Forgiveness vs Atonement

[Episkopos]

Amen. Problem with a "just love and do good gospel" is that the so called righteousness of man falls short of the glory.......one reason why mankind needs the Saviour.....because the only righteousness that is accepted and worthy of heaven is the righteousness of Christ. Which one can only receive through FAITH IN HIM. Really that is what it means where it says His laws are written on our hearts...we've received a new heart/spirit that bears the righteousness of Christ.

We become equivalent to the Jews in the wilderness at new birth. Does God love Gentiles more than the original people of God? That's what many in evangelical circles will say. The problem is our unbelief and stubbornness...easily exemplified by all the resistance to the gospel we see here. We are NOT better than they were. Only a very small remnant of modern believers will enter into God's rest. Why is that? Unbelief.

The very idea that one is more special to God because we are His people is what led the Jews to fall short of entering the Promised Land. A people spoiled and no longer fearing the Lord. A foolish people.

God is looking for orthopraxy....not just orthodoxy.

So a "newborn" child though not yet mature, absolutely still bears the image of its father and belongs to His family...but as children its vital that we grow up from there.

All people are created in God's image. Those who are born of the Spirit have entered into the race of faith that FEW will win. Why? false doctrines, pride, religious aspirations...and a total lack of fear of God. Beliefs yes....but no faith.

Instead these will add a superfluous religious certainty and entertain ideas that they are somehow special...just like the rejected of Israel also thought.

The fruit being produced by so many here is exactly the opposite of what God intends. And these are too stubborn to hear the truth that can set them free. The SAME as the Israelites in the wilderness.

 

[Ritajanice]

All people are created in God's image. Those are born of the Spirit have entered into the race of faith that FEW will win. Why? false doctrines, pride, religious aspirations...and a total lack of fear of God. Beliefs yes....but no faith.

Oh my goodness me!....no faith?....are you being serious...how would we know we are Born Again if we haven’t been birthed in the Spirit ?

How would I have faith to believe in God, if I hadn’t been birthed in the Spirit....who testifies with our spirit about God, where does that information come from?

The race of faith?

Who do you think keeps you saved?

Whoever the Father gives to Jesus, he will never lose one not one!!

John 10:28

King James Version

​

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

 

[Episkopos]

Oh my goodness me!....no faith?....are you being serious...how would we know we are Born Again if we haven’t been birthed in the Spirit ?

How would I have faith to believe in God, if I hadn’t been birthed in the Spirit....who testifies with our spirit about God, where does that information come from?

The race of faith?

Who do you think keeps you saved?

Whoever the Father gives to Jesus, he will never lose one not one!!

John 10:28​

​

King James Version​

​

​

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Why are you defending yourself against the truth? I never mentioned you personally. All people are subject to the truth. This is not about human opinions or favouritism. Is there a part of you deep down that realizes that it is your religious ego that is trying to be saved? Where is the fear of the Lord in that? You need to stop trusting the flesh.

The part of you that is scandalized by the truth needs to go to the cross...to get out of the way...so that the business of saving the soul can get under way.

 

[Lizbeth]

We become equivalent to the Jews in the wilderness at new birth. Does God love Gentiles more than the original people of God? That's what many in evangelical circles will say. The problem is our unbelief and stubbornness...easily exemplified by all the resistance to the gospel we see here. We are NOT better than they were. Only a very small remnant of modern believers will enter into God's rest. Why is that? Unbelief.

The very idea that one is more special to God because we are His people is what led the Jews to fall short of entering the Promised Land. A people spoiled and no longer fearing the Lord. A foolish people.

God is looking for orthopraxy....not just orthodoxy.

All people are created in God's image. Those who are born of the Spirit have entered into the race of faith that FEW will win. Why? false doctrines, pride, religious aspirations...and a total lack of fear of God. Beliefs yes....but no faith.

Instead these will add a superfluous religious certainty and entertain ideas that they are somehow special...just like the rejected of Israel also thought.

The fruit being produced by so many here is exactly the opposite of what God intends. And these are too stubborn to hear the truth that can set them free. The SAME as the Israelites in the wilderness.

