Freewill and Choice have NOTHING to dowith Salvation

[Butch5]

“it is merely Paul explaining what happened to the Ephesians in their past”

TOTAL HOGWASH… Sorry God’s Word dictates how God’s man is saved not your bias opinion.

I already did provide evidence “in context” according to scripture not my opinion. This chapter is not speaking just to the Ephesians in the past as you assume. How clearer can you get, here "God’s Word" not "your opinion" is giving a line upon line breakdown on how Jesus saves. And you reject it......

You show me one scripture that man has freewill towards salvation would be a good start?

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Greek drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Notice it is God not man’s freewill who is being draws/drags you…. There is no choosing when you are being dragged. Yes by grace you are saved though faith, but you are ignoring the "context of the chapter" and trying to explain away something you do not like...

If you think you can put the horse before the cart. WRONG...

Not at all my friend, I have already shown that John 6:44 in context is not speaking to the drawing of the elect to salvation. First of all John 6:44 is spoken by Jesus while on earth. Let's look at what else Jesus said.


Matthew 15:24 ( KJV )
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

So, the statement in John 6:44 was made to the Jews and not the Gentiles. So if you are going to apply this verse it applied to the Jews. Notice another statement Jesus made.

Matthew 10:5-7 ( KJV )
These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Jesus specifically told the disciples "not" to go to the Gentiles but only to the Jews. So, this drawing only applied to the Jews. As I stated in another post it was because God had partially blinded Israel. They were blinded, that is the reason no one could come unless God had drawn them, Isaiah and Paul both make this clear. However, this drawing was only temporary, Jesus later said,

John 12:32 ( KJV )
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

So we can see that after Jesus was lifted up the drawing by God Was changed and Christ began to draw "all" men.

 

[Butch5]

Butch5

I really do not care to argue with your 24 hour day theory here it has nothing to do with Adam’s death, for Adam died when he was 930 years old and if you do not believe me read Genesis 5;5 and it will tell you. I am sure the spiritual day was relevant in the six days of creation but once Adam and Eve sinned it obvious to anyone who can read God's Word with an open spirit spiritual days was no longer relevant after the fall, seeing the Bible showed us not only Adam death in natural years but a multiple of the patriarchs of scripture to which the list would be too long to even consider lived and died in 24 hour days.

Just like you see spiritual days even thought you do not have all your facts in order there is also a spiritual death in Genesis. Genesis is the foundation for the whole Word of God and seeing it is the foundation spiritual death must be esptablished for spiritual death is peppered all thought the rest of the Bible even though you do not have spiritual eyes to see it.


If Adam did not die spiritually you explain to me why Adam lost his communion with God once they sinned. Here is anothe spin on spiritual death from another spiritual example.
1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come. example

Example: NT:5178 a : Strong’s: tupikos (toop-ee-kos'); an adverb related to NT:5179; found only in 1 Cor 10:11: as a warning, by way of example, typologically (i.e. figuratively, as a prophetic type, a typological interpretation of Scripture)


God said Adam was naked, who cares if Adam was naked physically; I mean it was just Adam, his wife Eve and God. No there is something far more to this creation story.

Naked:

Adam and Eve were both…NAKED! Among all the creatures which God made, man stands out unique…stark naked…which means devoid of true wisdom and knowledge, with his inner nature revealed, opened up, exhibited, and made bare.

Oh, that God may give us understanding to see that to be naked means to have THE FLESH UNCOVERED AND EXPOSED! In the typology of scripture "the flesh" is the name by which the Holy Spirit designates our outer life of soul and body, our earthly and carnal human nature, literally speaking of that nature which is earthly minded, with its lusts and self-centeredness, its ego and I-will which are in rebellion to the spirit. Thus, the flesh is not the outward, visible man of meat, muscle, and bones, but the nature of the soulical and bodily man. This nature was in man from the beginning, else Eve (who was of the man) could not have been tempted, nor could they have sinned! This nature could be seen to be in them from the time God lowered them out of their pure spirit existence, in the image and likeness of God, investing them with a body of earth so that man became a living soul. But as long as man was caught up in God he was not aware of it — for he was naked and was not ashamed (Gen. 2:25). Have we not all experienced the same thing?

You see God caused the fall not Adam or Eve for it was not their choice.

Wow, you sure read a lot into that. I didn't see most of what you said when I read the creation account. Maybe that is why you are having difficulty reconciling hte Scriptures.

As I have shown, Peter says that a thousand years is as a day with the Lord, Adam lived 930 years. So, according to Peter's explanation Adam died the day he ate of the tree of knowledge

Benoni ---If Adam did not die spiritually you explain to me why Adam lost his communion with God once they sinned.

Well, for onething he was banned from the garden. For another it was the result of his sin.

 

[Butch5]

The overcomers are not all believers.

