Freewill and Choice have NOTHING to dowith Salvation

[Benoni]

By the way the ground did become cursed as God proclaimed, so how is that a lie?

BENONI, It appears that in Genesis when God instructed Adam not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL He did not really mean what He said, in your way of looking at that. The trouble or problem for you then would be explaining why the action of ADAM is called a SIN as we find Paul doing in his epistles, especially Rom 5:12-21 and 1 Cor 15:22. And are you saying that God was not speaking the truth when He stated to Adam these words, " Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it,"; Cursed is the groung because of you..." Gen.3:17 Permit me to remind you that God cannot lie. Heb 6:18 or to tempt one to an evil course. samy

 

[samy]

Benoni, Sin is of course doing other than the will of God (or have I got that wrong too?) You say that when Adam sinned He was doing God's will, the only thing he could do, and ultimately the right thing. let me ask you this. this questiion, is called a falseifiability challenge. What would it look like if you are wrong about this stand you have taken that there is no free will? What would a universe with free will look like? Would it be a place where people did unreasonable things or said unreasonable thing. Just what would such a freewill universe look like? If you can't descriabe it then I and others would suggest that your universe with no free will doesn't exist. samy
P.S. 2thess2:11 says nowhere that God lies. Only Satan makes that argument in Genesis 3:4. I would urge you not to go in that direction.

 

[Nomad]

Butch5,

As I promised yesterday...

Whenever the Calvinist mentions John 6:44-45 many Arminians will immediately run to John 12:32 in order to diffuse the obvious teaching of the former. That being, those who are drawn in John 6:44 are the same as those who have heard and learned from the Father and come to Jesus in verse 45. As I said yesterday, the only thing that John 6:44-45 has in common with John 12:32 is the word "draw." Other than that they communicate two entirely different things.

Joh 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

Note the context of John 12:32 carefully.

Joh 12:20 Now among those who went up to worship at the feast were some Greeks.
Joh 12:21 So these came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, and asked him, "Sir, we wish to see Jesus."
joh 12:22 Philip went and told Andrew; Andrew and Philip went and told Jesus.

John 12 narrates the final events of Jesus' public ministry. The final words of Jesus' public teaching are prompted by the arrival of Greeks who are seeking an audience with Jesus. This is extremely important to understanding what Jesus is saying in verse 32. The arrival of these Greeks prompts the teaching that follows. Jesus is now being sought by non-Jews, Gentiles. When Jesus is informed of this He says:

Joh 12:23 And Jesus answered them, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified.
Joh 12:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.
Joh 12:25 Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
Joh 12:26 If anyone serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there will my servant be also. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him.
Joh 12:27 "Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'? But for this purpose I have come to this hour.
Joh 12:28 Father, glorify your name." Then a voice came from heaven: "I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again."
Joh 12:29 The crowd that stood there and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, "An angel has spoken to him."
Joh 12:30 Jesus answered, "This voice has come for your sake, not mine.
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.
Joh 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
Joh 12:33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.

The Arminian understanding of this passage is untenable for two very important reasons. First there's the fact that what prompted Jesus' teaching is the arrival of the Gentiles to see Jesus. For Jews in the first century the world was comprised of two basic people groups--Jews and Gentiles. For them "all men" (pas anthropas) would not mean every individual exhaustively. It would mean Jews and Gentiles together. In other words, "mankind." Even more important than that is the fact that if you insist that "all men" means every individual exhaustively you have effectively set up a glaring contradiction with John 6:37-45.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day." Joh 6:41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven."
Joh 6:42 They said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, 'I have come down from heaven'?"
Joh 6:43 Jesus answered them, "Do not grumble among yourselves.
Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me...

Again, those who are drawn in John 6:44 are the same as those who have heard and learned from the Father and come to Jesus in verse 45. If your understanding of "all men" in John 12:32 iscorrect then every individual exhaustively will come to Jesus and be raised up on the last day. The Arminian understanding either creates a contradiction with John 6 or universalism. It's one or the other. There's no way around this if we abandon the clear context of John 12:32 and understand "all men" the way the first century Jew would have.
　
　
　　

 

[Butch5]

First let me say that I apologize if my post yesterday came across as sarcastic. Secondly, I do not hold to Arminian doctrin.

Butch5,

As I promised yesterday...

Whenever the Calvinist mentions John 6:44-45 many Arminians will immediately run to John 12:32 in order to diffuse the obvious teaching of the former. That being, those who are drawn in John 6:44 are the same as those who have heard and learned from the Father and come to Jesus in verse 45. As I said yesterday, the only thing that John 6:44-45 has in common with John 12:32 is the word "draw." Other than that they communicate two entirely different things.

