perhaps you say, "I have my Christmas tree but I don't worship it, and consequently, I see nothing wrong with it." Let me remind you, however, that you don't determine what is right and what is wrong. You seem to be! You're very judgemental about others that you have decided are idol worshipers. You have no idea what's in people's minds and hearts. Judgement is left to Father, not you.God determines what's right and wrong. God through the Holy Spirit gives us descernment and freewill to determine right and wrong while applying His Scripture. Our purpose here is to choose Him or the wrong way.If the Christmas tree is not an idol to you, why are you so reluctant to give it up? What makes you think that I am? Again, you assume that you know too much, where the truth is that you seem to understand very little. Father loves evergreens and refers Himself to one. Should I cut down all the evergreen trees around my home so that you won't think that I'm worshipping them? What are you doing down on your knees when you place your gifts under it?" You're comparing safe physical mechanics to idol woship? If I throw the presents under the tree, some will break. Personally, our gifts are on a table near it. What's it to you? I used to get on my knees to tie my children's shoes, too! I love them more than anything else in the world and they know it. Am I worshipping them? When we celebrate each of our birthdays, are we worshipping each other? Sometimes we have a theme and we always decorate.If you really believe that YOU worship a tree or Santa Claus, then YOU should absolutely NOT celebrate the Birth of Christ. You judge others and have no logic but the one that you make up that you want all to follow; your own doctrine perhaps. Stop Bloviating. Get attention doing something productive.
Amen to that Cedar

 

[precepts]

The question still remains, how do we know what is sin unless we read the law.

 

[dchena]

Insight:I have been open about being a new Christian. I turned my life over to Christ about 4 months ago. Where I cam from is a pretty dark place. I had a rough time as a child, which led to a rough time as a teen, and a rough time as an adult. I wish I had given some of my background earlier to you all. It might have pulled out a bit more of an understanding tone as I try to work out all the new information, on my part and on yours. That said, one of the most difficult things for me to deal with (stemming directly from my childhood experiences) is the fear of 'getting it wrong'. One of my favorite passages is becomming Mark 9:24 - I believe; help my unbelief! I have prayed and still pray in this same way. I believe, help my unbelief. Having to do with the Christmas dilemma, which seems to really be a faith dilemma, which seems to come down to a law vs. faith dilemma, this makes such sense. I'm working through this wall of having to get it right, which I think some of you are seeing as me needing to BE right (not the case though). I don't think I'm alone here. Honestly, I'm thinking that Colossians or Galatians might actually have nothing to do with Christmas, but the struggle with the feared consequences associated with 'not getting it right'. This is the personal growth that comes with being a Christian. And the entering of a completely forgein concept into the awareness of a mind (mine). I don't know where Christ said it, but I know that He did say that He does not give as the world gives. I think this is what I'm learning. How Christ gives. It's not a head thing, though it starts there. It's a HEALING thing. A heart thing. So where am I then, on this matter then? Due to my upbringing, at this point in my faith and my journey, Christmas is a distraction. So I'm not celebrating with the tree and the like. For me, it's not whole. However, I might celebrate it next year, don't know. I do know, and I think we all agree on this, that we are made righteous through faith. And the fact that we are all here on the forum is evidence that God is on our minds and hearts, which is what He wants, right? And we are learning and growing. It's all good stuff.So, sorry if I offended anyone. I can see how Paul's advice in Romans 14:1 is so important: Welcome those who are weak in the faith, but not for the purpose of quarrelling over opinions,because it's not about the head. Strengthening faith is about healing and the heart. It's risky business for the newcomer (me), probably for everyone who believes. Each level is a letting go of worldy ways and beliefs, and reliances for survival, which we have learned. Compassion is critical with eachother. We're in this together. Thanks for the opportunity to work it through the walls in my mind. So, Merry Christmas to those of you who are celebrating. And to those who aren't, I admire your integrity. Glory be to God.

