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[face2face]

As a side note it's worth stating Saul / Paul was possibly one of the most purest orthodox Jews in all Israel at his time. The High Priest had big plans for young Saul!

LOL Jesus had bigger plans

 

[Carl Emerson]

It's possible the Hellenist Jews thought themselves more superior due to the higher education than the Hebrew speaking Jews.

The conflict is seen in those Jews who clung tenaciously to the use of Hebrew, and who opposed the impress of modern culture. The apostle Paul later identified with the Hebrew brethren - 2 Cor 11:22; Phil. 3:5; Acts 21:40.

Josephus indicates that the opposition of Hebrews to the Grecian Jews was bitter, and expressed itself in the language of the Talmud which
records: "Cursed be he who teaches his son the learning of the Greeks."

Be interested to find a modern example of this conflict?

Possibly some of the science debates which have raged in recent decades have been very divisive?

Orthodox v. Evangelical

F2F

Back in the day - RC latin mass vs. Protestant might be close.

However it was the Grecian Jews who did the trade and Greek was the universal language of the known world.

So the men of the Cloth vs. the tradesmen ?

Still happens today.

 

[Brakelite]

It's possible the Hellenist Jews thought themselves more superior due to the higher education than the Hebrew speaking Jews.

The conflict is seen in those Jews who clung tenaciously to the use of Hebrew, and who opposed the impress of modern culture. The apostle Paul later identified with the Hebrew brethren - 2 Cor 11:22; Phil. 3:5; Acts 21:40.

Josephus indicates that the opposition of Hebrews to the Grecian Jews was bitter, and expressed itself in the language of the Talmud which
records: "Cursed be he who teaches his son the learning of the Greeks."

Be interested to find a modern example of this conflict?

Possibly some of the science debates which have raged in recent decades have been very divisive?

Orthodox v. Evangelical

F2F

Anyone familiar with prophecy would recognise the predominant Greek nature of Babylon the Great, that apostate Christian institution that is to dominate world politics and religion in the near future...
“1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. ”
Revelation 13:1-2 KJV

“After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it. ”
Daniel 7:6

By the time of the rise of this beast in Revelation 13, those empires of Daniel, as literal local powers, were long gone. But their spiritual influence clearly was still manifesting itself in this latter day power, as well as influences from the Babylonian, Persian, and Roman empires. But the Greek by all appearances seemed to dominate. Greek language, philosophy, and political structure (majority rule) is still prevalent in modern western society. In contrast to this, Jewish society in the OT was a constitutional Republic. Until they demanded a king. Then they went back into slavery to every king that followed. Where do we find a constitutional Republic today? It's worth protecting, and avoiding like the plague any suggestion that the Church, like Israel, should adopt a king. Although sadly, I think it's too late for that.
What has all this got to do with Acts 6? Probably not a lot.

 

[Brakelite]

As a side note it's worth stating Saul / Paul was possibly one of the most purest orthodox Jews in all Israel at his time. The High Priest had big plans for young Saul!

LOL Jesus had bigger plans

Mmm. The Pharisees were intent on making their proselytes according to their own image. Jesus makes His chosen in His own image.
“13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.....
....15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. ”
Matthew 23:13, 15 KJV

 

[face2face]

So the men of the Cloth vs. the tradesmen ?

Still happens today.

I've seen this first hand. The corporate exec who due to his business acumen thinks he has greater wisdom and understanding than the tradie is just terrible. Care is needed if you are successful in the things of the world and think that translates to the things of God.
F2F

 

[quietthinker]

Sounds like the difference between Love and Law ???

The gift given in Jesus is mouth stopping. It renders all and any performance in man, even the best as woefully inadequate. Our focus becomes riveted on that which appears glorious to us, either God's gift or our perceived convoluted piety. Ultimately our words reveal either reality.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I've seen this first hand. The corporate exec who due to his business acumen thinks he has greater wisdom and understanding than the tradie is just terrible. Care is needed if you are successful in the things of the world and think that translates to the things of God.
F2F

Sadly, sometimes, that is the leadership resource some congregations end up with.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The gift given in Jesus is mouth stopping. It renders all and any performance in man, even the best as woefully inadequate. Our focus becomes riveted on that which appears glorious to us, either God's gift or our perceived convoluted piety. Ultimately our words reveal either reality.

