Free Love Issue Is Very Important To Me!

[dragonfly]

Hi brightmorningstar,

If there are no absolute certainties then one can’t rule out the possibility of an absolute certainty existing either, because it is not absolutely certain it doesn’t exist.

Yes! And thank you for reading that rather long post above.


That whole matter of uncertainty, is what the philosophies seek to promote. They also seek to remove the conversation from the heart to the head, so that it is not about heart knowledge, but about head knowledge - opinion, or argument, or external (tangible and visible to others) evidence - all of which go against the Biblical standard of proof; the BIblical standard being that we know within ourselves when God has spoken to us and interacted with us.

He makes known to the individual heart, the absoluteness of His being, the certainty of His heart towards us, and the certainty of His ability to bring to pass whatever He has said. Unless a person has this kind of certainty, they are unlikely to risk their lives to vouch for God, because the element of doubt (lie) is always eating away their confidence and causes them to doubt their own judgement. This is another thing the philosophies seek to do - to remove the deciding of what is true, to the authority of A N Other. So-called wisdom is received, not personally proven. It's a bit of a double-cross, though, because if there is doubt because of disinformation-misinformation, then correctly, there is a suspicion it cannot be relied upon. It's when one's judgement has been called into question and appears to have been proved wrong many times, one may also lose the confidence to judge at all. But, God can heal whatever is broken. I can vouch for that. :)

1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also]. 24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life. 26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

 

[brightmorningstar]

dragonfly,

wow yes I agree, head knowledge (human reasoning), rather than head and heart.
But it is spiritual, we are seeing some in society even oblivious to observable reality and logic.

didnt Jesus say about a spirit of deafness and dumbness, this sort only comes out with prayer; could it be with other spirits that deceive and are blind to reality?

 

[aspen]

But God has put Christians in charge of informing-warning non-believers of consequences, and inviting-exhorting them to escape from the wrath to come.

And we Christians have been more than thorough in this department. Bring me a nonbeliever that does not know that they are sinners in God's sight before they accept Christ and I will be the first to tell them.

Actually Aspen is in favor of taxing christians and everybody else into oblivion to do away with those consequences altogether in the pseudo christian godless welfare state...consequences are the natural result of bad behviour otherwise known as sin....Aspen doesn't belive in sin...only love.

Sinners sin ? yes they do and if they suffer enough for it they sometimes turn from it...worked for me.

Why are you continuing to speak for me, Strat?

BMS said.

That is absolutely correct, but it is a requirement for Christians not to deny it as a literal flood or a literal creation as you have been doing.

Yep - I am correct. Where is the verse that supports your belief that it is a requirement for us to not deny a literal interpretation of the Flood account? And how is that different from making it a requirement to believe in a literal interpretation? BTW, I have not denied the Flood account - I believe I have said that Jesus and I will have a good chuckle over the whole affair, one day, if it is literal.

Yes they are in the respect that the gospel calls people to God’s law and if democracy give citizens the right to vote for the legislation we are entitled to vote for God’s law. I am not ashamed of the gospel.

He calls HIS people to follow the gospel. This has nothing to do with being ashamed of the gospel - and I would argue with you on that point anyway - I think you might be ashamed to love unconditionally - why else are you arguing so venomously with me?

I would say repentance is part of loving God.

Of course. Turning from self interest towards God is repentance.

yes it is, and thinking one knows better than God is too. Which means His Biblical testimony. So saying the Biblical testimony is merely from primitive worldviews is pride and self love.

Well, if you would stop thinking of yourself as God, you would understand that I am disagreeing with your interpretation of His word - not Him.

aspen2,
At the moment in the UK we have polls showing that up to 50% of those who identify as homosexual do not think the govenrment need to pass laws making same sex relations as marriage. That is my experience as well. Other polls show more than half of the UK population think the government should. On that basis this isnt about the rights of homosexuals at all really, nor what homsoexuals want, but about a God hating liberal secular totalitarianism. Yes I vote against such a thing, and yes a Christian theocracy would of course be better than that.

Well, pack your bags......