Well, you see it is the Calvinist conclusion that does not fit with the Scriptures. The Calvinist is force to change the meaning of words to reconcile doctrine. As I have already stated, the passage in John 6 was spoken to the Jews, Jesus makes this clear in His statement that He has only come to Israel. So this drawing was only a drawing of Israel and it was only for a specific time. As Isaiah and Paul tell us Israel was blinded. They were blinded for a purpose, which was for the crucifixion to take place, Paul tells us,

1 Corinthians 2:6-8 ( KJV )
Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. So, Paul tells us if the mystery had been revealed prior to the crucifixion it would not have happened. So, we have the blindness of Israel, which was intentional.

Mark 4:10-12 ( KJV )
And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

So to those who were chosen “it was given” them to understand, (they shall all be taught of God, John 6:45). But to those who were not chosen the parables were not understood. This is clearly the drawing that Jesus is speaking about, and the blinding that Paul is speaking of. As we saw from Paul’s statement this blinding or hiding of the mystery was so that the crucifixion could take place. As I said before this was a temporary situation that was taking place during Jesus ‘ earthly ministry. Jesus said after this that if He was lifted up he would draw all men unto Himself.

Nomad ---

Joh 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

Note the context of John 12:32 carefully.


Joh 12:20 Now among those who went up to worship at the feast were some Greeks.
Joh 12:21 So these came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, and asked him, "Sir, we wish to see Jesus."
joh 12:22 Philip went and told Andrew; Andrew and Philip went and told Jesus.

John 12 narrates the final events of Jesus' public ministry. The final words of Jesus' public teaching are prompted by the arrival of Greeks who are seeking an audience with Jesus. This is extremely important to understanding what Jesus is saying in verse 32. The arrival of these Greeks prompts the teaching that follows. Jesus is now being sought by non-Jews, Gentiles. When Jesus is informed of this He says:


Joh 12:23 And Jesus answered them, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified.
Joh 12:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.
Joh 12:25 Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
Joh 12:26 If anyone serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there will my servant be also. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him.
Joh 12:27 "Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'? But for this purpose I have come to this hour.
Joh 12:28 Father, glorify your name." Then a voice came from heaven: "I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again."
Joh 12:29 The crowd that stood there and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, "An angel has spoken to him."
Joh 12:30 Jesus answered, "This voice has come for your sake, not mine.
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.
Joh 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."
Joh 12:33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.

The Arminian understanding of this passage is untenable for two very important reasons. First there's the fact that what prompted Jesus' teaching is the arrival of the Gentiles to see Jesus. For Jews in the first century the world was comprised of two basic people groups--Jews and Gentiles. For them "all men" (pas anthropas) would not mean every individual exhaustively. It would mean Jews and Gentiles together. In other words, "mankind." Even more important than that is the fact that if you insist that "all men" means every individual exhaustively you have effectively set up a glaring contradiction with John 6:37-45.

On the contrary, You yourself have stated The Jews would understand Jesus statement as referring to “mankind”. Who is not included in mankind? Here is where I believe you have erred. Look at what Jesus said,

John 12:26 ( KJV )
If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
Would not any man potentially be any human being? Also,

John 12:31 ( KJV )
Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

So, the statement immediately before the one in qustion clearly speaks of every person in the world. Unless you hold a position in which all men are not judged.

Wouldn’t the Jews have understood the judgment to include every single human being?
Immediately following this Jesus says,

John 12:35-36 ( KJV )
Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.
While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

We know that light is a metaphor for understanding and John gives us more information on this light.

John 1:5-9 ( KJV )
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

John says Christ lights “every man” that comes into the world and that all men through Him might believe. The context here is pretty clear John Specifically says "every man"
I believe the context for “all men” being everyone is quite a bit stronger than it being all types of men.

Nomad ---Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day." Joh 6:41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven."
Joh 6:42 They said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, 'I have come down from heaven'?"
Joh 6:43 Jesus answered them, "Do not grumble among yourselves.
Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me...

Again, those who are drawn in John 6:44 are the same as those who have heard and learned from the Father and come to Jesus in verse 45. If your understanding of "all men" in John 12:32 iscorrect then every individual exhaustively will come to Jesus and be raised up on the last day. The Arminian understanding either creates a contradiction with John 6 or universalism. It's one or the other. There's no way around this if we abandon the clear context of John 12:32 and understand "all men" the way the first century Jew would have.

There is no contradiction as I have shown, The two statements speak of different times and different issues. And it doesn’t create universalism because not all who are drawn will be lifted at the last day.　

 

[Butch5]

Adam had no choice according (Romans 8;20)
(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, [/color]You are God. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.


It was God’s choose Adam to sin because God has a greater plan.

If God did not ordain Adam and Eve’s sin; then He is not all knowing.

