I was just wondering this the other day. Is there any free will in heaven? Are we secure once we're there or can we get kicked out?I couldn't find any scripture on it.
Free Will in Heaven
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I'm pretty sure that there will be free will. Look at the angels, they're at the throne seat of God, and they too have free will. I believe that when we'll be surrounded by the glory of God, we won't want to do anything but worship Him.
Agree with Wakka, but think we will be able to much more than stand around singing in robes, we will be free indeed!
(AlphabetSally;56041)
Lucifer was in Heaven and look what his free will did for him. :naughty:
Yea, it lead him to the second death. Which is the death of one's soul. (Lucifer 14:12-15, Ezekiel 28:18-19, Revelation 20:14)
Lucifer was in Heaven and look what his free will did for him. :naughty:
Yea, it lead him to the second death. Which is the death of one's soul. (Lucifer 14:12-15, Ezekiel 28:18-19, Revelation 20:14)
(Wakka;55826)
I'm pretty sure that there will be free will. Look at the angels, they're at the throne seat of God, and they too have free will. I believe that when we'll be surrounded by the glory of God, we won't want to do anything but worship Him.
(AlphabetSally;56041)
Lucifer was in Heaven and look what his free will did for him. :naughty:
I have a hard time reconciling these two statements logically. If Lucifer was in the presence of God and worshipped Him, and yet he still chose to rebel, then how can one say that "we won't want to do anything but worship Him"? These seem to contradict each other...It looks to me like either a) we don't have free will in heaven anymore, but our place is secure; or
we still have free will but we have the possibility of getting kicked out like Lucifer did...
I'm pretty sure that there will be free will. Look at the angels, they're at the throne seat of God, and they too have free will. I believe that when we'll be surrounded by the glory of God, we won't want to do anything but worship Him.
(AlphabetSally;56041)
Lucifer was in Heaven and look what his free will did for him. :naughty:
I have a hard time reconciling these two statements logically. If Lucifer was in the presence of God and worshipped Him, and yet he still chose to rebel, then how can one say that "we won't want to do anything but worship Him"? These seem to contradict each other...It looks to me like either a) we don't have free will in heaven anymore, but our place is secure; or
(jeffhughes;45047)
(AlaphabetSally;56041)
(Wakka;55826)
I'm pretty sure that there will be free will. Look at the angels, they're at the throne seat of God, and they too have free will. I believe that when we'll be surrounded by the glory of God, we won't want to do anything but worship Him.
Lucifer was in Heaven and look what his free will did for him. :naughty:I have a hard time reconciling these two statements logically. If Lucifer was in the presence of God and worshipped Him, and yet he still chose to rebel, then how can one say that "we won't want to do anything but worship Him"? These seem to contradict each other...It looks to me like either a) we don't have free will in heaven anymore, but our place is secure; or
we still have free will but we have the possibility of getting kicked out like Lucifer did...Lucifer (also called Satan) first started good. Then later he chose to be evil. So in short, he once worship Father, but now he wants to be God. (II Thessalonians 2:4)He was found perfect before iniquity found him. (Ezekiel 28:15)After the second death, which is the death of the soul (Revelation 20:14) there will be a "new" Heaven and a "new" Earth which is called our third and FINAL Earth and it will be perfect and no sin.
(AlaphabetSally;56041)
(Wakka;55826)
I'm pretty sure that there will be free will. Look at the angels, they're at the throne seat of God, and they too have free will. I believe that when we'll be surrounded by the glory of God, we won't want to do anything but worship Him.
Lucifer was in Heaven and look what his free will did for him. :naughty:I have a hard time reconciling these two statements logically. If Lucifer was in the presence of God and worshipped Him, and yet he still chose to rebel, then how can one say that "we won't want to do anything but worship Him"? These seem to contradict each other...It looks to me like either a) we don't have free will in heaven anymore, but our place is secure; or
(thesuperjag;56050)
Lucifer (also called Satan) first started good. Then later he chose to be evil. So in short, he once worship Father, but now he wants to be God. (II Thessalonians 2:4)He was found perfect before iniquity found him. (Ezekiel 28:15)After the second death, which is the death of the soul (Revelation 20:14) there will be a "new" Heaven and a "new" Earth which is called our third and FINAL Earth and it will be perfect and no sin.