Strange is it not that a "Christian" would prefer God hating secular totalitarianism to a Christian theocracy.....go figure...must be all that..."love"

Go study the Byzantine Empire for 5 minutes and then come talk to me about the sincerity of Christian Theocracies.

Strat,

Well quite. This is a very good example of deception, notice he cited the Middle East as an example of theocracy so it makes people think of Islamic theocrcies and thus reject Christianity oin that basis.

I did notice that, but I also noticed that all you did was criticize that he only included Muslim Theocracies, rather than including the long, long, long list of Christian Theocracies out there......oh, wait! There are no Christian theocracies anymore......hmmm

For God's sake! Don't look at that man behind the curtain.......

I prefer to call it willful rejection ......in our society "deception" carries with it a hint of innocence....no innocence here.....the Bible is clear and the only ones who can lay any claim innocence are the ones who don't read it which of course makes them guilty of that...its all about people's emotions and judging God by their emotions and creating a god that is subject to their emotions and wickedness.

Or a business trip to Seattle......nope, definitely deception!!! Gee, you really think that Aspen is going to stop posting after 3 years? As if, he has never read this stuff before and is at a lose for words........

Hi aspen,
'It is not a requirement for Christians to believe in a literal Flood account'.

The problem with this statement is many-fold. The most glaring one being that Jesus Christ Himself, THE Word of God, referred to the flood.

Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

1 Timothy 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

I do not see anything in Jesus's statement that demands or even suggests a literal interpretation of the Flood account. He would have used the same well known story to make His point if it actually occurred or if it was merely a morality tale.

This man - Jesus Christ - on whom you depend for your salvation, declared Himself to be the I AM whose day Abraham rejoiced to see; the Way, the Truth, the Life; the Light of the world, greater than Jacob, greater than Solomon, and greater than Jonah. He, or others who knew the OT writings and recognised that He fitted every clue which had been given by God previously, claimed all the prophesies which identified Him as the Messiah. His credentials were perfect.

Indeed!

He had been proved by His Father and approved to take on the task of overcoming Satan on the cross, and God raised Him from the dead because it was not possible death could hold Him. (Acts 2:24) Much more could be said. Paul writes:

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

His death broke Satan's power on the whole of creation:

Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

It really is essential that we belive what He says when He speaks only what His Father indicates.

I do believe what He says - even when He is making a larger point by using well known stories and parables.

John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

All the above is said because we have to become ready to speak out against lies about God's Person, His character and His activities. it is not a passing whim that the Son of God should be trustworthy in every word He speaks. In fact He is trustworthy, because He cannot lie. Titus 1:2 This should put a wholly different complexion on all that He has said, and should become of the utmost interest for every believer. Luke 10:18 I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. One of the key events leading up to the Fall, was that Eve was deceived by the 'father of lies'.

Using stories and parables to illustrate truth is not lying.

Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

'or a literal Creation account'.

There are so many Bible verses which specifically state that God created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them, that I'm not going to quote any. Suffice it to say that it would not just be God whose integrity is called into question by those disbelieving His testimony about Himself, but, all the disciples and apostles who know it's true.

Of course God created the Heavens and the Earth - and perhaps He relayed this truth to Moses in the form of a mystical prayer that took 7 days.

'it can be a unnecessary stumbling block for some people'

Disbelieving the word of God could be a stumbling block to Christ when they call on Him to save them.

Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 11:6 And blessed is [he], whosoever shall not be offended in me.

Matthew 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

Being smart is not the same as being evil. Believing in a literal account of the Creation Story does not exclude the evil, it excludes the smart.


It will depend what God sees when He looks into their heart, whether this is an issue of ignorance or unbelief, or an unrenewed mind. To be honest, if it's a stumbling block, the stumbling probably leads to falling, rather than salvatio. But a person who believes to the saving of their soul, will know the God who saved them. That's part of the deal. That person will know if the God who cleansed their heart and washed it white as snow, was capable of making the worlds and flooding this one.

Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly things?

John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed. 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Humility demands that we are honest. Smart people need to be honest too - according to everything we know about the creation of the universe, the big bang and evolution provide the most logical explanation. Lying or denying this fact is not going to win you points with God.