It was God lowered Adam from a spirit to a living soul and formed him from dust man.

It was God who made Adam and Eve innocent; they did not do it them selves.

It was God who put the tree of good and evil in the garden.

It was God who put the devil, a man slayer, a murderer, a liar in the garden; God totally knew what he was doing with Adam and Eve.

God is sovereign over all things especially something as big as the fall of all humanity.

.

It was God not little Adam and Eve who caused the fall, it was God not little Adam who planned as well as set up Adam and Eve to sin; it is God not Little Adam and Eve who declares: You (God) turn man to destruction, Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse, the creation (A)was subjected to (B)futility, not willingly, But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it.

Not so friend, God did not cause Adam and Eve to sin. What would be the purpose of causing them to sin?

Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

My friend may I suggest a look at the Septuagint as opposed to the Masoretic text. The Septuagint is a translation of the OT Scriptures in Greek. This is what Jesus and the apostles used as their Bible. the Masoretic text varies in places from the Septuagint and is not as accurate. Here is the same passage in the Septuagint.

​

Psalm 90​

[/color]

A Prayer of Moses the man of God.​

90:1Lord, thou hast been our refuge in all generations. 2​

Before the mountains existed, and before the earth and
the world were formed, even from age to age, Thou art. 3​

Turn not man back to hislow place, whereas thou saidst,​

Return, ye sons of men?

Notice the Septuagint does not translate the passage as destruction.

The Greek word is,

Thayer’s Greek Definitions
G5014 ταπείνωσις tapeinōsis Thayer Definition: 1) lowness, low estate 2) metaphorically 2a) spiritual abasement, leading one to perceive and lament his (moral) littleness and guilt

Notice it does not mean destruction. The Septuagint is much older and translated from more ancient texts than the Masoretic text.

 

[Nomad]

Well, you see it is the Calvinist conclusion that does not fit with the Scriptures. The Calvinist is force to change the meaning of words to reconcile doctrine.

That's quite a charge, but I haven't changed the meaning of any words. I'm merely allowing the context of John 12:32 to determine the meaning of "pas" in the phrase "pas anthropos." See definition 2a below which reads "some of all types." In the context of John 12:32 this would mean some of "every nation," "mankind," "Jews and Gentiles." It makes perfect sense in light of Jesus' new Gentile audience in John 12. He was telling them that his atonement was for them as well as the Jews. In this vein see Revelation 5:9.

Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation...


pas
Thayer Definition:
1) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,everything
2) collectively
2a) some of all types
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: including all the forms of declension
Citing in TDNT: 5:886, 795

 

[n2thelight]

That certain were chosen for 'certain' things is unmistakable in the Scriptures. Below is just a couple of Scriptures that definitely show that 'certain' were chosen (predestined) for certain things (fates). I wont supply Old Testament Scriptures as I feel that we can all agree that Israel was God's chosen there.<blockquote>

Jude 1:4-5
4 For there are certain men[not all men] crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this['once knew this?' They (not all) knew it from before (before this eath age)], how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. (KJV)Rev 17:14
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. [not everybody, He is speaking of those WITH Him](KJV)John 15:16
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. [not everybody, He is speaking of the Disciples (and by extension, the Elect of the latter times)] (KJV)​

</blockquote>

I must hasten to add that since Christ's work on the cross, all can be adopted into eternal life through faith in Christ Jesus. However, 'certain' have been chosen, pre-selected by God, not to be more loved of God but to do a certain task in the end times in fulfillment of Scripture.

These are called the Elect of God. So then, that leads to natural question: Who are the Elect? Well, every single denominational group claims to be the Elect. The Catholics call themselves the one true Church, the Rapturists call themselves the saved 'saints,' the Mormons believe themselves to be the chosen of God, many cults believe themselves to be a special group of God's Elect. So why should I add to this confusion with an answer? other to say that God's Elect are those who know the truth about the identity of the antichrist in the final times (our generation).
But the main point is that while God's plan and prophecies MUST be fulfilled as prophesied, for "scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35), and the whole world shall worship the antichrist as it is written:​

<blockquote>

Rev 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (KJV)​

</blockquote>

Only God's Elect (by His grace and purpose) shall resist the antichrist. That is not to say that all who UNWITTINGLY worship the wrong Christ are damned, for there is a certain degree of innocence in ignorance. And we are not fated on an individual level to be deceived, but many do not study to their own undoing. Nobody is born damned, they become that way by their own free will actions.