Further to my post, all I know is that nobody is saved and has eternal life due to their own righteousness which is a FALLEN fleshly righteousness....it FALLS short of the glory. Salvation lifts one out of their fallen righteousness into a righteousness that is holy because it is of Christ, not of our own. This is NECESSARY for eternal life...there is no eternal life without it because it is the spirit and LIFE (eternal) of Christ in us. Fallen folks are not saved and that's all there is to it, because salvation means we are not in fallen state any longer.

Do we then need to take up our cross and FOLLOW Christ and keep growing? Yes we do....and if we do He is leading us to where He is. Leading us to the marriage so to speak and what that means. How does anyone follow/obey Jesus without believing and knowing Him? He is the only Way to where He is. Keep running the race so as to win it, but I believe everyone will finish their race at different stages of growth........like where scripture says the stars differ in their glory. As long as we are running the race on that narrow way of the cross. til the end.

The fallen have a wrong foundation and are trying to build their tower to heaven with their own hands. The saved have the foundation of Christ and what He has done for us and it is a building not built with human hads, but we are God's workmanship.

 

[Ritajanice]

Why are you defending yourself against the truth? I never mentioned you personally. All people are subject to the truth. This is not about human opinions or favouritism. Is there a part of you deep down that realizes that it is your religious ego that is trying to be saved? Where is the fear of the Lord in that? You need to stop trusting the flesh.

The part of you that is scandalized by the truth needs to go to the cross...to get out of the way...so that the business of saving the soul can get under way.

My religious ego that is trying to be saved?

What on Earth are you talking about?

I was saved the moment I was “ Birthed in the Spirit “..saved from eternal damnation...I am a child of God and am in the Spirit...the Holy Spirit has taken up permanent residence in my spirit.

Do you know what that means?

Please explain it?

John 3:7 Context​

4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Born of the Spirit means what exactly ?

You can’t understand the word of God, unless you have been birthed in the Spirit....even then it takes years to understand....that’s because the Holy Spirit leads us through scripture and helps us understand it....plus it’s all in “ HIS” timing.

Only God can reveal the truth of his living words to our hearts..he does it through the Holy Spirit...and you must be “ Born Again”....

It’s the Holy Spirit who keeps me running that race...I’m useless without him....Amen!!

 

[Lizbeth]

My religious ego that is trying to be saved?

What on Earth are you talking about?

I was saved the moment I was “ Birthed in the Spirit “..saved from eternal damnation...I am a child of God and am in the Spirit...the Holy Spirit has taken up permanent residence in my spirit.

Do you know what that means?

Please explain it?

John 3:7 Context​

4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Born of the Spirit means what exactly ?

You can’t understand the word of God, unless you have been birthed in the Spirit....even then it takes years to understand....that’s because the Holy Spirit leads us through scripture and helps us understand it....plus it’s all in “ HIS” timing.

Only God can reveal the truth of his living words to our hearts..he does it through the Holy Spirit...and you must be “ Born Again”....

It’s the Holy Spirit who keeps me running that race...I’m useless without him....Amen!!

The false accusations and assumptions are ceaseless.

Being born again apparently doesn't mean much at all to Epi. The very cornerstone and foundation of the FAITH. Which granted we do need to be building upon and up from.

 

[Ritajanice]

The false accusations and assumptions are ceaseless.

Being born again apparently doesn't mean much at all to Epi. The very cornerstone and foundation of the FAITH. Which granted we do need to be building upon and up from.

Amen!!

 

[Behold]

exactly . he has said it a lot . now he is trying to back track as usual to make us look like liars .

If he's here for any other reason then to harass real believers, then ive not seen it yet.
That's his other ministry.

 

[Episkopos]

The false accusations and assumptions are ceaseless.

Being born again apparently doesn't mean much at all to Epi.

It means everything to you. You give too much weight to a sample of grace. So, you own a lamp. Good. But the oil costs you everything to have.

The thing about a proper balance, is to give the proper weight to things. I value a full measure of grace to be of more value than a sample of grace. And for that you say I am putting no value on the sample. You are unable to think in a balanced way because you have only ever received the sample. You have nothing to compare it to? Will you listen to anything outside your own experience? No...no fear of the Lord at all.

The very cornerstone and foundation of the FAITH.

.....the foundation IS Christ....not you. Not Christ in YOU. Am I to abide in Christ or in Christ in you? What if you are not available. Does that mean I don't have access to Christ? Or is Christ available to ALL WHERE HE IS. In Zion...in the kingdom realm of the Spirit?