Personally I doubt if we will see aspen2 again.

Surprise!!

To describe the Biblical testimony as writing from people with primitive understanding reveals liberal unbelief. Whilst they did have primitive understandng of science and the like there is no reason to suggest they were less intelligent and what they describe of course is the seen witness of Christ and the spiritual revelation of God, and not their own wisdom.

It is surprisng then that at the same time on another Christian forum one of the liberals has proposed the NT is not an eyewitness account in any way. Having been challenged he starts a thread on the topic quoting and citing other liberal non believers' articles as well as though we who believe will somehow be convinced by those who dont believe. But the spirit behind this is satanic, right from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, satan's plan is to to cause unbelief. .

Elaine Pleagals? Jesus Seminar? My favorite liberal theologian to disagree with is Bishop Spong - he suggestion to save Christianity is to take the Theism out of it.....LOL. Okay, let's take the main point out of Christianity.....what a sad individual......

I would have loved to know the answer from aspen2's as to what he was thinking of is a worse situation than the motehrs killing her child in abortion.

Terminally ill infants in pain from birth till death; crack addicted children raised by crack addicted mothers who sell their bodies; attachment disordered children who grow up to be psychopaths - I could go on.

Dragonfly,
The challenge is about the views aspen2 is putting forward and to specifically address the questions put to him.
It isn’t the nature of the heart that is being challenged, it is the beliefs being held. One can hold wrong beliefs sincerely. The key being if one doesn’t hold the scripture in high enough regard, as the scripture says one can soon depart to another gospel and another Jesus believing it to be the same.
The rest of your post is very interesting and helpful.
The one point about relativism and pluralism is however that neither work. If there are no absolute certainties then one can’t rule out the possibility of an absolute certainty existing either, because it is not absolutely certain it doesn’t exist.

Relativism and Pluralism are realities in our world in the minds of humans.

I reject relativism - I believe in absolute truth. I reject pluralism - when it comes to transformation of the heart. The mind is secondary to the heart - doctrine does not save - I do not limit God in His ability to save people who have a sincere heart, but an incomplete or incorrect understanding of doctrine.

 

[Strat]

"The mind is secondary to the heart"....another very revealing statement of complete modern christian/liberal nonsense...it has been said before..."if it feels good do it"...try to be more original next time.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Aspen2,
If you are going to ask the question where is the verse that supports a requirement to not deny a literal interpretation, you should be able to provide one that says it is, otherwise you are playing devil’s advocate.

Well, if you would stop thinking of yourself as God,

Illogical. How could I be thinking myself of God when I am referring you to what God said in His Biblical testimony and the writers of it?

you would understand that I am disagreeing with your interpretation of His word - not Him.

On the contrary, yuou may be disagreeing with Him, the issue depends on whether the account Christ gives is literally true or not. I am saying what Christ said is probably a literally true event, you are saying it definitely isnt.
The Biblical testimony records Jesus saying
37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away.
That sounds literal to me, I can’t know for sure whether it is literal, but it sounds like the account of Noah literally happened. Neither can you say for sure it isn’t literal.

I do not see anything in Jesus's statement that demands or even suggests a literal interpretation of the Flood account.

Typical liberalism which looks for what the text doesnt say so as to justify its own ideas. One can also equally say there is nothing in the statement that suggests it isnt ana account of a literal event. So for you to say to say one way rather than the other, you would need to have some demand or suggestion that it wasnt a literal event. Yet you dont. All you do is abandon what Jesus said and look to science to see whether you are prepared to believe it or not. That isnt having faith in God who can do all things.

He would have used the same well known story to make His point if it actually occurred or if it was merely a morality tale.

Yes, I am sure we would agree, but the question is whether it is literal or not.

Humility demands that we are honest. Smart people need to be honest too - according to everything we know about the creation of the universe, the big bang and evolution provide the most logical explanation. Lying or denying this fact is not going to win you points with God.