 

[Christina]

You answer your own question you are a new student to the word many of us have had many years of Bible study Im not talking being saved or just church This is a Bible study site Im talking bible study here the manuscripts books, Hebrew and Greek, ect. There are many levels of teaching in the scriptures you are on the first level called the milk in scripture Gods says our goal needs to be the meat of the Word Now everyone has their opinions but opinions are not what you should listen to or you will never find the meat There is no dilemma when you understand Gods Word All the laws were given for one reason to lead you to Christ the whole Old testament was leading us to Christ. Once we have found him we do not need the old ways ...The ten commanment are in effect all other ordances, laws ect. were fulfilled in Christ. As was the penalty for breaking any laws. changed and fulfilled in Christ. The Old testament is the New testament concealed the New testament is the Old testament revealed Now Im not telling you that you have to believe me but Im telling you that every mod on this site has much knowledge in the Word, as do many members. I suggest you read a little and learn who has knowledge here and who does not so you can discern who is worth listening too. Discernment is the first thing you need to learn.

 

[cedarhart]

dchena states, "From cedarheart: God expects us to live in the real world as He put us here.""Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him" (I John 2:15). If you will notice, it states "live in the real world" not your "love" the world as you insenuate."I think he still wants us to make some difficult choices." Still? When and who stopped?"So, Merry Christmas to those of you who are celebrating. And to those who aren't, I admire your integrity." A sure bet slam dunk here! Quite insulting.My children were raised with the word "Integrity" and told that it means doing the right thing even when you don't have to. According to your statement, if I celebrate Christmas, I or no one else who does, has any integrity to admire. You're still judging and deciding that celebrating Christ's Birth is the "wrong difficult choice".Difficult childhood is not an excuse for arrogance. Your apology seemed heartfelt until you slipped in a few of your verbal slugs. It's as if your "real thoughts" leak out a little. Abuse? If you would like to compare childhoods, I can give you a run for your money. I've been abused and traumatized in everyway the word applies. Not all at the same level but be that as it may, abused. So, if you want to use the word "Compassion" that's my middle name. However, I have been forced to learn not to waste it on those who do not give it and then use the word to try to make others feel guilty.My discernment has been fine tuned with Father's influence and your words contradict themselves in many places. I will be the first to apologize but when I do, I will not turn around and repeat the same offense. That dilutes the apology, don't you think?I have been where your at when considering Christmas but NEVER passed judgement on others who thought differently than I did. When I was around others who seemed to be more attentive to the holiday and skip over the meaning of the day and it's true purpose, myself or someone else would subtly and tactfully bring into the atmosphere a sense of solice and reverence and perhaps offer a Thanksgiving Prayer. All agreed and it brought it to the surface that the day was in rememberence of Christ's Birth. As much as there is a "falling away" from real faith, there is also a sense of strengthening of faith occuring. Don't deny yourself from seeing all of the love that is shared and passed on at these times. Yes, it should be done all year round and many people do that also. But for those who don't, it cannot be allowed to take away the "intregity" of their deeds at any time. Most "new" Christians, as you state that you are, are starving for the "meat" of the Scripture. They are humble and in awe of their new found love. They do not come into any type of group and presume to teach what they, themselves have just learned, to those whom have known these things all along. Many of us have been Christians all of our lives and some have not but we all have been studying deeply. No matter what the length of time that has gone by, the most important matter is the knowledge and wisdom one gains as maturing as a Christian.Wisdom is gain by experience and life skills. It's not just knowledge. You must know how to apply that knowledge and use discernment. You have much to learn about communication and compassion and if you are sincere, that will come. Perhaps your familiar with:Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. 3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. So when you respond to me stating, "Cedarheart, you've done absolutely nothing different.", you tell me that I am wasting my time with you. Am I? That's up to you.Cedarhart

 

[dchena]

Give me a break! Yeash! Relax. What are you trying to prove now?You need a lot. You seem like hard people. You need to have me 'in my place'. You're not very friendly. Or forgiving. If I were you, this would be a good time for encouragement. But you continue to prove how much you 'know'. And when is compassion EVER wasted?I admire the integrity of those who are chosing not to celebrate Christmas because that is the issue for us. How did you take that as an insult? It wasn't even directed to you. You have it figured out, right? You're comfortable with Christmas. No issue for you. So Merry Christmas. It's not about integrity for you. It's about celebrating. So Merry Christmas. I never implyed that you didn't have integrity. That was your work. Your not struggling with it on this issue, so go enjoy the holiday. Merry Christmas. It was a an honoring.Stop already. What thorn is in your eye?