Show me where it says that the foundation is NOT Christ Himself...but Christ in you. It's not in the bible...only in your mind.

Which granted we do need to be building upon and up from.

Not the Christ in you...but to GO TO GOD....to build with eternal materials WHERE HE IS.

The Christ in you is like eating a sample. Let's say a cracker. That cracker sample is in you. But to get MORE than just a sample you need to go and BUY the product..where? in you? No, you only have the sample in your belly. That sample is wanting more of the same (a hope of glory but not the glory itself). When we get the full amount of crackers then your belly will be full. You need to go and buy the product WHERE IT IS SOLD. And for us the full measure of grace is available..at the throne of grace...in heaven.

Do you have any faith? Go there and buy the full measure.

Heb. 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Now if you think the throne of grace is in you...you are beyond the help of anyone. How far do religious egos go?

There is only ONE throne of grace...in heaven...not millions of little thronelets scattered through the bodies of individuals.

The gospel is about ACCESS...we have access to the grace by which we are made to stand.

 

[Behold]

Problem is whether we are seeing Zion in a spiritual (ie heavenly) minded way (mind of Christ/Tree of LIFE ie Spirit) or a carnal minded tree of knowledge kind of way like that FALLEN serpent in the garden.

The problem is that his "higher walk in Zion" is Book Of Mormon.

""""" The word "Zion" appears 53 times in the Book of Mormon, a key part of the Latter Day Saint canon, and 268 times in the LDS Church's version of the Doctrine and Covenants, a part of its canon consisting of what members believe to be modern-day revelation and written down by Smith mostly in the 19th century.
-
Why do Mormons go to Zion?

In latter-day revelation, Zion is defined as “the pure in heart” (Doctrine and Covenants 97:21). In the early days of this dispensation, Church leaders counseled members to build up Zion by emigrating to a central location. Today our leaders counsel us to build up Zion wherever we live.""""

 

[Behold]

Heb. 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

The born again access the "Throne of Grace" by Prayer.

The Prayer of Faith.

""""Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus” (Philippians 6-7)

 

[Mikey-for-sure]

Problem is whether we are seeing Zion in a spiritual (ie heavenly) minded way (mind of Christ/Tree of LIFE ie Spirit) or a carnal minded tree of knowledge kind of way like that FALLEN serpent in the garden.

Hello Lizbeth,
The conversation here with Episkospos seemed to have devolved to a mormon conspiracy theory. Actually, this is the first time I have heard of such a thing concerning Zion . But with that said as a lurker here on this post, all I can say is my God is not a god of confusion I have no idea what is being bandied about between you all and Episkospos.

 

[Behold]

Hello Lizbeth,
The conversation here with Episkospos seemed to have devolved to a mormon conspiracy theory.

You are confused if you think that the Book of Mormon is not the author of the concept of IT's concept "Zion" and the theology that He's teaching as his "higher walk in ZION", that he's posted over and over and over.

Its not a conspiracy theory, its a fact regarding the Book of Mormon.


""""" The word "Zion" appears 53 times in the Book of Mormon, a key part of the Latter Day Saint canon, and 268 times in the LDS Church's version of the Doctrine and Covenants, a part of its canon consisting of what members believe to be modern-day revelation and written down by Smith mostly in the 19th century.
-
Why do Mormons go to Zion?

In latter-day revelation, Zion is defined as “the pure in heart” (Doctrine and Covenants 97:21). In the early days of this dispensation, Church leaders counseled members to build up Zion by emigrating to a central location. Today our leaders counsel us to build up Zion wherever we live.""""

 

[Episkopos]

Hello Lizbeth,
The conversation here with Episkospos seemed to have devolved to a mormon conspiracy theory. Actually, this is the first time I have heard of such a thing concerning Zion . But with that said as a lurker here on this post, all I can say is my God is not a god of confusion I have no idea what is being bandied about between you all and Episkospos.

You are witnessing first hand what the truth does to the religious ego. The egos will try to shut down the message by personal attacks, false accusations and the like...since their own logic is shown for what it is...a carnal religious scheme that has no power over sin.

But I leave that up to you to see that...or not.