The fact that it is perfect and with no sin, however, somewhat implies that there will be no free will. If we have free will, then there is always the choice to sin - just like Lucifer chose to be evil. I don't know whether you're arguing for or against free will in Heaven, but I don't think that we can logically have a perfect and sinless Heaven with free will. The two concepts simply don't work once you consider the story Lucifer.Of course, if you say that there's no free will in Heaven, the next question that comes is, "Well then why didn't God just skip this whole first step of having us on Earth with free will and just create us without free will in the first place?" So that's what puzzles me...
Lucifer (also called Satan) first started good. Then later he chose to be evil. So in short, he once worship Father, but now he wants to be God. (II Thessalonians 2:4)He was found perfect before iniquity found him. (Ezekiel 28:15)After the second death, which is the death of the soul (Revelation 20:14) there will be a "new" Heaven and a "new" Earth which is called our third and FINAL Earth and it will be perfect and no sin.
The fact that it is perfect and with no sin, however, somewhat implies that there will be no free will. If we have free will, then there is always the choice to sin - just like Lucifer chose to be evil. I don't know whether you're arguing for or against free will in Heaven, but I don't think that we can logically have a perfect and sinless Heaven with free will. The two concepts simply don't work once you consider the story Lucifer.Of course, if you say that there's no free will in Heaven, the next question that comes is, "Well then why didn't God just skip this whole first step of having us on Earth with free will and just create us without free will in the first place?" So that's what puzzles me...
(jeffhughes;56052)
(thesuperjag;56050)
Lucifer (also called Satan) first started good. Then later he chose to be evil. So in short, he once worship Father, but now he wants to be God. (II Thessalonians 2:4)He was found perfect before iniquity found him. (Ezekiel 28:15)After the second death, which is the death of the soul (Revelation 20:14) there will be a "new" Heaven and a "new" Earth which is called our third and FINAL Earth and it will be perfect and no sin.
The fact that it is perfect and with no sin, however, somewhat implies that there will be no free will. If we have free will, then there is always the choice to sin - just like Lucifer chose to be evil. I don't know whether you're arguing for or against free will in Heaven, but I don't think that we can logically have a perfect and sinless Heaven with free will. The two concepts simply don't work once you consider the story Lucifer.Of course, if you say that there's no free will in Heaven, the next question that comes is, "Well then why didn't God just skip this whole first step of having us on Earth with free will and just create us without free will in the first place?" So that's what puzzles me...Why would a loving Father want us to be robots? It's not exactly love at all. There's free will to love and to hate... Lucifer had free will as well in the First Earth Age. We were created in there. God put us in our flesh (human) body in this age (Second Earth Age) after Lucy took 1/3 of His children to rebel. In this age, betwwen Christ or Antichrist (Satan)So I believe we will still have free will in the Last Age. Just no sin.
(thesuperjag;56050)
Lucifer (also called Satan) first started good. Then later he chose to be evil. So in short, he once worship Father, but now he wants to be God. (II Thessalonians 2:4)He was found perfect before iniquity found him. (Ezekiel 28:15)After the second death, which is the death of the soul (Revelation 20:14) there will be a "new" Heaven and a "new" Earth which is called our third and FINAL Earth and it will be perfect and no sin.
The fact that it is perfect and with no sin, however, somewhat implies that there will be no free will. If we have free will, then there is always the choice to sin - just like Lucifer chose to be evil. I don't know whether you're arguing for or against free will in Heaven, but I don't think that we can logically have a perfect and sinless Heaven with free will. The two concepts simply don't work once you consider the story Lucifer.Of course, if you say that there's no free will in Heaven, the next question that comes is, "Well then why didn't God just skip this whole first step of having us on Earth with free will and just create us without free will in the first place?" So that's what puzzles me...Why would a loving Father want us to be robots? It's not exactly love at all. There's free will to love and to hate... Lucifer had free will as well in the First Earth Age. We were created in there. God put us in our flesh (human) body in this age (Second Earth Age) after Lucy took 1/3 of His children to rebel. In this age, betwwen Christ or Antichrist (Satan)So I believe we will still have free will in the Last Age. Just no sin.
verzanumi24
Advanced Member
(eternalarcadia;55592)
I was just wondering this the other day. Is there any free will in heaven? Are we secure once we're there or can we get kicked out?I couldn't find any scripture on it.
I'm sorry but I had to chuckle a little when I read your post. Let me answer your question by asking you a question. Do you believe that God has free will? Do you believe that God can get kicked out of heaven? If you are able to answer those questions correctly, then you have your answer.
I was just wondering this the other day. Is there any free will in heaven? Are we secure once we're there or can we get kicked out?I couldn't find any scripture on it.