Like I said God is not calling all people now; if God was calling them they have no freewill or choice in this matter. This we learn from the powerful word draw. It is not human will here it is divine will. Yes man has a will, but not when it comes to salvation.

Notice there is a distinction between the great multitudes BEFORE the throne (Rev. 7:9) in comparison to the overcomer who Christ will grant to sit with me on my throne (Rev. 3:21) .

Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev. 3: 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

I've already shown you that John calls the believer the one who overcomes. So, all who believe are overcomers.

You may have said that God is not calling all people, but that is not what the Scriptures say.

 

[Butch5]

There are more then one example of death in God’s Word.

1,

There is physical death, for Adam died Physical at age 930. Phyical death is nothing but an example to show us what death is. The real death is the spiritual death.

2.

Then there is spiritual death, for when Adam died spiritually he lost all reality of God for he became spiritually dead or carnal.

Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Romans 3:11 (AMP) No one understands [no one intelligently discerns or comprehends]; no one seeks out God.

Romans 3:11 (NCV) 11 There is no one who understands.
There is no one who looks to God for help.

Romans 3:9 (MSG) So where does that put us? Do we Jews get a better break than the others? Not really. Basically, all of us, whether insiders or outsiders, start out in identical conditions, which is to say that we all start out as sinners. Scripture leaves no doubt about it:

There's nobody living right, not even one,
nobody who knows the score, nobody alert for God.
They've all taken the wrong turn;
they've all wandered down blind alleys.
No one's living right;
I can't find a single one.
Their throats are gaping graves,
their tongues slick as mudslides.
Every word they speak is tinged with poison.
They open their mouths and pollute the air.
They race for the honor of sinner-of-the-year,
litter the land with heartbreak and ruin,
Don't know the first thing about living with others.
They never give God the time of day.
This makes it clear, doesn't it, that whatever is written in these Scriptures is not what God says about others but to us to whom these Scriptures were addressed in the first place! And it's clear enough, isn't it, that we're sinners, every one of us, in the same sinking boat with everybody else? Our involvement with God's revelation doesn't put us right with God. What it does is force us to face our complicity in everyone else's sin.

3,

The last is the second death. Which is death to spiritual death.

"The first Adam died to God and righteousness, and became alive unto sin. The last Adam died unto sin (Rom. 6:10), and liveth unto God, and so fulfilleth all righteousness. The first made all men sinners, the last makes all men righteous. The lives and the deaths of the two Adams are thus greatly contrasting the one to the other. The FIRST DEATH was a transition from life to death, the SECOND DEATH is a transition from corruption to incorruption, from mortality to immortality. Transformed from the carnal mind to the spiritual mind, which is life and peace, which transformation is wrought by a dying out to the one realm, to come alive to the higher realm. Because -- the second death is prepared to purge out and burn away sin and its results, and so doing cleanse all of God's universe. Death came as an enemy, the fruitage of an act of disobedience that turned man away from God and into the realm of carnality, minding self and flesh. Now God makes death overcome itself. It is by death that death is rendered powerless, and there arises an upspringing, a new life. It takes death to destroy death, and thus Christ 'did taste death for every man' --'that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage' (Heb. 2:9, 14-15). Since we are all under the effects of the first death, it is appointed unto us to die once more -- not physical death, we are already in a state of mortality -- but now a dying out to this present death state. We conquer this death of the carnal mind by dying to it -- only God could use such a process bringing victory, but praise God, lie is destroying the first death with the second death"


Who are God’s elect? The Overcomers. There are two types of people in the Book of Revelation; the Overcomer and everyone else.

There are two types of people in the Book of Revelation, those who overcome and those who do not. The second death is a process for all of us who have not overcome now; it is a spiritual process.

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Not he who belives, or he who is saved, but he who overcame will not be hurt by the second death for they have already overcame death by death. This why Jesus died for he is the forerunner of overcome death.

Just a single verse that speaks of Spiritual death.

 

[Nomad]

Not at all my friend, I have already shown that John 6:44 in context is not speaking to the drawing of the elect to salvation.

No, you haven't shown anything of the kind. John 6:44 is in fact speaking about the drawing of the elect unto salvation. The problem here is that you have conveniently ignored verse 45.

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me...

Did you catch that ? Those who are drawn in verse 44 are the same as those who are taught of God in verse 45. They are those who have heard and learned from the Father and they come to Christ.

If you so desire, I can show you how you've ripped John 12:32 out of its context. The only thing that John 6:44 and John 12:32 have in common is the word "draw." Other than that, they each are communicating two entirely different concepts.

 

[Butch5]

Man has no freewill when it comes to salvation. The whole doctrine of freewill is based on a religious myth and not God's Word. God controls man's salvation, man has no control of spiritual things until God first calls that man/women.