Then you are lying about God and do not have faith in God where your own reasoning and intellect take preference. That makes you ultimately playing God whilst you accuse others of doing so. Being honest as far as God is concerned is having a contrite and humble heart to God. With God all bets are off, our scientific evidence and understanding do not include the supernatural, they are only scientific interpretations of the evidence. They can and do help us understand the mechanisms of what exists that God has created. But the problem with your thinking is for example with the theory of evolution, neither you nor I have seen Tiktaalic evolve from a lobed finned fish into a tetrapod, any more than you have seen God create the universe.in 6 days. To say one is more logical than the other is placing faith in one unseen thing over another.

Elaine Pleagals? Jesus Seminar? My favorite liberal theologian to disagree with is Bishop Spong -

Did you not read the point I made or did you purposely choose to ignore it? The NT writer claim that what they record is what Christ did and said and taught them. If Christ is who they claim it matters not whether they were primitive, their writing records Christ's words and deeds which is not primitive or human understanding. If you say their writing is primitive understanding then why do you believe any of it? There is no logic in your position.

Now as to the question I would love to have heard the answer to.
You said in your post of 11 June 2012 - 05:17 PM

Many people who get abortions are facing a worse situation than killing their child

Terminally ill infants in pain from birth till death;

Are not people getting abortions

crack addicted children raised by crack addicted mothers who sell their bodies;

children do not get abortions whether they are crack addicted or not. And I would disagree that being a drug addicted prostitute is worse than being a murderer.

attachment disordered children who grow up to be psychopaths - I could go on.

Well that would be people who abort by choice wouldn’t it? What is the difference between a psychopath and someone who murders their own unborn child?

Relativism and Pluralism are realities in our world in the minds of humans.

No they are not realities, but yes they are in the minds of those blinded to reality.

doctrine does not save - I do not limit God in His ability to save people who have a sincere heart, but an incomplete or incorrect understanding of doctrine.

But where did you get the idea that God saves from? Was it from, to use your words, primitive writings of primitive people who had primitive understanding?

 

[Strat]

Its pretty big of Aspen to cut God so much slack...i mean give him so much room and not hold him to his word the Bible....the word that shall never pass away....what a peice of work.

 

[aspen]

"The mind is secondary to the heart"....another very revealing statement of complete modern christian/liberal nonsense...it has been said before..."if it feels good do it"...try to be more original next time.

I see you are a gnostic - you know that is heretical, right?

Its pretty big of Aspen to cut God so much slack...i mean give him so much room and not hold him to his word the Bible....the word that shall never pass away....what a peice of work.

He is bigger than His translators - now I am starting to believer you are getting it Strat! Don't tease me!

 

[brightmorningstar]

aspen2,

He is bigger than His translators -

How do you know? Is that a gnotsic thought? Please explain how God is something other than what the translators of the wtinesses reveal about Him?
The translators say we have faith by hearing the message.

Strat,
Liberalism accuses the truth of what liberalism is guilty of.

 

[aspen]

aspen2,
How do you know? Is that a gnotsic thought? Please explain how God is something other than what the translators of the wtinesses reveal about Him?
The translators say we have faith by hearing the message.

Strat,
Liberalism accuses the truth of what liberalism is guilty of.

You are asking me to explain how God is greater than the people who wrote down His word? - because I never said He was 'other' than what they wrote about Him. His Word tells us that not everything Jesus did was recorded and if it was, it would fill volumes.

Jesus was never in support of the status quo - are you accusing Him of condemning liberals too?

 

[brightmorningstar]

aspen2,

You are asking me to explain how God is greater than the people who wrote down His word? – because I never said He was 'other' than what they wrote about Him.

Originally you said

doctrine does not save –

What was the motive or point of such a statement? Doctrine is summary of scriptural principles. Doctrine affirms Jesus Christ is Lord and salvation is found only in Him.

I do not limit God in His ability to save people who have a sincere heart, but an incomplete or incorrect understanding of doctrine.

Circular. Well in a way you do because faulty doctrine can do just that, according to doctrine. If one has heard the truth and rejected it with false teaching, doctrine says their heart isnt sincere towards God and God lets them continue to destruction.