 

[Christina]

You are the one that came on here calling everyone wrong with the knowledge of a babe pretending to know it all and with a chip on your shoulder then we react and you act all attacked.We arent trying prove how much we know but you know little and come here telling us how wise you are ...like the student that walks in the room and is going to take over the class. We love teaching those who are willing to learn but when a babe comes and says they are going to set everyone straight its your attitude that began all this ... We love the Word and Gods truth not mens words if you are willing to ask question and learn we are willing to teach, The choice is yours ...

 

[cedarhart]

dchena states: "You're comfortable with Christmas. No issue for you. So Merry Christmas. It's not about itnegrity for you. It's about celebrating. So Merry Christmas."Your not comprehending anyone's post or you would not make such a statement. You have judged me by stating that "It's not about itnegrity for you. It's about celebrating".Allow me to correct you, again, You are wrong. You are accusing falsely and bearing false witness.Your sincerity is questionable according to your remarks. Perhaps your motive here is to provoke instead of discussion. You have not acknowledged any understanding of the many efforts that have been made to reach out to you with much information. You seem only concerned with your own view and even ignore examples in Scripture."And when is compassion EVER wasted?" When the person is manipulating for attention and doesn't like being revealed.

 

[dchena]

The best teachers I have ever come across, are the one's who encourage challenge, because it gives them the teacher the opportunity to talk about what they know, the person learning is deeply engaged, and it gives the ones learning a chance to work through their own minds and truely learn. They are not easily offended because they have confidence: true, calm, steadfast confidence that does not get so easily offended. They have patience. If you were both so deep into understanding the scriptures and applying them to your lives, why are you so confrontational, even after I apologized, even after I got soft and explained my insight? Why is that?Where is your humility?I could quote many references to scripture to show you how you have not acted like you have God in your hearts, but this is exhausting me. I'm not saying you don't. But you have not shown me patience, kindness, humility, or encouragement - from the beginning. I didn't come in here with guns blazing. I reread my posts. I didn't criticize you, either of you. I pointed out where I thought you might have scripture out of context. You got offended. When I didn't roll over and give you 'authority' on the matter you continued to get offended. I explained I was new and that I was trying to work out the new information I was taking in. In fact, you both deliberately insulted me. More than once. You also deliberatly insulted bullfighter when he brought in a conflicted view on things. I can see how it might seem to you that I came on strong, especially if you are used to people who give you authority. I'm on my own journey. You have no idea what my learning curve is. You have no idea how God is turning my heart and mind. Where is it written that I need to give you authority because you have studied the bible for a few years before me? I gave you respect, but I didn't candy-coat anything. I figured you can handle it. You being mature Christians and all.If you are trying to be a teacher, you are subjecting yourself to be held up to a higher standard than the rest of us. That's in the Bible. So where's your compassion? Where's your patience? Where's your understanding in action? I have never tried, nor said, that I was trying to teach anyone anything. I'm here trying to work out my learning, and to grow. You're not as far along as you think.cererheart, 2 sentences past what you quoted, I said I never implied that you didn't have integrity. I never said you don't have integrity. That's how you understood it. Not my fault. And why would I be on this forum for attention. That one is totally beyond me. I'm here to learn.

 

[cedarhart]

Christina, You are exactly right. Sorry, dchena, but you error greatly. You are spending much time dressing others down. What questions have you asked? We love to learn but don't assume that your insight is what we need to learn. It could be the other way around.Proverbs 6:12 A naughty person, a wicked man, walketh with a froward mouth. 13 He winketh with his eyes, he speaketh with his feet, he teacheth with his fingers; 14 Frowardness is in his heart, he deviseth mischief continually; he soweth discord. 15 Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; suddenly shall he be broken without remedy. 16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, 19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

 

[dchena]

I was exploring scripture and myself until I started being insulted. I called you on your crap. You're hiding behind scripture and not fessing up to your own behavior. I'm not a roll-over-and-die kind of person. You're dealing with walls in your mind just like I am. Write whatever you want in response to this. I'm done.