Can you explain then why this teaching was not taught in the church until Martin Luther and John Calvin? In the time of Christ and the apostles this was taught by the Greek Philosophers.

 

[Butch5]

Not at all my friend, I have already shown that John 6:44 in context is not speaking to the drawing of the elect to salvation.

No, you haven't shown anything of the kind. John 6:44 is in fact speaking about the drawing of the elect unto salvation. The problem here is that you have conveniently ignored verse 45.

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me...

Did you catch that ? Those who are drawn in verse 44 are the same as those who are taught of God in verse 45. They are those who have heard and learned from the Father and they come to Christ.

If you so desire, I can show you how you've ripped John 12:32 out of its context. The only thing that John 6:44 and John 12:32 have in common is the word "draw." Other than that, they each are communicating two entirely different concepts.

Yes friend I have. And I have done so in context. I did not overlook verse 45, as I said, Israel was blinded, only those who were drawn could come, and verse 45 are those who were drawn.

And yes, I would be most interested if you could show how John 12:32 is out of context. And please don't give me the "all kinds of people" argument because that one really doesn't stand up.

Also, I would be interested if you could please support you claim that John 6:44 is speaking of drawing the elect to salvation.

 

[Nomad]

Man has no freewill when it comes to salvation. The whole doctrine of freewill is based on a religious myth and not God's Word. God controls man's salvation, man has no control of spiritual things until God first calls that man/women.

Can you explain then why this teaching was not taught in the church until Martin Luther and John Calvin? In the time of Christ and the apostles this was taught by the Greek Philosophers.

The doctrine of God's sovereignty in salvation was taught long before Luther and Calvin. Paul taught it in Scripture. Augustine taught it in the 4th century, the Council of Orange taught it in the 6th century, Gottschalk taught it in the 9th century and Wycliff and Huss taught it subsequent to Luther.

 

[Nomad]

Also, I would be interested if you could please support you claim that John 6:44 is speaking of drawing the elect to salvation.

I already have. You're ignoring verse 45. Read it again very carefully. I'll get back to you tomorrow on John 12:32--gladly.

 

[Benoni]

I have conveniently done no such thing, but now that you have point john 6:45 it has changed nothing. It is the elect, which is not all believers. All that matters now in God’s eyes for it is thought the elect God will draw all men.

Not at all my friend, I have already shown that John 6:44 in context is not speaking to the drawing of the elect to salvation.

No, you haven't shown anything of the kind. John 6:44 is in fact speaking about the drawing of the elect unto salvation. The problem here is that you have conveniently ignored verse 45.

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me...

Did you catch that ? Those who are drawn in verse 44 are the same as those who are taught of God in verse 45. They are those who have heard and learned from the Father and they come to Christ.

If you so desire, I can show you how you've ripped John 12:32 out of its context. The only thing that John 6:44 and John 12:32 have in common is the word "draw." Other than that, they each are communicating two entirely different concepts.

Not at all my friend, I have already shown that John 6:44 in context is not speaking to the drawing of the elect to salvation.

No, you haven't shown anything of the kind. John 6:44 is in fact speaking about the drawing of the elect unto salvation. The problem here is that you have conveniently ignored verse 45.

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me...

Did you catch that ? Those who are drawn in verse 44 are the same as those who are taught of God in verse 45. They are those who have heard and learned from the Father and they come to Christ.

If you so desire, I can show you how you've ripped John 12:32 out of its context. The only thing that John 6:44 and John 12:32 have in common is the word "draw." Other than that, they each are communicating two entirely different concepts.

 

[Benoni]

I have conveniently done no such thing, but now that you have point john 6:45 it has changed nothing. It is the elect, which is not all believers. All that matters now in God’s eyes for it is thought the elect God will draw all men.

Not at all my friend, I have already shown that John 6:44 in context is not speaking to the drawing of the elect to salvation.

No, you haven't shown anything of the kind. John 6:44 is in fact speaking about the drawing of the elect unto salvation. The problem here is that you have conveniently ignored verse 45.

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me...

Did you catch that ? Those who are drawn in verse 44 are the same as those who are taught of God in verse 45. They are those who have heard and learned from the Father and they come to Christ.

If you so desire, I can show you how you've ripped John 12:32 out of its context. The only thing that John 6:44 and John 12:32 have in common is the word "draw." Other than that, they each are communicating two entirely different concepts.

 

[Benoni]

double post

 

[Benoni]

This makes no sense and i already posted why, Adam did not die phyically until he was 930 years old that is a scriptural fact. Your day of the Lord does not work in this context.

Benoni---Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Yes death in Ephesians 2 is a metaphor, but a metaphor of what kind of death? Physical or spiritual? When Adam sin he died, but he did not die physically until Genesis 5:5 but he died spiritually. He died from the presence of God. he no longer had what it took to hear, see, touch the presence of God , that is the metaphor that is sprinkled though out God’s Word. All in Adam died, dead in trespasses and sin, die daily. The death in the Book of Revelation is spiritual death not physical.