Hey - you speak of what can only come from direct encounter with Him - such as seems to have been rare in recent times.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Anyone familiar with prophecy would recognise the predominant Greek nature of Babylon the Great, that apostate Christian institution that is to dominate world politics and religion in the near future...
“1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. ”
Revelation 13:1-2 KJV

“After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it. ”
Daniel 7:6

By the time of the rise of this beast in Revelation 13, those empires of Daniel, as literal local powers, were long gone. But their spiritual influence clearly was still manifesting itself in this latter day power, as well as influences from the Babylonian, Persian, and Roman empires. But the Greek by all appearances seemed to dominate. Greek language, philosophy, and political structure (majority rule) is still prevalent in modern western society. In contrast to this, Jewish society in the OT was a constitutional Republic. Until they demanded a king. Then they went back into slavery to every king that followed. Where do we find a constitutional Republic today? It's worth protecting, and avoiding like the plague any suggestion that the Church, like Israel, should adopt a king. Although sadly, I think it's too late for that.
What has all this got to do with Acts 6? Probably not a lot.

Actually it has, because Stephen typifies the real Kingship displayed as He reigns in us.

 

[quietthinker]

Hey - you speak of what can only come from direct encounter with Him - such as seems to have been rare in recent times.

I have discovered to my joy that Jesus is my Saviour; not my theology, not my behaviour, not anything I can bring to the party.
There are many accusing voices, particularly religious ones, they tell me I'm not up to scratch in one way or the other yet who can seperate me from the love of my Abba.....nothing in all creation. This is where I glory; it is my security and oh how I want to share it with others.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I have discovered to my joy that Jesus is my Saviour; not my theology, not my behaviour, not anything I can bring to the party.
There are many accusing voices, particularly religious ones, they tell me I'm not up to scratch in one way or the other yet who can seperate me from the love of my Abba.....nothing in all creation. This is where I glory; it is my security and oh how I want to share it with others.

Yes - I this relate to...

Can you describe how you personally came to this realisation - It sounds like you must have had some encounter with Him.

 

[face2face]

There are many accusing voices, particularly religious ones, they tell me I'm not up to scratch in one way or the other yet who can separate me from the love of my Abba.....nothing in all creation.

Well, speaking to our interactions it was never about "you not being up to scratch" or "trying to separate you from Christ" but rather, revealing to you the error in your belief. The doctrine of Universalism undermines every teaching the Lord gave, in terms of the cost of discipleship through to the coming judgement. Many times you have been shown this truth by many forum members and yet you persist. So while you can speak of your love for Abba, unfortunately it's a love without understanding.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Well, speaking to our interactions it was never about "you not being up to scratch" or "trying to separate you from Christ" but rather, revealing to you the error in your belief. The doctrine of Universalism undermines every teaching the Lord gave, in terms of the cost of discipleship through to the coming judgement. Many times you have been shown this truth by many forum members and yet you persist. So while you can speak of your love for Abba, unfortunately it's a love without understanding.

Whoops - do I smell a scrap ???

Let's just deal with issues as they arise in a friendly manner.

 

[face2face]

Whoops - do I smell a scrap ???

Let's just deal with issues as they arise in a friendly manner.

No scrap, just ensuring everything is above board.

 

[GodsGrace]

It's true we don't know, however, God's Grace will see us through.

Are you familiar with Thomas Hawkes?

The Martyrdom of Thomas Haukes by John Fox – Grace Online Library

graceonlinelibrary.org

Much love!

No. Not familiar with Thomas Hawkes.
Doesn't sound any different than many other horrors.
Why do you think this is different?

I'm going to have to insist that we don't know HOW we'll react to any situation unless and until we're faced with it.
This is just general life experience.
If you're right that God will give us all the grace to face whatever situation we're in....I would only be grateful.
I do however, know one person that had to flee from Ruanda because of persecution and he had the opportunity to leave.
Wonder what you or I would have done?