Yes, Christ's blood is able to save all, but not all shall be saved. There are qualifiers with all of God's promises:​

<blockquote>

John 3:15-18
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (KJV)​

​

http://www.biblestudysite.com/answers14.htm#6</blockquote>

 

[Benoni]

Samy,

Benoni, Sin is of course doing other than the will of God (or have I got that wrong too?) You say that when Adam sinned He was doing God's will, the only thing he could do, and ultimately the right thing. let me ask you this. this questiion, is called a falseifiability challenge. What would it look like if you are wrong about this stand you have taken that there is no free will? What would a universe with free will look like? Would it be a place where people did unreasonable things or said unreasonable thing. Just what would such a freewill universe look like? If you can't descriabe it then I and others would suggest that your universe with no free will doesn't exist. samy
P.S. 2thess2:11 says nowhere that God lies. Only Satan makes that argument in Genesis 3:4. I would urge you not to go in that direction.

Please let us start with 2 Th. 2:11. I guess you cannot not read. Satan is not even mentioned in this verse. Try real hard this time to read what the verse says instead of inserting your opinion in with what you want it to say.

2Th 2:11
(ALT) And for this reason God will send to them a supernatural working of deception, for them to believe the lie,

The word ‘sin’ means miss the mark, an offense

Sin:NT:264 hamartano (ham-ar-tan'-o); perhaps from NT:1 (as a negative particle) and the base of NT:3313; properly, to miss the mark (and so not share in the prize), i.e. (figuratively) to err, especially (morally) to sin:
NT:266 hamartia (ham-ar-tee'-ah); from NT:264; a sin (properly abstract):


Satan has no bearing on 2 Th. 2:11 he is not even mentioned and I am not going anywhere, I am quoting scripture.

No one said man does not have a freewill, I said man does not have a freewill towards salvation, unless you can show me chapter and verse please. You can choose a maple wall nut ice cream over one with spinkles, you can choos many superficial things, But when it comes to major things, the things that matter you have no choice. Did you choose your mom and dad, did you chooseto be born, your color of skin... Well you do not choose your salvation until God draws/drags you or quickens you.

 

[Benoni]

Nomad,

The word draw us as stated in John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day. and John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (Gk(drag) all men unto me. The word draw is the Greek word from Strong’s 1670: helkuo (hel-koo'-o);or helko (hel'-ko); probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively): There is no choice for the person when God draws you, drags you or forces you to come; it is God's choice not little man.


The Bible declares that God will draw all men unto me. In other words God will draw/drag or force all men unto Him. No freewill or choice when this will happen.

The truth of the supernatural and all-powerful DRAWING of God is one of the most neglected of all the great truths of God's Word, and yet it is one of the most important. Undoubtedly the reason for its neglect is that it is repugnant to the world of unregenerate man, and professing Christians whose theology denies the sovereign and infinite grace of God. One of the chief characteristics of apostate Christendom is that it vigorously opposes any teaching of Scripture that refuses to give man the glory. Therefore any doctrine of the Bible that declares man's helplessness apart from the activating power of God is bound to arouse the ire of the adversary and his followers.

IS THE DRAWING OF GOD. No sinner could be saved if God did not convict, quicken, deal with, and draw him. So many times we lose sight of this. We could not desire His will nor His best, we could not love and hunger for our dear Lord if God did not graciously put within us a hunger for Him and His will.

The words HELKO and HELKUO may be found at least eight times in the Greek New Testament. Peter forcibly drew his sword from its sheath to cut off the ear of Malchus.

Other passages contain the idea of force connected with this word, such as in Jn. 21:6, where we find that the load of fish was so huge that the disciples could not haul it aboard the boat. Their seasoned muscles were not able to pull such a great weight out of the water, for John says, "Now they were not able to DRAW it for the multitude of fish." Yet, a moment later, Simon Peter hauls the net through the water and up to the shore. This again is referred to as "drawing" the netload of fish with a force that is not resisted.

When the apostle James wishes to describe the manner in which rich men forcibly drag those who are indebted to them to prison, he uses the word HELKO. In James 2:6 he writes, "Do not rich men oppress you and DRAW you before the judgment seats?" This "drawing," of course, was not with wooing or pleading! It was an act of force that absolutely took no care of the willingness of the person drawn! The poor man might resist ever so much, and he might cry and plead, but he was drawn irresistibly to the place of judgment!

It is with precisely this kind of forceful drawing that the Lord Jesus is talking when He says, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will DRAW all drawn unto me!" And, thank God, they are not just drawn "toward" Him, but UNTO HIM --all the way! Because the Christ was "lifted up" on the cross of Calvary, dying on behalf of every man of Adam's race, the promise is sure, He will inexorably DRAW all men unto Himself! The divine plan calls for the Church, the body of Christ, to be drawn to Him in this age, all the living nations of the world to be drawn to Him in the next age, and the remainder of men, all who have ever lived and died upon this planet in the ages to come.

