Freedom To Sin?

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neophyte

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2 Cor. 11:2-3 – Paul writes, “I betrothed you to Christ, but I am afraid that your thoughts will be led astray from a devotion to Christ.” The Corinthians already had a sincere devotion to Christ, for Paul wrote to them earlier in the letter, “you stand firm in your faith.” (2 Cor. 1:24). They are already “saved.” But Paul warns them that they can fall away just like Eve fell away (and, remember, Eve was created without sin!) This is another verse that is devastating to the belief of “once saved, always saved.”


Eph. 2:8-9 – Paul teaches us that faith is the root of justification, and that faith excludes “works of law.” But Paul does not teach that faith excludes other kinds of works, as we will see below. The verse also does not say we are justified by “faith alone.” It only indicates that faith comes first. This, of course, must be true, because those who do works outside of faith are in a system of debt, not of grace (more on that later). But faith alone does not justify. A man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. James 2:24.
Eph. 2:8-9 - we have been saved by grace through faith, not because of "works," lest anyone boast. This much-quoted verse by Protestants refers to the "works" of the Mosaic law or any works performed in a legalistic sense, where we view God as a debtor to us, and not as our heavenly Father. Paul is teaching us that, with the coming of Christ, we are now saved by grace through faith, not by Mosaic or legal works.

This is why Paul refers to “works of ourselves” and so we can’t “boast.” Paul says the same thing about “works” Rom. 4:2,4 – if Abraham was justified by “works,” he would have something to “boast” about. Here, the wages are not counted as grace, but debt. “Boasting” does not attribute works to God, but to oneself. But good works done in faith are necessary for justification (James 2:24, etc.) because we receive rewards by grace, not by legal obligation, and we attribute these works to God, not ourselves.
Eph. 2:10 - in quoting Ephesians 2:8-9, Protestants invariably ignore the very next verse. Right after Paul's teaching on "works" referring to Mosaic law, Paul says we are created in Christ for "good works" - a clear distinction between "works of law" (Mosaic law/legal payment) and "good works" (law of Christ/reward of grace).

Eph. 2:11-16 - this section further explains Paul's reference to "works" which relates to following the Jewish legal ordinances.

Eph. 3:17 - Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith, but we also must be rooted and grounded in love.

2Cor11:15-our end will correspond to our deeds. Our works are necessary to both our justification and salvation.

John 5:24 - note that " eternal life " here means sanctifying grace [ the life of God within us ] We can choose to fall from His graces.
 

Webers_Home

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John 5:24 - note that " eternal life " here means sanctifying grace

I'm going to plug that definition into a few key verses so you can see for
yourself just how ridiculous a theory it really is.

†. John 3:16 . . For God so loved the world that He donated His only
begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have
sanctifying grace.

†. John 3:36 . . He who believes in the Son has sanctifying grace; and he
who does not believe the Son shall not see grace, but the wrath of God
abides on him.

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you: those who listen to my message, and believe
in God who sent me, have sanctifying grace. They will never be condemned
for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

†. John 10:27-28 . . My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they
follow me. And I give them sanctifying grace, and they shall never perish.

†. John 17:2-4 . .You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should
give sanctifying grace to as many as You have given Him. And this is
sanctifying grace, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus
Christ whom You have sent.

†. Rom 6:23 . . For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is
sanctifying grace

†. 1John 1:1-2 . .That which was from the beginning, which we have heard,
which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our
hands have handled, concerning the Word of grace --the grace was
manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that
sanctifying grace which was with the Father and was manifested to us.

†. 1John 5:11-12 . .This is the testimony: God has given us sanctifying
grace, and this grace is in His son. He who has The Son has this grace; he
who does not have this grace, does not have God's son.

†. 1John 5:13 . .These things I have written to you who believe in the name
of the Son of God, that you may know that you have sanctifying grace.

†. Rev 20:15 . . And whosoever was not found written in the book of grace
was cast into the lake of fire.

You see; this is what happens when people take it upon themselves to
manufacture unauthorized synonyms for key words in the Bible.


We can choose to fall from His graces.

Here's what your definition looks like in reverse.