As Jesus said His words are spirit and life when we do them we need to have the doctrine to be able to know that and do that.
So whilst it is Christ that saves, we need correct doctrine in order to know that.

 

[aspen]

aspen2,

Originally you said
What was the motive or point of such a statement? Doctrine is summary of scriptural principles. Doctrine affirms Jesus Christ is Lord and salvation is found only in Him.
Circular. Well in a way you do because faulty doctrine can do just that, according to doctrine. If one has heard the truth and rejected it with false teaching, doctrine says their heart isnt sincere towards God and God lets them continue to destruction.

As Jesus said His words are spirit and life when we do them we need to have the doctrine to be able to know that and do that.
So whilst it is Christ that saves, we need correct doctrine in order to know that.

The Bible did not die on the Cross for our sins - treating it like a transitional object for God is idolatry. Head knowledge about scripture is not going to save anyone - in fact it may lead to Pride and damnation. The key phrase in your post is ' If one has heard the truth and rejected' they are in trouble. Most people in antiquity were illiterate - they relied on the church to tell them about Jesus. The disciples were not sent out with a book to read to people. The NT was not even complied for centuries after Jesus's death.

You post makes it sound like the Bible is the only was we can know about Jesus - it is simply not true - it is one way, but Tradition is another.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Right now we have sitting judges all across the nation that are trying to stop people like you and me from loving each other. This is not entirely about Homosexuality. These are dirt bag sitting judges that are basically breaking your first amendment rights. Simply because they don't like someone. So if you are interested in getting married to your sweat heart and some judge doesn't like you, these sitting judges can prevent you from getting married. Who has the right to judge someones love like that?

You blew it as soon as you posted your agenda. (see red highlighted text in your post.) Old Testament or new, homosexuality is an abominition to God.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Aspen2,

The Bible did not die on the Cross for our sins –

Yes we agreed that Christ is the saviour. The point to you was that without hearing the message one cant have faith in Christ, and without hearing or reading Christ’s teaching one cant have faith in Christ because Christ’s teaching says to have faith in Him is to do what He teaches.
You are correct that one can know the Bible but still disbelieve it. But one cant know God without the Bible or what it says unless Christ reveals Himself to someone and the test of whether that is Christ would be what the Bible says.

Most people in antiquity were illiterate - they relied on the church to tell them about Jesus. The disciples were not sent out with a book to read to people. The NT was not even complied for centuries after Jesus's death.

You missed the point. Illiterate means they couldn’t read but I said either read or heard the message. My point still applies if they had heard the correct message.

Well spotted th1b.taylor. It is quite likely that the discussion was to be indirectly entirely about homosexuality.

 

[aspen]

Aspen2,
Yes we agreed that Christ is the saviour. The point to you was that without hearing the message one cant have faith in Christ, and without hearing or reading Christ’s teaching one cant have faith in Christ because Christ’s teaching says to have faith in Him is to do what He teaches.
You are correct that one can know the Bible but still disbelieve it. But one cant know God without the Bible or what it says unless Christ reveals Himself to someone and the test of whether that is Christ would be what the Bible says.
You missed the point. Illiterate means they couldn’t read but I said either read or heard the message. My point still applies if they had heard the correct message.

Well spotted th1b.taylor. It is quite likely that the discussion was to be indirectly entirely about homosexuality.

We know about Jesus because of the eyewitness testimony of the people who knew Him. If no book was written to record the testimony we would still have it through Tradition.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Aspen2,

We know about Jesus because of the eyewitness testimony of the people who knew Him. If no book was written to record the testimony we would still have it through Tradition.

As I said without hearing or reading Christ’s teaching one cant have faith in Christ, but the same would apply to tradition, it is needed for salvation.
So one must be careful in making statements that the Bible doesnt save, in a way it does because it tells us about how we are saved and the One through whom we are saved. Such statements encourage people to another Jesus and another gospel.

 

[dragonfly]

If no book was written to record the testimony we would still have it through Tradition.

I really hope you don't believe this, aspen. And if you do, it is high time you applied your clever head to calling the bluff of this teaching. Of course, you will have to look outside the Catholic Church at the facts of history and compare their actions with the teachings of Jesus Christ.

