From Saint to sinner, is it possible?

[BarneyFife]

I have been told that OSAS is the lot for every Saint, but is it also not possible for a saint to fall in the twinkling of an eye from Saint to Sinner?

The downward path to perdition is generally gradual and strewn with conviction and occasions conducive to repentance. People do not slip in an out of a "saved" condition with the frequency as is often suggested. God is in the business of saving men--not looking for opportunities to banish them from his kingdom. Twinkling of an eye? Distortions of the character of God are the cause of every false doctrine and sin.

 

[BarneyFife]

We can repent.

Salvation is by grace through faith. So grace must come before faith. Does repentance come before faith, to which every man is granted a measure?

All is of grace--All.

 

[Enoch111]

but is it also not possible for a saint to fall in the twinkling of an eye from Saint to Sinner?

Not if you understand what God and Christ have done. So it is now up to you to read and understand what is revealed in Scripture.

 

[Lambano]

okay then.
I think fudge means tomatoes.

Does that make ketchup chocolate sauce?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I used to eat fudge and not tomatoes.
Now I eat tomatoes and not fudge.

Bob, do people sometimes spell your name backwards?

 

[Pearl]

I think "repent" means to stop sinning.

Re-pent means to re-think. And when re-think everything we can see where we have sinned and turn away from our sin and towards God's ways. From death to life.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I couldn't find the exact quote, but it goes something like this:

"Repentance is agreeing with God who you are, who He is, what you've done, and what needs to change. Repentance isn't changing; it is God's methodology for changing us."

I had my doubts about this definition when I first heard it (and I still do), but time and experience have given me a different perspective on it, that this is not just a passive "I'll keep doing what I'm doing and wait for God to fix it" definition of repentance.

I kind of like that definition!
Yeah, I agree, it’s not passive. It’s a lot of struggle to leave the way you have always thought and begin to agree with God. The world, your own flesh and the devil work in concert to prevent losing you. So the renewing of your mind is struggle, it is not passive, it’s actually a bit violent of a struggle with your enemies (world, flesh, devil.) you are trying to escape them, they’re trying to hold you. (But I CANT collect only enough for the day Lord! That’s not how the world works and I will be living under a bridge eating cat food in my old age if I don’t gather and amass two million dollars for retirement!) It’s Israel in the desert with the manna. It’s unbelief. It’s the opposite of daily trust. I won’t go on and on with more examples. It’s usually the point of temporal provision and worry over it that we get stuck, just like them in the desert winding up with a jar full of worms.

But after you are in agreement with God, you will most likely struggle to try to change your heart, since you now agree with God, it’s got to change. and that’s the part you DO have to become passive in, at least eventually. You can strive to keep your murder in your heart where no man sees it and you can make your outside look pleasant to them, but you cannot change your heart. And parents and society have already taught us we should hide and keep these angers and resentments (these murders as your renewed mind sees it) at others inside, for the good of self and society. You can’t even really comprehend what the heck it MEANS to pick up your cross and follow. But you most likely will struggle to try to do this all. But this is the part God has to do. If you don’t believe me about that, examine yourself, shadow yourself, and take note of the quick flare of anger or resentment inside yourself before you catch it and keep it inside. Or if you can’t examine yourself like you are an odd bug to look at and watch, you can look and see when it happens to others. If you are looking directly at their face the exact moment it happens, you literally SEE that split second of anger and offendedness and quick burst of reddening of face from the rush of blood as the heart begins to beat faster, the slight tightening of the jaw, before they catch it. It’s only for a second, but it’s quite ugly if you catch it before it is pulled back in. The murder has already occurred, it has just then been quickly hidden from others, like a shark fin suddenly breaking up out of the water and sinking back into it just as suddenly. And what good is the self control of quickly hiding the murder that has just occurred? God certainly saw it. And He sees it when you leave and then later pull it back up to fume and resent over it, murdering a second time, like a serial killer who has saved some token so he can pull it back out later to relive the murder.

That’s what you can’t stop or change. That’s what you may try and try to stop and to fix that you can’t. Because it is IN you. So you eventually have to give up and say, it’s useless, I cannot kill my own self, you will have to do it Lord or it won’t be done. I need you to kill this enemy of mine and Yours. Please do it, I cannot find rest from this enemy that keeps rising up to torment me. That is the point where you willingly pick up your cross and are willing to go to your death. It’s the point where you have truly seen yourself and want to die for Him to be your life.

So that is why I say the renewing of your mind into agreement with God still does NOT give you the power to DO what you now agree with.

And sin is very deceitful. It works against the renewing of your mind to an outer keeping and the outside of the cup. Sin argues with God and deceives us to our death. It says, no, that’s nonsense that anger in your heart is murder. Murder is outward only and you have never killed anyone so you have at least kept that law all your life. It is still murder in Gods eyes, whether it actually proceeds to the outside with a gun or not.

 

[Bob Estey]

Bob, I sure hope that's not what it means. That puts the focus of our trust on our own ability to stop sinning, rather than on God's grace, mercy, forgiveness, and love.

I'm talking about both external sins that others can see and internal sins of the heart that only God can see, such as pride and arrogance, envy, self-centeredness, sexual lust, desire for material things, a lack of love and compassion for others, etc. See Mark 7:20-23. These are the root-cause of all the external sins.