 

[marks]

No. Not familiar with Thomas Hawkes.
Doesn't sound any different than many other horrors.
Why do you think this is different?

I'm going to have to insist that we don't know HOW we'll react to any situation unless and until we're faced with it.
This is just general life experience.
If you're right that God will give us all the grace to face whatever situation we're in....I would only be grateful.
I do however, know one person that had to flee from Ruanda because of persecution and he had the opportunity to leave.
Wonder what you or I would have done?

I appreciate his testimony even in the midst of what we consider a horrible death, yet he had the strength to encourage the others, to declare God's deliverance.

I trust that God will do the same for me, should such a time come.

Sometimes God may deliver us from persecution, and sometimes He may lead us into it. For me, it's all about, trust Him for today, what will happen today, and leave tomorrow to itself.

No, Thomas didn't suffer differently than others, but his testimony touchs me across the centuries.

Much love!

 

[GodsGrace]

Getting back to Acts 6:
It states in the very first sentences that the Christians were growing at a great rate, going back to Acts 5.
The reason for this, as far as I can tell, is that there were healings being done and a husband and wife were struck dead because they stole money and this was witnessed by some. I'd say that maybe fear had something to do with this too - the growing numbers of believers.
We could say it was the working of the Holy Spirit; but everything that happens will be caused by men even though God is at work in them.
I do wonder why the numbers of Christians was growing so rapidly at that time and instead it's waning today. Certainly it's God's plan at work in some way.

Be back later with more comments...

 

[GodsGrace]

I appreciate his testimony even in the midst of what we consider a horrible death, yet he had the strength to encourage the others, to declare God's deliverance.

I trust that God will do the same for me, should such a time come.

Sometimes God may deliver us from persecution, and sometimes He may lead us into it. For me, it's all about, trust Him for today, what will happen today, and leave tomorrow to itself.

No, Thomas didn't suffer differently than others, but his testimony touchs me across the centuries.

Much love!

Anything that encourages us is good.
Personally, for me, I don't find these deaths to be encouraging.
I find horrible how man could treat man.

Italy's towns have patron saints.
The patron saint of the small town where I was born was only 19 years old when he was roasted to death for preaching the gospel.
These stories just make me lose sleep.
I doubt I could ever be so brave.

 

[Johann]

I appreciate his testimony even in the midst of what we consider a horrible death, yet he had the strength to encourage the others, to declare God's deliverance.

I trust that God will do the same for me, should such a time come.

Sometimes God may deliver us from persecution, and sometimes He may lead us into it. For me, it's all about, trust Him for today, what will happen today, and leave tomorrow to itself.

No, Thomas didn't suffer differently than others, but his testimony touchs me across the centuries.

Much love!

Peter (Simon Peter)
Death: Peter is believed to have been crucified in Rome under Emperor Nero, around 64 AD.
Tradition: According to church tradition (notably by church father Origen), Peter requested to be crucified upside down because he felt unworthy to die in the same manner as Jesus.
Source: This is recorded by early Christian writers such as Eusebius in his Ecclesiastical History.

2. Andrew
Death: Andrew is traditionally believed to have been crucified on an X-shaped cross (now called St. Andrew’s Cross) in the Greek city of Patras.
Tradition: It is said that he continued to preach to those around him for two days while hanging on the cross.
Source: Early church writers and tradition hold this account, but there are no primary sources directly from his time.

3. James (Son of Zebedee, also known as James the Greater)
Death: James was the first apostle to be martyred. He was beheaded by King Herod Agrippa I around 44 AD.
Tradition: His death is the only apostolic martyrdom recorded in the Bible.
Source: The Book of Acts 12:1-2 explicitly mentions that James was killed by the sword under Herod.

4. John (Son of Zebedee)
Death: John is traditionally believed to have died of old age, likely the only apostle not to have been martyred.
Tradition: Early church writings claim that John survived attempted martyrdom (such as being boiled in oil) and was exiled to the island of Patmos, where he wrote the Book of Revelation. He later returned to Ephesus, where he lived until his natural death.
Source: Early Christian writers such as Irenaeus and Eusebius suggest John lived to an old age.