I'm sorry but I had to chuckle a little when I read your post. Let me answer your question by asking you a question. Do you believe that God has free will? Do you believe that God can get kicked out of heaven? If you are able to answer those questions correctly, then you have your answer.
verzanumi24
Advanced Member
(waquinas;55832)
Agree with Wakka, but think we will be able to much more than stand around singing in robes, we will be free indeed!
Yes you are so correct; it seems as if some Christians believe that all we will do is nothing but stand around for all eternality and sings songs of praise to God (I am not saying that sing songs to God is wrong)....that would be boring after a while.There's infinitely more to our purpose than that. Praising God, at least for glorified human beings is more than singing songs to God. In a nut shell, a part of bring praise to God is that we will expand His kingdom; the kingdom of God has started with us, here on the earth. But it will not stop here, there is work to be done, planets and galaxies needs to be reformed and reshaped, life must be created on them. The entire physical universe and the life forms that we along with Jesus will create needs to see God’s work through us.
Agree with Wakka, but think we will be able to much more than stand around singing in robes, we will be free indeed!
Yes you are so correct; it seems as if some Christians believe that all we will do is nothing but stand around for all eternality and sings songs of praise to God (I am not saying that sing songs to God is wrong)....that would be boring after a while.There's infinitely more to our purpose than that. Praising God, at least for glorified human beings is more than singing songs to God. In a nut shell, a part of bring praise to God is that we will expand His kingdom; the kingdom of God has started with us, here on the earth. But it will not stop here, there is work to be done, planets and galaxies needs to be reformed and reshaped, life must be created on them. The entire physical universe and the life forms that we along with Jesus will create needs to see God’s work through us.
(verzanumi24;56076)
I'm sorry but I had to chuckle a little when I read your post. Let me answer your question by asking you a question. Do you believe that God has free will? Do you believe that God can get kicked out of heaven? If you are able to answer those questions correctly, then you have your answer.
yes, God can do what he pleases. and no God cant get kicked out of heaven he made it and rules over it. how does that answer if we can get kicked out or not. i suppose its possible to have free will and be perfect... i hope
I'm sorry but I had to chuckle a little when I read your post. Let me answer your question by asking you a question. Do you believe that God has free will? Do you believe that God can get kicked out of heaven? If you are able to answer those questions correctly, then you have your answer.
yes, God can do what he pleases. and no God cant get kicked out of heaven he made it and rules over it. how does that answer if we can get kicked out or not. i suppose its possible to have free will and be perfect... i hope
tim_from_pa
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(eternalarcadia;55592)
I was just wondering this the other day. Is there any free will in heaven? Are we secure once we're there or can we get kicked out?I couldn't find any scripture on it.
No, we will never get kicked out, otherwise that would be eternal death. Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."So, we know that (by our free will) will follow him, and 2) we will NEVER perish. I tend to deify the believer more than some are comfortable with, but if we are in Christ, then we in effect become Christ as we are one in mind and will. This is why we judge even angels in which only God is higher. In other words, we have the very authority of God, but there is only one God (YHWH) which is the source of power behind this. God is triune in nature just as man is created in that same nature. The bible teaches we will be "like Him" and as they would say colloquially, "Clones"
I was just wondering this the other day. Is there any free will in heaven? Are we secure once we're there or can we get kicked out?I couldn't find any scripture on it.
No, we will never get kicked out, otherwise that would be eternal death. Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."So, we know that (by our free will) will follow him, and 2) we will NEVER perish. I tend to deify the believer more than some are comfortable with, but if we are in Christ, then we in effect become Christ as we are one in mind and will. This is why we judge even angels in which only God is higher. In other words, we have the very authority of God, but there is only one God (YHWH) which is the source of power behind this. God is triune in nature just as man is created in that same nature. The bible teaches we will be "like Him" and as they would say colloquially, "Clones"
verzanumi24
Advanced Member
(eternalarcadia;56112)
yes, God can do what he pleases. and no God cant get kicked out of heaven he made it and rules over it. how does that answer if we can get kicked out or not. i suppose its possible to have free will and be perfect... i hope
Because glorified saints will also have the very nature of God and will be as perfect as God is; even now we are partakers of the divine nature. When you are as God is, it means that everything that you do is always right so you will not need God to tell you what is right from what is not.....so even glorified children of God will do whatever they want.God owns everything, but everything that God created and owns will also belong to the children of God.
yes, God can do what he pleases. and no God cant get kicked out of heaven he made it and rules over it. how does that answer if we can get kicked out or not. i suppose its possible to have free will and be perfect... i hope
Because glorified saints will also have the very nature of God and will be as perfect as God is; even now we are partakers of the divine nature. When you are as God is, it means that everything that you do is always right so you will not need God to tell you what is right from what is not.....so even glorified children of God will do whatever they want.God owns everything, but everything that God created and owns will also belong to the children of God.