Another example of the use of the Greek work HELKO which shows that the drawing is by force and in spite of the resistance of the one drawn, is in Acts 16:19. When Paul and Silas were vexed by the demonic slave girl, Paul cast the evil spirit out of her. Her masters saw that all hope of profit was gone, so they grabbed the two servants of Jesus and forcibly dragged them to the judges in the market place. We read: "And when her masters saw that the hope of their gain was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and DREW them into the market place unto the rulers." This was not an act in which the persons drawn delighted to cooperate. No, it was an act of force which "compelled" them to go where they would not have preferred to go!

So it is with man who is spiritually dead and happy to follow the devil to hell because he prefers darkness to light. He does not "come to Jesus" of his own "free will." If he has eyes to see and ears to hear the Lord it is because God has quickened his spirit and opened his spiritual sight and unplugged his spiritual ears, as it is written, "The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them! " (Prov. 20:12).

Still another instance in which the Greek word HELKO is translated "draw," when it refers to taking by force and overcoming all resistance, is Acts 21:30. Paul is seen in the temple at Jerusalem, and the Jews are so aroused by the presence of this apostle of Jesus that they incite the mob to lynch him if at all possible. They did not gently invite him to "please leave," nor did they "lovingly" draw him out of the place. No, they grabbed him forcibly, determined to haul him out of their holy house. The Scripture declares that "All the city was moved, and the people ran together; and they took Paul, and DREW him out of the temple, and at once the doors were shut." Of course he was rescued at this point by the Roman soldiers before the Jews could kill him for desecrating the temple by his presence. The point is that "draw" speaks of violence and force, not gentle persuasion.

No one ever comes to Jesus without God having planned the time and the manner. No one ever "decides" to accept Jesus of his own "free will. " It is the volition of the Lord that moves powerfully and irresistibly upon the sinner to trust the Saviour, and not the will of the spiritually dead creature who loves darkness rather than light! "No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me DRAW him..." (Jn. 6:44).

Do you think that you came to the Christ of your own free will, as a free moral agent? Do you dare assume that your old corrupt mind and heart somehow became persuaded to violate its very nature and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ? Then read Jn. 6:44 and Jn. 12:32 again and accept it for what it plainly says! Treat these verses with honesty. Jesus says that NO ONE can come unto Him apart from the irresistible force of God's drawing, and He also says that because He died HE WILL FORCIBLY AND IRRESISTIBLY DRAW A-L-L M-E-N unto Himself.

 

[n2thelight]

Benoni

You must read the verses before and after...

II Thessalonians 2:10 "And with all deceivableness [deceit] of unrighteousness in [for] them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth,"

God is writing this letter to us personally, and we are responsible for understanding it. We are accountable to God to give answer for our actions. It is you and I, individually, that will stand before God and give our personal answer for the personal handling of His Word. There will be no preacher, friend or family member with you on that judgment day, for they will all be explaining and accounting for their own words and actions. If your pastor is one of the false shepherds, and led many saints astray, his ignorance won't help him or you.
This is something we must think about, our souls are at stake here.

II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion [send them a working of error], that they should a lie;"
If you want to believe a lie, God will allow it; in fact he will help you into the system of deceptions Satan will bring on the earth. Do you really think God will come here and personally show you, and talk to you when you refuse to believe His Word, when He gave it in such detail through the prophets and His Son. If you desire to believe that your going to fly out of here, and refuse His word, He will so block your mind that you will not be capable of understanding truth. God will send the "strong delusion" over your mind. The strong delusion is an act of love given by God for your protection.

II Thessalonians 2:12 "That they all might be damned [judged] who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

This is the reason for the "strong delusion" of verse eleven; "That they might be damned", it would be more accurately translated "condemned". Condemned for not believing the truth in God's Word when given to them. They had the warning, but still followed Satan, and partook in his religious system.
"Pleasure in unrighteousness" is not referring to drunken brawls, or whore houses, but it is a continuation of the subject here at hand. That subject is "worshipping the Antichrist [Satan] as the true Christ." You will take pleasure in that damnable sin; that unrighteous act will be done in your total ignorance. It's easy to say "I'm saved", but saved from what? The subject here has changed from that of verse eight, to "being damned through deception." The traditions of men will change this subject, from "being deceived by Satan, and enjoying it" to petty activities of the day.

http://www.theseason.org/2thess/2thess2.htm

 

[Benoni]

What ever you have a right to your bias opinion I see it totally different. I see you did not address the facts I again quote below? God had a savior long before he had a sinner, "for the lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth".

It was not little Adam's sin it was God soverign hand and God willed the fall. Without the fall there would no need for a savior. Adam and Eve would of been God's puppets doing God's will automatically like a programed robot. But no God did not want servants, He desired overcoming Son if you will notice it did happen as God planned at the end if the Bible.