†. Gal 5:4 . . Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are
justified by the law; you are fallen from eternal life.

Maybe you can choose to fall from grace, but no one can circumvent the
Lord's testimony and choose to be condemned for their sins after once
they've passed from death into life.

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you: those who listen to my message, and believe
in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for
their sins, but they have already passed from death into life

Webster's defines "never" as: at no time, not in any degree, nor under any
condition.

Cliff
/
 

WhiteKnuckle

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Some sins I'm tempted by because, they're pleasurable. Some sins I'm tempted by because of some other reason, either fear of something or greed. Some sins I'm not even interested in because they're just stooopid or just down right disgusting.

Either way, there are sins that I "like" and it SEEMS in my mind it would be great if they weren't sins. Sometimes I think it would be great if we could do any thing we want.

At the end of the day though, the things I do end up doing that are sins make me feel bad. I feel sorry for doing them. The worse thing for me is feeling guilty for even being tempted or liking things that are sinful, even if I didn't do them. Very strange because temptation isn't a sin. The reality of this is something more akin to not wanting to like those things. I don't want to be lustfull or hatefull or greedy or which ever else is out there.

I don't think the new nature of man means, "You are no longer tempted" or "You are no longer interested in sinfull things." No, the new nature of man is where we realize that these things are wrong, even if we don't understand why, they're still sins. We don't want to want those things, we don't want to be tempted. We want to be pure and holy and sinless.

The very fact that I'm tempted reminds me of how human I am.
 

neophyte

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.


I'm going to plug that definition into a few key verses so you can see for
yourself just how ridiculous a theory it really is.

†. John 3:16 . . For God so loved the world that He donated His only
begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have
sanctifying grace.

†. John 3:36 . . He who believes in the Son has sanctifying grace; and he
who does not believe the Son shall not see grace, but the wrath of God
abides on him.

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you: those who listen to my message, and believe
in God who sent me, have sanctifying grace. They will never be condemned
for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.

†. John 10:27-28 . . My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they
follow me. And I give them sanctifying grace, and they shall never perish.

†. John 17:2-4 . .You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should
give sanctifying grace to as many as You have given Him. And this is
sanctifying grace, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus
Christ whom You have sent.

†. Rom 6:23 . . For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is
sanctifying grace

†. 1John 1:1-2 . .That which was from the beginning, which we have heard,
which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our
hands have handled, concerning the Word of grace --the grace was
manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that
sanctifying grace which was with the Father and was manifested to us.

†. 1John 5:11-12 . .This is the testimony: God has given us sanctifying
grace, and this grace is in His son. He who has The Son has this grace; he
who does not have this grace, does not have God's son.

†. 1John 5:13 . .These things I have written to you who believe in the name
of the Son of God, that you may know that you have sanctifying grace.

†. Rev 20:15 . . And whosoever was not found written in the book of grace
was cast into the lake of fire.

You see; this is what happens when people take it upon themselves to
manufacture unauthorized synonyms for key words in the Bible.




Here's what your definition looks like in reverse.

†. Gal 5:4 . . Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are
justified by the law; you are fallen from eternal life.

Maybe you can choose to fall from grace, but no one can circumvent the
Lord's testimony and choose to be condemned for their sins after once
they've passed from death into life.

†. John 5:24 . . I assure you: those who listen to my message, and believe
in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for
their sins, but they have already passed from death into life

Webster's defines "never" as: at no time, not in any degree, nor under any
condition.

Cliff
/

Nice try Cliff but you haven't a clue if you follow any one of those thousands of conflicting Protestant Bible interpretation, there is only "One" Interpretation Cliff, and it certainly isn't your's.

2 Tim. 4:8 – Protestants often use this verse to prove “once saved, always saved,” even in the face of all Paul wrote about the possibility of losing his salvation (including his). But it is only at end of Saint Paul's life that he has a moral certitude of salvation. This is after a lifetime of perseverance. As faithful believers in Christ, we indeed have a moral certitude of our salvation, but this is different from being certain of our salvation. We must persevere throughout our lives, and can choose to fall away.
Also, Catholics have more assurance of salvation that those who espouse “once saved, always saved.” This is because the only distinction between a true Christian and a superficial Christian is that the superficial Christian will not persevere to the end – but this is something a Christian cannot know during his life, and this necessarily imposes uncertainty upon him until the end. For Catholics, we know that salvation is ours to lose. For “once saved, always saved” Protestants, they don’t even know whether it is theirs to begin with.