There are not many readers of the bible here..otherwise the word ZION would be very familiar. It is only mentioned about 153 times in the OT...not counting the NT.

But one would have to actually READ the bible to see that.

 

[Behold]

You are witnessing first hand what the truth does to the religious ego.

Yes, we are watching what is happening to you and yours.

See, the Cross make no allowances for your Book of Mormon "higher walk in Zion"....theology.
Not today, not ever.

But you can continue to pretend to know what you are doing.
Its what you do.

 

[Azim]

The problem is that his "higher walk in Zion" is Book Of Mormon.

""""" The word "Zion" appears 53 times in the Book of Mormon, a key part of the Latter Day Saint canon, and 268 times in the LDS Church's version of the Doctrine and Covenants, a part of its canon consisting of what members believe to be modern-day revelation and written down by Smith mostly in the 19th century.
-
Why do Mormons go to Zion?

In latter-day revelation, Zion is defined as “the pure in heart” (Doctrine and Covenants 97:21). In the early days of this dispensation, Church leaders counseled members to build up Zion by emigrating to a central location. Today our leaders counsel us to build up Zion wherever we live.""""

Behold, as you proclaim you are a teacher of God's word, why must you go outside of the Bible to prove Episkopos is wrong? Another member here posted scripture from Hebrews 12:22 which shows Zion is the heavenly kingdom:

Hebrews 12:22-24 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Surely Behold, if you truly feel Episkopos is wrong with his teachings, can you yourself not find God's word in the Bible to prove him wrong?

 

[Behold]

. You are unable to think in a balanced way

That's a personal insult.
What is that now, #5679,000 ? And yet you are still allowed to keep doing it.

While, you pretend that your Cult teaching is Truth.

 

[Behold]

Behold, as you proclaim you are a teacher of God's word, why must you go outside of the Bible to prove Episkopos is wrong? Another member here posted scripture from Hebrews 12:22 which shows Zion is the heavenly kingdom:

"Mount Zion".

so, there is a difference between understanding the Kingdom of God, that is the spiritual kingdom, and the way the Book of Mormon portrays it.
Do you understand @Azim

So, That's the issue.

See, their Book of Mormon theology, came from the "angel Moroni".. and that is a "doctrine of Devil's".

Surely Behold, if you truly feel Episkopos is wrong with his teachings, can you yourself not find God's word in the Bible to prove him wrong?

Surely Azim,

I have 500+ posts out of my 12,500 + to this member that use the NT, Paul's Doctrine.

I guess you missed the posts, ive posted today?
Were you too busy not actually noticing this?
Maybe you should consider doing a quick research, vs just posting what is not based in Truth, again.

 

[Episkopos]

God loves Zion...He has chosen it for His habitation. There are many abiding places there...all available to us when we enter INTO Christ to be where He is.

Ps. 132: For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation. 14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it. 15 I will abundantly bless her provision: I will satisfy her poor with bread.


My heart is after Zion...after the heart of God. Do you think I care about what religious enthusiasts have to say about that? Of course not. The sad thing is that people today have no idea about the gospel and the access we have to God's holy provision. His holy resting place. The love, peace and joy to be found there...in HIS keeping power. It's the best kept secret in the world.

Ps. 76:2 In Shalem also is his tabernacle, and his dwelling place in Zion.

 

[Behold]

God loves Zion...

God loves sinners.
God loves His Son.

God loves a lot of things.... as "God is Love"...

However, when you use a teaching that came, (as the founder of Mormonism teaches} ... = came from a angelic DEVIL... = "Moroni"

Then what you are teaching is the same.. exactly the same.
You are teaching Book of Mormon, theology.
And trying to reinvent that now , trying to hide that now.... just makes it worse for you @Episkopos.

--

""""" The word "ZION" appears 53 times in the BOOK OF MORMON, a key part of the Latter Day Saint canon, and 268 times in the LDS Church's version of the Doctrine and Covenants, a part of its canon consisting of what members believe to be modern-day revelation and written down by Smith mostly in the 19th century.
-
Why do Mormons go to Zion?

In latter-day revelation, Zion is defined as “the pure in heart” (Doctrine and Covenants 97:21). In the early days of this dispensation, Church leaders counseled members to build up Zion by emigrating to a central location. Today our leaders counsel us to build up Zion wherever we live.""""