It was God’s choose Adam to sin because God has a greater plan.

If God did not ordain Adam and Eve’s sin; then He is not all knowing.

It was God lowered Adam from a spirit to a living soul and formed him from dust man.

It was God who made Adam and Eve innocent; they did not do it them selves.

It was God who put the tree of good and evil in the garden.

It was God who put the devil, a man slayer, a murderer, a liar in the garden; God totally knew what he was doing with Adam and Eve.

God is sovereign over all things especially something as big as the fall of all humanity.

Adam had no choice according (Romans 8;20)
(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have
Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, [/color]You are God. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

It was God’s choose Adam to sin because God has a greater plan.

If God did not ordain Adam and Eve’s sin; then He is not all knowing.

It was God lowered Adam from a spirit to a living soul and formed him from dust man.

It was God who made Adam and Eve innocent; they did not do it them selves.

It was God who put the tree of good and evil in the garden.

It was God who put the devil, a man slayer, a murderer, a liar in the garden; God totally knew what he was doing with Adam and Eve.

God is sovereign over all things especially something as big as the fall of all humanity.
.
It was God not little Adam and Eve who caused the fall, it was God not little Adam who planned as well as set up Adam and Eve to sin; it is God not Little Adam and Eve who declares: You (God) turn man to destruction, Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse, the creation (A)was subjected to (B)futility, not willingly, But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it.

Not so friend, God did not cause Adam and Eve to sin. What would be the purpose of causing them to sin?
Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

My friend may I suggest a look at the Septuagint as opposed to the Masoretic text. The Septuagint is a translation of the OT Scriptures in Greek. This is what Jesus and the apostles used as their Bible. the Masoretic text varies in places from the Septuagint and is not as accurate. Here is the same passage in the Septuagint.

​

Psalm 90​

​

A Prayer of Moses the man of God.​

90:1Lord, thou hast been our refuge in all generations. 2
Before the mountains existed, and before the earth and
the world were formed, even from age to age, Thou art. 3​

Turn not man back to hislow place, whereas thou saidst,
Return, ye sons of men?

Notice the Septuagint does not translate the passage as destruction.

The Greek word is,

Thayer’s Greek Definitions
G5014 ταπείνωσις tapeinōsis Thayer Definition: 1) lowness, low estate 2) metaphorically 2a) spiritual abasement, leading one to perceive and lament his (moral) littleness and guilt

Notice it does not mean destruction. The Septuagint is much older and translated from more ancient texts than the Masoretic text.

 

[Benoni]

So your point. It is still God who sent the lie. Satan is nothing but a tool in god's hands and has no power unless God ordains that power.

Benoni

You must read the verses before and after...

II Thessalonians 2:10 "And with all deceivableness [deceit] of unrighteousness in [for] them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth,"

God is writing this letter to us personally, and we are responsible for understanding it. We are accountable to God to give answer for our actions. It is you and I, individually, that will stand before God and give our personal answer for the personal handling of His Word. There will be no preacher, friend or family member with you on that judgment day, for they will all be explaining and accounting for their own words and actions. If your pastor is one of the false shepherds, and led many saints astray, his ignorance won't help him or you.
This is something we must think about, our souls are at stake here.

II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion [send them a working of error], that they should a lie;"
If you want to believe a lie, God will allow it; in fact he will help you into the system of deceptions Satan will bring on the earth. Do you really think God will come here and personally show you, and talk to you when you refuse to believe His Word, when He gave it in such detail through the prophets and His Son. If you desire to believe that your going to fly out of here, and refuse His word, He will so block your mind that you will not be capable of understanding truth. God will send the "strong delusion" over your mind. The strong delusion is an act of love given by God for your protection.

II Thessalonians 2:12 "That they all might be damned [judged] who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

This is the reason for the "strong delusion" of verse eleven; "That they might be damned", it would be more accurately translated "condemned". Condemned for not believing the truth in God's Word when given to them. They had the warning, but still followed Satan, and partook in his religious system.
"Pleasure in unrighteousness" is not referring to drunken brawls, or whore houses, but it is a continuation of the subject here at hand. That subject is "worshipping the Antichrist [Satan] as the true Christ." You will take pleasure in that damnable sin; that unrighteous act will be done in your total ignorance. It's easy to say "I'm saved", but saved from what? The subject here has changed from that of verse eight, to "being damned through deception." The traditions of men will change this subject, from "being deceived by Satan, and enjoying it" to petty activities of the day.

http://www.theseason.org/2thess/2thess2.htm

 

[Benoni]

n2thelight

.
Let us look a little closer at this awesome verse especially the Strong’s Concordances reference <9999 >, it is worse then 666.