I only will give a snippet of many verses that support losing our salvation-

Gal. 5:4 the "law ' is of no use. The new law is the law of Christ, which is faith working through love.

Rom.6: 23- This is why Paul says the "wages" of sin is death. Eternal life is a free gift from God. We cannot obligate God to pay for our works; otherwise , we are in a system of law, not a system of grace.

John 10:27-28---- When Jesus says: " no one shall snatch them out of my hands ". He doesn't mean we can't leave His hands. We can choose to walk away from Him[ free will ]
 

Webers_Home

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John 10:27-28---- When Jesus says: " no one shall snatch them out of my
hands ". He doesn't mean we can't leave His hands. We can choose to walk
away from Him (free will)

Your interpretation of the Lord's statements at John 10:27-29 casts a vote of
no-confidence in his competence as a good shepherd. By doing so; you are
insinuating that God's son is a person of questionable integrity who can't be
trusted to tell the truth.

The Lord testifies that his sheep shall never perish; while you insist there's a
possibility they can. Do you seriously expect people to take your word over his?

Cliff
/
 

Watchwithme

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This is one of those Thread questions that temps believers to try to sound "spiritual".
I'll not serve the flesh on behalf of this temptation...
But rather i'll try to be "exposed" so that you might in your heart also..
Im a minister, but im an honest one, and i dont play the role.
I am what i am, and the Grace of God has been better to me then most, because i have to have extra help.
He provides it.
He's faithful, even when im not.

The reason people sin, the reason Christians sin, and the reason i do, is the same reason you do.
Because we like it.
We like the way it feels.
We like the way it gives the flesh that AHHHHHHHHHHHHH feeling of satisfaction.
Listen, if sin was not fun, if it was not extremely satisfying for the moment, then who would be doing it?
The fact is......Sin is extremely rewarding~gratifying to the flesh, and it feels great every time.....if it didnt you would not be confessing
the same sin to God every day, or every other day, or ...........you get the message.

What ive noticed is, that prior to my conversion many years ago, my sin was not as fulfilling or as tempting as it is now.
That is to say that sin became to me, more pleasurable after i was converted, then before i was converted.
Ive had to deal with a stronger urge to sin SINCE i was saved, then before i was saved
Ive committed some of my worst sins after i was saved, and i knew i was doing them before i did them.
They were not mistakes, ...many of my sins......they were carnal projects that sometimes i planned.

Ive also noticed i have seasons of time, where sin does not interest me very much, and then i'll have seasons of time where its as if
all i think about is my temptation.
And prayer and bible reading helps, yes, during these "intense" times.
Sometimes i resist and sometimes i fall.
Over the years, i fall less, and i resist more often ....
One thing ive learned is that sin is the power to captivate to lust which lives in the flesh nature DNA of us all, and its the SIN that commits the sin and this is not me......but its me who gives into its demands.
"Me" is the part that is born again, who has died with Christ, who is seated in heavenly places, and who has an internal war with this sin in me that wants to sin.
Paul had the same problem, and even said that it was not he who sinned but sin in him that did it.
He was not justifying his sinning, nor am i.
Im just being real., and God is big enough, and caring enough, and unconditionally loving enough to call me HIS SON.

I have no words to express my thanx to my God who is so good to me.
He's just so good.

And if you dont know God, and if you are wondering if he could love someone like you....
Well, he loved someone like me, and took me,.... so, i can promise you, he will take you.
Jesus died to prove God's love for you.
You take his Son, and he'll take you, and he'll never let you go.........ever.

And if you are away from him, and you dont feel him anymore..
If you are thinking that you cant have back that precious love you use to have for Jesus and God that you threw away..., then let me tell you....you can.
You CAN.
God never left you.......he is still right there, on your side, with arms open wide.
Come home.
Come...........home....
You'll be so glad you did.


be blessed..


