First let me say that I apologize if my post yesterday came across as sarcastic. Secondly, I do not hold to Arminian doctrin.
Nomad said:
Butch5,
As I promised yesterday...
Whenever the Calvinist mentions John 6:44-45 many Arminians will immediately run to John 12:32 in order to diffuse the obvious teaching of the former. That being, those who are drawn in John 6:44 are the same as those who have heard and learned from the Father and come to Jesus in verse 45. As I said yesterday, the only thing that John 6:44-45 has in common with John 12:32 is the word "draw." Other than that they communicate two entirely different things.
Well, you see it is the Calvinist conclusion that does not fit with the Scriptures. The Calvinist is force to change the meaning of words to reconcile doctrine. As I have already stated, the passage in John 6 was spoken to the Jews, Jesus makes this clear in His statement that He has only come to Israel. So this drawing was only a drawing of Israel and it was only for a specific time. As Isaiah and Paul tell us Israel was blinded. They were blinded for a purpose, which was for the crucifixion to take place, Paul tells us,
1 Corinthians 2:6-8 ( KJV )
Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Which none of the princes of this world knew:
for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. So, Paul tells us if the mystery had been revealed prior to the crucifixion it would not have happened. So, we have the blindness of Israel, which was intentional.
Mark 4:10-12 ( KJV )
And when he was alone,
they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
And he said unto them,
Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God:
but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
So to those who were chosen “it was given” them to understand, (they shall all be taught of God, John 6:45). But to those who were not chosen the parables were not understood. This is clearly the drawing that Jesus is speaking about, and the blinding that Paul is speaking of. As we saw from Paul’s statement this blinding or hiding of the mystery was so that the crucifixion could take place. As I said before this was a temporary situation that was taking place during Jesus ‘ earthly ministry. Jesus said after this that if He was lifted up he would draw all men unto Himself.
Nomad ---
Joh 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
Note the context of John 12:32 carefully.
Joh 12:20 Now among those who went up to worship at the feast were some Greeks.
Joh 12:21 So these came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, and asked him, "Sir, we wish to see Jesus."
joh 12:22 Philip went and told Andrew; Andrew and Philip went and told Jesus.
John 12 narrates the final events of Jesus' public ministry. The final words of Jesus' public teaching are prompted by the arrival of Greeks who are seeking an audience with Jesus. This is extremely important to understanding what Jesus is saying in verse 32. The arrival of these Greeks prompts the teaching that follows. Jesus is now being sought by non-Jews, Gentiles. When Jesus is informed of this He says:
Joh 12:23 And Jesus answered them, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified.
Joh 12:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.
Joh 12:25 Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
Joh 12:26 If anyone serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there will my servant be also. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him.
Joh 12:27 "Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'? But for this purpose I have come to this hour.
Joh 12:28 Father, glorify your name." Then a voice came from heaven: "I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again."
Joh 12:29 The crowd that stood there and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, "An angel has spoken to him."
Joh 12:30 Jesus answered, "This voice has come for your sake, not mine.
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.
Joh 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
Joh 12:33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.
The Arminian understanding of this passage is untenable for two very important reasons. First there's the fact that what prompted Jesus' teaching is the arrival of the Gentiles to see Jesus. For Jews in the first century the world was comprised of two basic people groups--Jews and Gentiles. For them "all men" (pas anthropas) would not mean every individual exhaustively. It would mean Jews and Gentiles together. In other words, "mankind." Even more important than that is the fact that if you insist that "all men" means every individual exhaustively you have effectively set up a glaring contradiction with John 6:37-45.
On the contrary, You yourself have stated The Jews would understand Jesus statement as referring to “mankind”. Who is not included in mankind? Here is where I believe you have erred. Look at what Jesus said,
John 12:26 ( KJV )
If
any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if
any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
Would not any man potentially be any human being? Also,
John 12:31 ( KJV )
Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
So, the statement immediately before the one in qustion clearly speaks of every person in the world. Unless you hold a position in which all men are not judged.
Wouldn’t the Jews have understood the judgment to include every single human being?
Immediately following this Jesus says,
John 12:35-36 ( KJV )
Then Jesus said unto them,
Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk
while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.
While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
We know that light is a metaphor for understanding and John gives us more information on this light.
John 1:5-9 ( KJV )
And the
light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light,
that all men through him might believe.
He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
That was the true Light,
which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
John says Christ lights “every man” that comes into the world and that all men through Him might believe. The context here is pretty clear John Specifically says "every man"
I believe the context for “all men” being everyone is quite a bit stronger than it being all types of men.
Nomad ---Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day." Joh 6:41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven."
Joh 6:42 They said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, 'I have come down from heaven'?"
Joh 6:43 Jesus answered them, "Do not grumble among yourselves.
Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me...
Again, those who are drawn in John 6:44 are the same as those who have heard and learned from the Father and come to Jesus in verse 45. If your understanding of "all men" in John 12:32 iscorrect then every individual exhaustively will come to Jesus and be raised up on the last day. The Arminian understanding either creates a contradiction with John 6 or universalism. It's one or the other. There's no way around this if we abandon the clear context of John 12:32 and understand "all men" the way the first century Jew would have.
There is no contradiction as I have shown, The two statements speak of different times and different issues. And it doesn’t create universalism because not all who are drawn will be lifted at the last day.