(KJV) John 3 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:15 That whosoever believeth in him should (not perish,) should be omitted), but have eternal life.16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that (whosoever, should be "all") (believeth, should be that "all believing") in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

The following are a direct quote from Strong’s Concordance.

John 3:15
<9999 > should
<9999 > not
<9999 > perish,
<9999 > but

NT:9999

9999 inserted word (x);

This word was added by the translators for better readability in the English. There is no actual word in the Hebrew/Greek text. The word may be displayed in italics, or in parentheses or other brackets, to indicate that it is not in the original text.


Now we will look at a passage in the New Testament; viz., that precious declaration in John 3:16,

"God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son," etc. We will take into consideration verses 14-17 inclusive; first I will clear up several points of obscurity and error and then give the rendering as it should be.

In verse 15 the words "not perish but" should be omitted; according to the best authorities they have been interpolated, probably from the following verse; they are left out from the New Version.

Strong's Whosoever 3956 pas (pas);including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: KJV-- all (manner of, means), alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

The word "whosoever" in the l5th and l6th verses should be rendered "all"; in the original it is the word usually rendered all throughout the New Testament; it occurs hundreds of times, and it is rendered
"all" in over nine hundred instances, and whosoever in only about forty; the rendering all then is plainly the usual one.

The word rendered "believeth," in the original is a participle, "believing"; the clause should read, "that all, believing in him should not," etc. The words, "believing in him," are explanatory, telling us how "all" are to be saved, viz, by believing in him. In the common version it will be noticed that the participle is, without authority, rendered by the verb "believeth," and the words, "whosoever believeth in him" are thereby made to have a conditional force, as though it read, if they believe in him, implying that some will not believe in him, and hence will perish, and be lost eternally.

But this is not a correct rendering of the original, as I have shown above; the clause is not conditional, but is thrown in, as a participial form, as explanatory of the manner of the world's salvation, by believing in him; this view is fully confirmed by the l9th verse; "for God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved."

Might be saved: Stong's 4982 sozo (sode'-zo); from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saoz, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): KJV-- heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be
(make) whole. The word “might” was added by the translator

Now I will give the whole passage as it ought to be.

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the son of man be lifted up, that all,
believing in him. might have æonial life. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son,
that all, believing in him, might not perish, but have æonial life. For God sent not his Son into the world
to condemn the world but that the world through him be saved."

Thus truthfully translated this passage is one of the grandest and most sweeping declarations of the final universal triumph of God's grace in the salvation of the world, contained in the Bible. It is positive and direct, and mighty enough, could they only appreciate it, to utterly silence all those narrow, shortsighted souls who think that God will only gain a partial victory over the devil, that he will not save the world, but only a portion of it, a vast number being eternally lost. It is very plain why the translators of the common version handled this passage as they did. Their creed would not allow them to accept it just as it reads; it required only a slight change to make it conform to their own idea. They insert the unusual rendering "whosoever," change believing to "believeth," and then, punctuating it accordingly, the passage is "tinkered" so as to harmonize with the creed. Thank God for deliverance from man made creeds!

"Let God be true, though every man be false" (Rom. 3:4).

Young’s Literal John 3:14 `And as Moses did lift up the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up, 15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, 16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. 17 For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;

 

[samy]

Benoni (Son of Trouble), It appears that you are unfamiliar with Greek syntax and grammar. A good starting place would be to take a Greek course on line or at a local Christian college. I would be glad to help out.

Or please translate the following and note the tense, voice, mood, person, and number of the verbs.

[sup]16[/sup]οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενη̂ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πα̂ς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλʼ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον. Jn 3:16 If in fact I am wrong and you do know Greek, would you review for all of us the difference between the present and aorist tense, the active andmiddle voice, the indicative and subjunctive mood. These as seen by you may help us to appreciate your translation of John 3:16. And are you familiar with how to use the apparatus of the Greek NT for reference to manuscript authority? I mean no insult here. If you wish, I will do what I have requested of you. samy We all need to be on the same page. samy

 

[Benoni]

Samy,

I disagree.

Yes Benoni means the son of trouble, but if you were a spiritual man you would understand why Benoni was named Benoni.

A local Christian college would be the last place I would trust, a better term would be a “Babylonian college”.

Most of the differences in scriptural interpretation among Christians is the result of an incomplete knowledge of the plan and purpose of God. Much of what is taught and believed in Christian circles today is derived from the wrong source - Bible study!

That statement may astound you, and you may demand to know why I say that the great mass of confusion in Bible teaching stems from the wrong source - Bible study.

What's wrong with Bible study?

Isn't this very debate in an effort in Bible study?