K

That's really cool, thanks for your honesty. I committed worse sins after I was saved, these are the ones Satan just loves to remind me of too.

If I could just pull you up on one thing I don't agree with. although I know you mean well -

"And if you dont know God, and if you are wondering if he could love someone like you....
Well, he loved someone like me, and took me,.... so, i can promise you, he will take you."

You actually have nothing to do with whether Christ will love someone or not. Nor can you promise that because God loves you, He will love someone else.
 

Episkopos

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Our sins ARE greater after we come to the Lord. God uses even our sins to try teaching us that we need to follow the narrow way as well as walk into the narrow door.

Strait is the gate...yes....but also...narrow is the way!!!

What we don't see in our time is the brethren living the narrow way. We see more and more claiming to have walked through the narrow gate saying that they are saved and such. Then they excuse their poor performance ...after all their lifestyle remains unchanged...remaining conformed to this world. They then claim to be "saved sinners" and other unbiblical things.

The truth is that we are saved for a purpose...to show forth kingdom life TOGETHER while we live in this world. We are no longer to be our own.....our bodies are His...our time is His. Jesus said ...where 2 or 3 are gathered there He is. Yet "believers" ignore this and continue to live life as individuals. They interpret this saying as an admonition to treat their walk as any other religion...but with far less devotion. Is Christianity really just an easy fix for the human condition? Are we to walk just like the world...but claim salvation because of our opinions, experience or saving "knowledge" (gnosis) ???

Or should we bear fruit that changes the way men see the world?

Our extreme selfishness has caused us to not consider becoming slaves of Christ...we just want our freedom to do as we wish. Well....THAT is sin. Someone who is bought with the blood of Christ relinquishes ALL he has in order to be a witness to the truth. We have the completely ignored record of a community of the way in Christ in ACTS 2. The only way to be an overcomer...is by being together...gathered in HIS name. Then His presence not only fills us within but ALSO fills the air around us. It is the overflow of life that affects the world around us with the fragrance of Christ. But most will ignore this in order to fulfill their own dreams, hopes and aspirations. The gospel is merely a speed bump on the road to the American dream for almost all who profess faith in Christ.

Living in the community of the Spirit accomplishes everything we need to walk in the narrow way. We must walk though the gate as individuals...YES...but we can only walk in the way TOGETHER. It is the body...all of it...that enables us to be built up into the image of Christ.


The community of the Spirit lives constantly in the presence of God. That presence IS the witness of the truth. No need for man made evangelical programs.
 

Watchwithme

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We are free - to not sin.

T

I like that :)

Our sins ARE greater after we come to the Lord. God uses even our sins to try teaching us that we need to follow the narrow way as well as walk into the narrow door.

Strait is the gate...yes....but also...narrow is the way!!!

What we don't see in our time is the brethren living the narrow way. We see more and more claiming to have walked through the narrow gate saying that they are saved and such. Then they excuse their poor performance ...after all their lifestyle remains unchanged...remaining conformed to this world. They then claim to be "saved sinners" and other unbiblical things.

The truth is that we are saved for a purpose...to show forth kingdom life TOGETHER while we live in this world. We are no longer to be our own.....our bodies are His...our time is His. Jesus said ...where 2 or 3 are gathered there He is. Yet "believers" ignore this and continue to live life as individuals. They interpret this saying as an admonition to treat their walk as any other religion...but with far less devotion. Is Christianity really just an easy fix for the human condition? Are we to walk just like the world...but claim salvation because of our opinions, experience or saving "knowledge" (gnosis) ???

Or should we bear fruit that changes the way men see the world?

Our extreme selfishness has caused us to not consider becoming slaves of Christ...we just want our freedom to do as we wish. Well....THAT is sin. Someone who is bought with the blood of Christ relinquishes ALL he has in order to be a witness to the truth. We have the completely ignored record of a community of the way in Christ in ACTS 2. The only way to be an overcomer...is by being together...gathered in HIS name. Then His presence not only fills us within but ALSO fills the air around us. It is the overflow of life that affects the world around us with the fragrance of Christ. But most will ignore this in order to fulfill their own dreams, hopes and aspirations. The gospel is merely a speed bump on the road to the American dream for almost all who profess faith in Christ.