(tim_from_pa;56114)
I tend to deify the believer more than some are comfortable with, but if we are in Christ, then we in effect become Christ as we are one in mind and will. This is why we judge even angels in which only God is higher. In other words, we have the very authority of God, but there is only one God (YHWH) which is the source of power behind this. God is triune in nature just as man is created in that same nature. The bible teaches we will be "like Him" and as they would say colloquially, "Clones"
My question would be, then, why didn't God just create us like "clones" to begin with? Why do we have to go through all this earth stuff and mortal life stuff and end up sending at least a large chunk of people to hell for it? I mean, if we had been created as "clones" of God to begin with where our free will would never result in sin, we would have skipped over all this fallen world crap that we're getting put through now...
I tend to deify the believer more than some are comfortable with, but if we are in Christ, then we in effect become Christ as we are one in mind and will. This is why we judge even angels in which only God is higher. In other words, we have the very authority of God, but there is only one God (YHWH) which is the source of power behind this. God is triune in nature just as man is created in that same nature. The bible teaches we will be "like Him" and as they would say colloquially, "Clones"
My question would be, then, why didn't God just create us like "clones" to begin with? Why do we have to go through all this earth stuff and mortal life stuff and end up sending at least a large chunk of people to hell for it? I mean, if we had been created as "clones" of God to begin with where our free will would never result in sin, we would have skipped over all this fallen world crap that we're getting put through now...
(jeffhughes;56138)
(tim_from_pa;56114)
I tend to deify the believer more than some are comfortable with, but if we are in Christ, then we in effect become Christ as we are one in mind and will. This is why we judge even angels in which only God is higher. In other words, we have the very authority of God, but there is only one God (YHWH) which is the source of power behind this. God is triune in nature just as man is created in that same nature. The bible teaches we will be "like Him" and as they would say colloquially, "Clones"
My question would be, then, why didn't God just create us like "clones" to begin with? Why do we have to go through all this earth stuff and mortal life stuff and end up sending at least a large chunk of people to hell for it? I mean, if we had been created as "clones" of God to begin with where our free will would never result in sin, we would have skipped over all this fallen world crap that we're getting put through now...All I will say this is, nobody is in Hell yet. The soul of ALL returns back to the Father whom gave it. And the dust (flesh body) shall return to the ground. (Ecclesiastes 12:7, II Corinthians 5:8)
(tim_from_pa;56114)
I tend to deify the believer more than some are comfortable with, but if we are in Christ, then we in effect become Christ as we are one in mind and will. This is why we judge even angels in which only God is higher. In other words, we have the very authority of God, but there is only one God (YHWH) which is the source of power behind this. God is triune in nature just as man is created in that same nature. The bible teaches we will be "like Him" and as they would say colloquially, "Clones"
My question would be, then, why didn't God just create us like "clones" to begin with? Why do we have to go through all this earth stuff and mortal life stuff and end up sending at least a large chunk of people to hell for it? I mean, if we had been created as "clones" of God to begin with where our free will would never result in sin, we would have skipped over all this fallen world crap that we're getting put through now...All I will say this is, nobody is in Hell yet. The soul of ALL returns back to the Father whom gave it. And the dust (flesh body) shall return to the ground. (Ecclesiastes 12:7, II Corinthians 5:8)
tim_from_pa
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My question would be, then, why didn't God just create us like "clones" to begin with? Why do we have to go through all this earth stuff and mortal life stuff and end up sending at least a large chunk of people to hell for it? I mean, if we had been created as "clones" of God to begin with where our free will would never result in sin, we would have skipped over all this fallen world crap that we're getting put through now...
Because God wants offspring that will trust in Him, not because they are made that way and have no choice. God won nothing if he just makes robots.I think the mindset in the bible is the same as American way of thinking. WE have a choice and a responsibility. We can blow it or reach greater heights. The rest of the nations would rather do the opposite, and I'm sure would just love a God that made everything peaches and cream. One big mass of mediocrity.Have to say one thing about God---- there's no midpoint with Him---- it's all or nothing. That's truly a passionate God I can accept.