5. Philip
Death: Philip is believed to have been martyred in Hierapolis (modern-day Turkey), possibly by crucifixion or being hanged.
Tradition: Some traditions suggest he was crucified upside down like Peter, while others suggest he was martyred by stoning.
Source: Early Christian writers like Polycrates of Ephesus refer to Philip’s death, though details vary.

6. Bartholomew (Nathanael)
Death: Bartholomew is believed to have been martyred in Armenia by being flayed alive and then beheaded.
Tradition: Bartholomew is said to have preached in India, Mesopotamia, Persia, and Armenia before his martyrdom.
Source: Church traditions, particularly from Armenian sources, recount this gruesome death.

7. Matthew (Levi, the tax collector)
Death: There are conflicting traditions regarding Matthew’s death. Some sources suggest he was martyred in Ethiopia by being stabbed, while others say he died naturally.
Tradition: Church traditions vary widely, and there is no single consistent account of his martyrdom.
Source: Accounts from church fathers like Clement of Alexandria and others reference his evangelism but do not always agree on his death.

8. Thomas (Doubting Thomas)
Death: Thomas is traditionally believed to have been martyred in India, where he is said to have been speared to death by local religious authorities.
Tradition: According to Indian Christian tradition, Thomas was active in the southern part of India (Kerala) and established Christian communities there.
Source: Early Christian writings like the Acts of Thomas describe his missionary work in India, though they are not considered historically reliable in all aspects.

9. James (Son of Alphaeus, also known as James the Less)
Death: There are various traditions about James' death, with some accounts suggesting he was stoned to death by the Jews in Jerusalem and others suggesting he was thrown from the Temple and then beaten to death.
Tradition: This James is sometimes confused with James, the brother of Jesus, who was also a leader in the Jerusalem church and martyred around 62 AD.
Source: Josephus, a first-century Jewish historian, records the death of James, though there is debate about whether this refers to the same James.

10. Simon the Zealot
Death: Simon is said to have been martyred in various locations, depending on the tradition. Some accounts say he was crucified in Persia, while others suggest he was sawed in half in Iberia (modern-day Georgia).
Tradition: His missionary journeys are poorly documented, and details about his death are unclear.
Source: Church tradition, but without strong historical evidence.

11. Thaddeus (Jude or Judas, son of James)
Death: Tradition holds that Jude was martyred in Persia, possibly by being beaten to death with a club or ax.
Tradition: Thaddeus (Jude) is credited with spreading Christianity in Mesopotamia and Persia.
Source: Various traditions, including writings from early Christian sources, suggest martyrdom but with varying details.

12. Matthias (Replacement for Judas Iscariot)
Death: According to tradition, Matthias was martyred in Jerusalem or possibly Ethiopia, either by being stoned and then beheaded.
Tradition: Matthias was chosen by lot to replace Judas Iscariot after Judas’ betrayal and death (Acts 1:23-26).
Source: Early church tradition is inconsistent regarding the specific manner of his death.

13. Paul (Apostle to the Gentiles)
Death: Paul was not one of the original Twelve Apostles but was later considered an apostle. He is traditionally believed to have been beheaded in Rome under Emperor Nero around 64-67 AD.
Tradition: As a Roman citizen, Paul would have been granted a less painful death (beheading) rather than crucifixion.
Source: Early Christian writers like Clement of Rome and Eusebius reference Paul's martyrdom in Rome.

While the Bible only records the martyrdom of James, son of Zebedee, and briefly mentions other apostles facing persecution, most accounts of their deaths come from later traditions and writings by early Christian historians. Some of these traditions are widely accepted within the church, while others remain speculative or vary between different regions of the early Christian world.

I have seen pain, witnessed death and wonder--would self preservation kick in under duress?
J.

 

[marks]

Anything that encourages us is good.
Personally, for me, I don't find these deaths to be encouraging.
I find horrible how man could treat man.

Italy's towns have patron saints.
The patron saint of the small town where I was born was only 19 years old when he was roasted to death for preaching the gospel.
These stories just make me lose sleep.
I doubt I could ever be so brave.

We can do all things through Christ who strengthens us.

Much love!