Adam died spiritually??? That is pure speculation and conjecture. The passage says nothing of spiritual death. It is an assumption based on the idea that Adam did not die in that 24 hour period. However, what do the Scriptures say?

Genesis 2:16-17 ( KJV )
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

So, did Adam die that day? How old was Adam when he died?

Genesis 5:4-5 ( KJV )
And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

Adam lived 930 years, If Adam had not eaten of the tree he would not have died, yet he did eat and God said in that day Adam would die. Did he die that day? According to Peter he did.

2 Peter 3:8 ( KJV )
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.





Psalms 90:4 ( KJV )
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

So, we see that Adam did die physically the day he ate of the tree, we just have to understand that the day was not a 24 hour period.

Benoni---Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Notice it is not all believers who will not be hurt by the second death, it is the overcomers.

A believer is an overcomer.

1 John 5:5 ( KJV )
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Benoni---Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The overcomers become Kings and priest unto God for the remainder of mankind. (Acts 15:16-17)

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Even death will be cast is the Lake of Fire, death will overcome death.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Yes unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers will have there place in the lake of Fire, but so will all those who are not overcomers for only the overcomers will not be hurt by the second death.

That's because the overcomers are believers

 

[Benoni]

Easy. Because people assume and do not read their Bibles.

Man has no freewill when it comes to salvation. The whole doctrine of freewill is based on a religious myth and not God's Word. God controls man's salvation, man has no control of spiritual things until God first calls that man/women.

Can you explain then why this teaching was not taught in the church until Martin Luther and John Calvin? In the time of Christ and the apostles this was taught by the Greek Philosophers.

 

[Benoni]

Besides if man choice or freewill was so scriptural show me the verse when it comes to salvation.

 

[samy]

Is it your argument that Adam and Eve in the Garden had no choice but to sin? Samy

 

[Benoni]

Yes it was God's divine will for man to fall.

 

[samy]

BENONI, It appears that in Genesis when God instructed Adam not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL He did not really mean what He said, in your way of looking at that. The trouble or problem for you then would be explaining why the action of ADAM is called a SIN as we find Paul doing in his epistles, especially Rom 5:12-21 and 1 Cor 15:22. And are you saying that God was not speaking the truth when He stated to Adam these words, " Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it,"; Cursed is the groung because of you..." Gen.3:17 Permit me to remind you that God cannot lie. Heb 6:18 or to tempt one to an evil course. samy

 

[Benoni]

God cannot lie you say?



2Th 2:11
(ALT) And for this reason God will send to them a supernatural working of deception, for them to believe the lie,

(ASV) And for this cause God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie:

(CEV) So God will make sure that they are fooled into believing a lie.

(CLV) And therefore God will be sending them an operation of deception, for them to believe the falsehood,

(DRB)(2:10) Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying:

(EMTV) And because of this, God will send them strong delusion, in order for them to believe the lie,

(ESV) Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,

(Geneva) And therefore God shall send them strong delusion, that they should beleave lies,

(GNB) And so God sends the power of error to work in them so that they believe what is false.

(GW) That's why God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe a lie.

(ISV) For this reason, God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie.

(JPS)
(KJ2000) And for this cause God shall send them a strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

(KJVA) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

(KJVR) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

(LITV) And because of this, God will send to them a working of error, for them to believe the lie,

(LONT) For this cause, God will send them strong delusion, that they may believe a lie;

(MKJV) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie,

(Murdock) Therefore God will send upon them the operation of deception, that they may believe a lie;

(RYLT-NT) and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie,

(The Scriptures '98+)And for this reason Elohim sends them a working of delusion, for them to believe the falsehood,1Footnote: 1Eze. 20:25, John 9:39, John 12:40, Acts 7:42, Rom. 1:24-28.

(Webster) And for this cause God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

(WNT) And for this reason God sends them a misleading influence that they may believe the lie;

 

[Benoni]

Adam had no choice according (Romans 8;20)
(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.


It was God’s choose Adam to sin because God has a greater plan.

If God did not ordain Adam and Eve’s sin; then He is not all knowing.

It was God lowered Adam from a spirit to a living soul and formed him from dust man.

It was God who made Adam and Eve innocent; they did not do it them selves.

It was God who put the tree of good and evil in the garden.

It was God who put the devil, a man slayer, a murderer, a liar in the garden; God totally knew what he was doing with Adam and Eve.

God is soverign over all things especially something as big as the fall of all humanity.

.

It was God not little Adam and Eve who caused the fall, it was God not little Adam who planned as well as set up Adam and Eve to sin; it is God not Little Adam and Eve who declares: You (God) turn man to destruction, Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse, the creation (A)was subjected to (B)futility, not willingly, But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it.