Because God wants offspring that will trust in Him, not because they are made that way and have no choice. God won nothing if he just makes robots.I think the mindset in the bible is the same as American way of thinking. WE have a choice and a responsibility. We can blow it or reach greater heights. The rest of the nations would rather do the opposite, and I'm sure would just love a God that made everything peaches and cream. One big mass of mediocrity.Have to say one thing about God---- there's no midpoint with Him---- it's all or nothing. That's truly a passionate God I can accept.
(tim_from_pa;56142)
Because God wants offspring that will trust in Him, not because they are made that way and have no choice. God won nothing if he just makes robots.I think the mindset in the bible is the same as American way of thinking. WE have a choice and a responsibility. We can blow it or reach greater heights. The rest of the nations would rather do the opposite, and I'm sure would just love a God that made everything peaches and cream. One big mass of mediocrity.Have to say one thing about God---- there's no midpoint with Him---- it's all or nothing. That's truly a passionate God I can accept.
But Tim, you were, if I read what you said correctly, trying to say that "clones" of God, to use the term, are essentially people who retain free will yet are like Christ to the point where they will never choose to sin. But then I asked you why He didn't just create us like that in the first place, and you point to how God wants us to have free will instead of being robots. This is a contradiction in terms.Right now, we are humans with free will, and our flesh causes us to sin.You are saying that in heaven, we will still have free will, but we will be like Christ and so we will just never choose to sin.My question is, if we can still have free will and yet never sin, why did God create us like we are now in the first place? Adam cannot have been a "clone" as you put it, since if he was, then he would never have sinned. So therefore, he must have been "neutral," able to either obey or disobey. But if we are eventually going to become like Christ where we will never sin but always just choose to obey Him, then why could He not have done that in the first place, saved Himself and us a whole lot of heartache, pain, and death, and created us with free will yet never choosing to sin because of our "Christ-likeness"?
Because God wants offspring that will trust in Him, not because they are made that way and have no choice. God won nothing if he just makes robots.I think the mindset in the bible is the same as American way of thinking. WE have a choice and a responsibility. We can blow it or reach greater heights. The rest of the nations would rather do the opposite, and I'm sure would just love a God that made everything peaches and cream. One big mass of mediocrity.Have to say one thing about God---- there's no midpoint with Him---- it's all or nothing. That's truly a passionate God I can accept.
But Tim, you were, if I read what you said correctly, trying to say that "clones" of God, to use the term, are essentially people who retain free will yet are like Christ to the point where they will never choose to sin. But then I asked you why He didn't just create us like that in the first place, and you point to how God wants us to have free will instead of being robots. This is a contradiction in terms.Right now, we are humans with free will, and our flesh causes us to sin.You are saying that in heaven, we will still have free will, but we will be like Christ and so we will just never choose to sin.My question is, if we can still have free will and yet never sin, why did God create us like we are now in the first place? Adam cannot have been a "clone" as you put it, since if he was, then he would never have sinned. So therefore, he must have been "neutral," able to either obey or disobey. But if we are eventually going to become like Christ where we will never sin but always just choose to obey Him, then why could He not have done that in the first place, saved Himself and us a whole lot of heartache, pain, and death, and created us with free will yet never choosing to sin because of our "Christ-likeness"?
tim_from_pa
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Jeff---Let's back up a bit. While we do have free will here, the starting point of this mess that we are in is with Adam. The main choice was placed on him. God wanted Adam to take that tree of Life instead of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. The former represents life by God's Spirit, the latter makes man the judge (as in the Law) and doing things from his perspective. Therefore, we chose to sin just like Adam and have that free choice also.God wanted us to be like him and had Adam taken of the right tree, he'd have been like God and the offspring (however that would come about considering I believe Adam would have then been a glorified being) would be like Adam, and thus sinless. But God wants us to choose Him over ourselves. Had he just made Adam glorified from the beginning, then there would be no testing.Yes, we have free choice in heaven, but it was with the understanding that we had in this life a choice between sin and righteousness. Making a clone right off the bat takes that all away.
Free Will in Heaven? Yes, I believe we will have free will, and no, I do not think we can ever be ejected from Heaven because of sinning due to the use of our free will. Why is that? First, God's omniscience permits Him to know what truly lies within our hearts and minds. Second, we will get there because of our belief in Jesus as the Son of God, and when we do get there we will actually see Him. What will that sight do to our belief? Thirdly, we will be given new, torally pure spiritual bodies, which come without lust, envy, greed, or any of the other vices of the flesh that we must contend with here in this life. Those bodies will be all-holy in all ways, and out most basic desire will be to praise God for our salvation and eternal life.Rank Stranger
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