Ah, there is nothing whatever wrong with Bible study IF WE HAVE THE RIGHT TEACHER TEACHING US. Christians gather together in Bible schools, Bible study groups, Sunday schools, etc., to study the Word of God, but the problem with the vast majority of such groups is that they have the wrong teacher - the human, natural, carnal mind! They try to decipher the deep and wondrous and spiritual mysteries of the Word of God with the human intellect, instead of allowing the One whom God sent to be our teacher, the Holy Spirit of Truth, to unveil to pure minds and transformed hearts the hidden mysteries of the Kingdom of God, and His great plan and purpose. If we all have the right teacher we will all be taught the same thing, and what we learn of Him will be the truth. What He teaches is truth; He cannot give us anything else but truth.

When was the last time God's spirit revealed to you a deep spiritual truth?

.
John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

We have a Hugh religious system out there where the vast majority of christians place their faith in; it is the spirit of truth where I place my faith, our “first love”. Today the answer of His reality can only be found, out side the camp; it is the Christ with in us all; not religion with out is the way; the truth and the light.



1 Corin 2:9
However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"[2] -- 10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
11 The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:

 

[Butch5]

Well, you see it is the Calvinist conclusion that does not fit with the Scriptures. The Calvinist is force to change the meaning of words to reconcile doctrine.

That's quite a charge, but I haven't changed the meaning of any words. I'm merely allowing the context of John 12:32 to determine the meaning of "pas" in the phrase "pas anthropos." See definition 2a below which reads "some of all types." In the context of John 12:32 this would mean some of "every nation," "mankind," "Jews and Gentiles." It makes perfect sense in light of Jesus' new Gentile audience in John 12. He was telling them that his atonement was for them as well as the Jews. In this vein see Revelation 5:9.

Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation...


pas
Thayer Definition:
1) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,everything
2) collectively
2a) some of all types
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: including all the forms of declension
Citing in TDNT: 5:886, 795

I am not arguing that your position does not make sense, however, it is not required. As I mentioned, the verse just before is speaking of the judgment of this world. if we understand verse 32 as you do, are we to understand that is it only all types of men that will be judged or will every single man be judged. You mentioned Rev. 5:9 which I was going to bring up. John doesn't seem to have any difficulty here letting us know that not every single person will be saved, He lets us know that there will be some from every tribe, tongue, and nation. It seems that if this is what he meant in John 12:32 he could easily have stated it as he did here, yet he didn't. While your understanding is possible I don't think it has very much support. On the other hand I think I have given reasonable support for my claim. Not to mention that there are quite a few other verses that speak of God willing all to be saved.

 

[Benoni]

First of all God's judgements are just I would hope you agree with this statement.

Do you know what the Tabernacle of David is? Acts 15:16 -17?

Well, you see it is the Calvinist conclusion that does not fit with the Scriptures. The Calvinist is force to change the meaning of words to reconcile doctrine.

That's quite a charge, but I haven't changed the meaning of any words. I'm merely allowing the context of John 12:32 to determine the meaning of "pas" in the phrase "pas anthropos." See definition 2a below which reads "some of all types." In the context of John 12:32 this would mean some of "every nation," "mankind," "Jews and Gentiles." It makes perfect sense in light of Jesus' new Gentile audience in John 12. He was telling them that his atonement was for them as well as the Jews. In this vein see Revelation 5:9.

Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation...


pas
Thayer Definition:
1) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things,everything
2) collectively
2a) some of all types
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: including all the forms of declension
Citing in TDNT: 5:886, 795

I am not arguing that your position does not make sense, however, it is not required. As I mentioned, the verse just before is speaking of the judgment of this world. if we understand verse 32 as you do, are we to understand that is it only all types of men that will be judged or will every single man be judged. You mentioned Rev. 5:9 which I was going to bring up. John doesn't seem to have any difficulty here letting us know that not every single person will be saved, He lets us know that there will be some from every tribe, tongue, and nation. It seems that if this is what he meant in John 12:32 he could easily have stated it as he did here, yet he didn't. While your understanding is possible I don't think it has very much support. On the other hand I think I have given reasonable support for my claim. Not to mention that there are quite a few other verses that speak of God willing all to be saved.

 

[n2thelight]

Benoni
So your point. It is still God who sent the lie. Satan is nothing but a tool in god's hands and has no power unless God ordains that power.

God did not send the lie,He sent the strong dellussion,so that you would believe the lie...And the only reason He did that is because many refuse to seek the truth thats in His Word.

I also know that satan cant do anything on his own.

Question,I get the impression that you are saying that all shall be saved,is this correct?

 

[Benoni]

Amen. What is the Tabernacle of David?

Acts 15:16-17

 

[Benoni]

Amen. What is the Tabernacle of David?

Acts 15:16-17



What is the difference between strong dellussion and a lie?