I suspect you have no idea what you're talking about - and have no idea how far Roman Catholic teachers will go to obscure truth. Not the whole truth, but enough of it to make what's left, ineffectual. God hates that. Why? Because He did everything He deemed necessary, to make faith in Jesus Christ sufficient to save. Every deflection from, addition to, or subtraction from that central truth, is a lie.

Until the last thirty years, the English and other language Bible translations declared the word of God clearly enough for every generation to find salvation - who had access to a Bible, or who were brought in on the preaching of truth - but now, thanks to ancient interference from those who desire to withhold truth, Bibles are varying more and more - enough to keep souls from finding salvation, apart from sound preaching.

If the 'Tradition' you espouse is based on fallacies, faith in it won't save your soul. How are you going to know the difference?

 

[aspen]

I really hope you don't believe this, aspen. And if you do, it is high time you applied your clever head to calling the bluff of this teaching. Of course, you will have to look outside the Catholic Church at the facts of history and compare their actions with the teachings of Jesus Christ.

I spent two years studying church history and it led me from Protestantism to Catholicism. I have even taught church history at a Protestant University.

I suspect you have no idea what you're talking about - and have no idea how far Roman Catholic teachers will go to obscure truth.

Boy, thanks for the vote of confidence. As a Protestant, all I knew about Church History was that Jesus was born, died, rose again and then there was this guy named Luther....

It was through the Catholic Church and Catholic authors that I learned about the 1500 year period in between.

Not the whole truth, but enough of it to make what's left, ineffectual.

Really? So it doesn't matter that Protestantism borrowed the doctrine of the Trinity and the Incarnation or the canon of scripture, which dictated their sole means of authority....? All of these things ideas are now 'ineffectual' without Luther/Calvin/etc?

God hates that. Why? Because He did everything He deemed necessary, to make faith in Jesus Christ sufficient to save. Every deflection from, addition to, or subtraction from that central truth, is a lie.

Catholics and Protestants agree that salvation comes from God's Grace.

Until the last thirty years, the English and other language Bible translations declared the word of God clearly enough for every generation to find salvation - who had access to a Bible, or who were brought in on the preaching of truth - but now, thanks to ancient interference from those who desire to withhold truth, Bibles are varying more and more - enough to keep souls from finding salvation, apart from sound preaching.

Sounds like a conspiracy! You surely do not blame that on Catholicism do you?

If the 'Tradition' you espouse is based on fallacies, faith in it won't save your soul. How are you going to know the difference?

My faith is in Jesus Christ.

Aspen2,

As I said without hearing or reading Christ’s teaching one cant have faith in Christ, but the same would apply to tradition, it is needed for salvation.
So one must be careful in making statements that the Bible doesnt save, in a way it does because it tells us about how we are saved and the One through whom we are saved. Such statements encourage people to another Jesus and another gospel.

Really? I think it focuses people's attention on Jesus.

 

[brightmorningstar]

Aspen2,

Really? I think it focuses people's attention on Jesus.

It does where it is based on scripture and sound doctrine. But you were downplaying scripture and sound doctrine which is crucial

 

[aspen]

Aspen2,
It does where it is based on scripture and sound doctrine. But you were downplaying scripture and sound doctrine which is crucial

So you are equating the Bible with God? I see you are admitting your erroneous belief that the Bible died for our sins on the cross - finally we are getting somewhere!

 

[brightmorningstar]

Aspen2, ​

So you are equating the Bible with God?

in so much as the Bible is His testimony.

I see you are admitting your erroneous belief that the Bible died for our sins on the cross - finally we are getting somewhere!

I see I corrected you already on that. The Bible is the testimony of the one who died for our sins on the cross. Jesus Christ.
Is English not your first language?
The danger and warning by Christ in His NT teaching is where one thinks they know Jesus but have not tested against the scripture to make sure it is. Downplaying the importance of His testimony and sound doctrine lets Satan, who masquerades as light, give another jesus and another gospsl as though it is Jesus.