Living in the community of the Spirit accomplishes everything we need to walk in the narrow way. We must walk though the gate as individuals...YES...but we can only walk in the way TOGETHER. It is the body...all of it...that enables us to be built up into the image of Christ.


The community of the Spirit lives constantly in the presence of God. That presence IS the witness of the truth. No need for man made evangelical programs.

I agree with what you say. Do you see any difference between being a saved believer and a disciple?
 

aspen

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I am sure glad that God is in charge of who gets to spend eternity with Him. I cannot imagine the carnage and damnation that would occur if the decision was left to His zealous followers.
 

Foreigner

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I would also encourage you to remember that His liberal followers who condemn those fellow Christians who will not soften their scripturally supported positions on sin will also not be deciding who gets into heaven.
 

Watchwithme

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Both...but many believers will be cast out into outer darkness. There they will wander in the wilderness forever.

By believer I mean: one who is born form above through faith in the blood of Christ. AKA a saved person. What do you mean by "believers" who shall be cast out, I presume when Jesus says 'I never knew you?" I do agree that their will be many "believers" in hell, but we aught to be very clear who we think that is and how it happens so as to avoid it, this is no topic to be cryptic about, so please explain what you mean.
 

aspen

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I would also encourage you to remember that His liberal followers who condemn those fellow Christians who will not soften their scripturally supported positions on sin will also not be deciding who gets into heaven.

Slow down Foreigner - Zealots can be liberal and conservative.
 

Watchwithme

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I am sure glad that God is in charge of who gets to spend eternity with Him. I cannot imagine the carnage and damnation that would occur if the decision was left to His zealous followers.

That's a bit rich considering the Lords flock is a little flock and the rest (billions) will burn in eternal torment. God does that, not his zealous followers, the apostle Paul said l;et hose who do not believe be damned. Anyone who isn't a "zealous follower" isn't a follower. This is real not a game, people better wise up. This Chrisitian forum should be a shinning beacon of light to a lost and dining world, instead its full of false prophets spouting nonsense day in and day out. So what else is new??
 

Episkopos

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By believer I mean: one who is born form above through faith in the blood of Christ. AKA a saved person. What do you mean by "believers" who shall be cast out, I presume when Jesus says 'I never knew you?" I do agree that their will be many "believers" in hell, but we aught to be very clear who we think that is and how it happens so as to avoid it, this is no topic to be cryptic about, so please explain what you mean.

I have no prejudices about who wins and loses. The wisest way to read the bible is to assume that you are as capable as anyone else of winning or losing. The disciples response to Christ....Lord, is it I? about sums up what I think.
 

Watchwithme

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I have no prejudices about who wins and loses. The wisest way to read the bible is to assume that you are as capable as anyone else of winning or losing. The disciples response to Christ....Lord, is it I? about sums up what I think.

Vague, nebulous and vacuous. Thanks for nothing. Moving on with a heavy sigh! The disciples where not born form above at this point, and it may surprise you to know that when the disciples took up the call to follow Christ they where not seeking salvation at the time. This came much later.
 

Stan

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Who among you is a Christian who wants to sin?

Are you a child of God?

Tell us which are the evil desires you are glad of forgiveness so that now you can fulfill them.

It's OK, you have the anonimity of the internet.

Which are those cherished, special sins that you look forward to indulging for the rest of your live, knowing that you have a "free pass"?

Is that what you want?

Or do you want something different?

When you pull back the sheet, what do you see?

A straw man.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Our carnal nature, the Bible calls it flesh, ALWAYS wants to sin. The fight we endure is picking up our cross(carnal nature) and walking daily with Christ. Some of us are strong and some of us are weak, BUT, Paul tells us in 1 Cor 10:13; No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

AMEN! :D
 

Foreigner

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Slow down Foreigner - Zealots can be liberal and conservative.

-- True. But in all your posts, both as Aspen and Aspen2, I have heard you repeatedly criticize Conservative Christians......but never once a Liberal.

Perhaps it's time for a little balance.