So, we base our trust for our salvation on our ability to stop sinning. Then when we fail and we commit the same sin, who do we have left that we can trust?

When Jesus told us to repent, I don't think he was saying, "Keep sinning."

 

[Bob Estey]

Salvation is by grace through faith. So grace must come before faith. Does repentance come before faith, to which every man is granted a measure?

All is of grace--All.

Grace is all well and good, but the Lord expects us to learn from his mistakes, and he has a paddle.

 

[Bob Estey]

Bob, do people sometimes spell your name backwards?

All right, now you've gone too far. I'm very smart. Back in second or third grade, I was the second quickest in the whole class at adding numbers at the blackboard. Only Jolene Lansgaard was faster.

 

[Bob Estey]

Re-pent means to re-think. And when re-think everything we can see where we have sinned and turn away from our sin and towards God's ways. From death to life.

Technically, "repent" might mean "turn," or in this context, "turn from your sin." I'm quite sure God wants us to stop sinning. After all, he told us not to (commit adultery, bear false witness, etc.).

 

[Bob Estey]

Salvation is by grace through faith. So grace must come before faith. Does repentance come before faith, to which every man is granted a measure?

All is of grace--All.

By the way, Barny, I was talking with Eleanora Poultice the other day, and she thinks you could become another Leonard Blush.

 

[Pearl]

Technically, "repent" might mean "turn," or in this context, "turn from your sin." I'm quite sure God wants us to stop sinning. After all, he told us not to (commit adultery, bear false witness, etc.).

Absolutely. And also bear in mind that 'sin' covers more than sexual sin, it also covers pride and rage and gluttony and unkindness and cruelty etc.

 

[BarneyFife]

By the way, Barny, I was talking with Eleanora Poultice the other day, and she thinks you could become another Leonard Blush.

I wouldn't tell just anybody this, mind you, but I don't know how much I can trust her. You know she bears an awful uncanny resemblance to "Big Maude" Tyler, one of those 3 escaped women convicts I rounded up last year (with Andy's and Charlie O'Malley's help, o' course). And that Jalene, she looks a lot like Daphne, one o' them Fun Girls.

 

[Bob Estey]

I wouldn't tell just anybody this, mind you, but I don't know how much I can trust her. You know she bears an awful uncanny resemblance to "Big Maude" Tyler, one of those 3 escaped women convicts I rounded up last year (with Andy's and Charlie O'Malley's help, o' course). And that Jalene, she looks a lot like Daphne, one o' them Fun Girls.

I thought Floyd was awfully helpful rounding those two gals up, but the important thing is that here is your chance to becomes a star.

 

[Lambano]

When Jesus told us to repent, I don't think he was saying, "Keep sinning."

Brother, please be careful about throwing that one around haphazardly. Repentance may not be what we think it is.

For I joyfully agree with the law of God in the inner person, but I see a different law in the parts of my body waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin, the law which is in my body’s parts. (Romans 7:22-23)

God sees the heart. A man may be able to have iron-clad control over his behavior, but in his heart be arrogant and unloving. Contrary-wise, a person in his heart may well agree with God what needs to be changed within him, but for whatever reason does not have the power to change it. God can and does sovereignly choose to leave a child in their sin in this life to keep them humble, so that He can say, as He did to Paul, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.”

It breaks my heart when a believer with some addiction or besetting sin can no longer trust God to save them because "first I have to stop sinning". Then they just slip away into the darkness.

 

[Bob Estey]

Brother, please be careful about throwing that one around haphazardly. Repentance may not be what we think it is.

For I joyfully agree with the law of God in the inner person, but I see a different law in the parts of my body waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin, the law which is in my body’s parts. (Romans 7:22-23)

God sees the heart. A man may be able to have iron-clad control over his behavior, but in his heart be arrogant and unloving. Contrary-wise, a person in his heart may well agree with God what needs to be changed within him, but for whatever reason does not have the power to change it. God can and does sovereignly choose to leave a child in their sin in this life to keep them humble, so that He can say, as He did to Paul, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.”

It breaks my heart when a believer with some addiction or besetting sin can no longer trust God to save them because "first I have to stop sinning". Then they just slip away into the darkness.

I guess you can define "repent" any way it suits you, but if it doesn't mean "stop sinning," then it has no value at all, does it?

 

[Lambano]

I guess you can define "repent" any way it suits you, but if it doesn't mean "stop sinning," then it has no value at all, does it?

I'm saying that God's measure of a man's repentance may not be the same as our human metrics.

 

[Lambano]

But this is the part God has to do. If you don’t believe me about that, examine yourself, shadow yourself, and take note of the quick flare of anger or resentment inside yourself before you catch it and keep it inside.

Like when somebody disagrees with me on an internet forum? How dare they! (Yes, I know that burst of anger all too well.)

The more pride we have, the more other people’s pride irritates us. (C.S. Lewis)

 

[dev553344]

I'm saying that God's measure of a man's repentance may not be the same as our human metrics.

I agree somewhat. For mentally ill people have a hard time being normal and conducting normal affairs. I think God will judge them accordingly. I think God can remove our sins when he washes us clean with the blood of the lamb, which is a sacrament type. Before that we may not be able to overcome our sins. And he is in control of that miracle not man.