From the pen of Ellen White

[Hobie]

The Catholic Church doesn't reject the idea of private revelations. And, again, there are people within her own Church that expressed critical and favorable opinions of Maria Valtorta's writings. Additionally, there are those who lend credence to her claims:

(I) The results from the mathematical analysis of Maria Valtorta's Work by Professor Emilio Matricciani and Dr. Liberato De Caro, where they concluded:

“In conclusion, what do these findings mean? That Maria Valtorta is such a good writer to be able to modulate the linguistic parameters in so many different ways and as a function of character of the plot and type of literary text, so as to cover almost the entire range of the Italian literature? Or that visions and dictations really occurred and she was only a mystical, very intelligent and talented “writing tool”? Of course, no answer grounded in science can be given to the latter question.”


(II) The results from the astronomical and meteorological analysis of Maria Valtorta's Work by Professor Emilio Matricciani and Dr. Liberato De Caro, where they concluded:

“It seems that she has written down observations and facts that really happened at the time of Jesus’ life, as a real witness of them would have done. The question arises, unsolved from a point of view exclusively rational, how all this is possible because what Maria Valtorta writes down cannot, in any way, be traced back to her fantasy or to her astronomical and meteorological knowledge. In conclusion, if from one hand the scientific inquire has evidenced all the surprising and unexpected results reported and discussed in this paper, on the other hand our actual scientific knowledge cannot readily explain how these results are possible.”

(III) In David Webster, M.Div.'s chapter "Proof by Geography and Topography and Archaeology" of A Summa and Encyclopedia to Maria Valtorta’s Extraordinary Work, he relates:

“An additional line of incontrovertible evidence (which Valtorta was encouraged by Jesus to include for the benefit of “the difficult doctors” of the Church) deals with the vast amount of geographical, climatic, agricultural, historical, astronomical, and cartographical information given in her work. Authorities in these fields have verified the accuracy of what she has reported with appropriate astonishment. Valtorta accurately identifies this agricultural and climatic information that is often unique to Palestine with the appropriate calendar period which she often specifically identifies. Without any evidence of planning and with hardly any corrections, Valtorta ends up with a perfectly flowing 3½ year story line with Jesus appropriately in Jerusalem and Judea for Passover and Pentecost in all four spring seasons, and at the Tabernacles in all three fall seasons of His ministry. Valtorta shows Jesus to have traversed the land of Palestine from one end to another in at least six cycles (some 4,000 miles), ministering in some 350 named locations, including places in Palestine known only to specialized archaeologists. Not once, however, does she have Jesus (or any one of the other 500 characters) in a place inconsistent with either the story line or distance or timing necessities.”

(IV) In professional engineer Jean-François Lavère's The Valtorta Enigma, he writes:

“The work [The Poem of the Man-God] overflows with exact data from the viewpoint of history, topography, architecture, geography, ethnology, chronology, etc. Furthermore, Maria Valtorta often provides precise details known only by some scholars, and in certain cases, she even records details totally unknown at the time she recorded them, and which archeology, history, or science have later confirmed.”

See also the chapter "Proofs of the Supernatural Origin of Maria Valtorta's Visions Described in Her Work" in A Summa and Encyclopedia to Maria Valtorta’s Extraordinary Work.


There will always be those who reject the truth. Just saying.

I can only point you to Gods Word..

2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

 

[The Learner]

oh boy not keeping up

 

[BarneyFife]

oh boy not keeping up

Gone off topic for the most part.

:)

 

[Brakelite]

The Catholic Church doesn't reject the idea of private revelations. And, again, there are people within her own Church that expressed critical and favorable opinions of Maria Valtorta's writings. Additionally, there are those who lend credence to her claims:

(I) The results from the mathematical analysis of Maria Valtorta's Work by Professor Emilio Matricciani and Dr. Liberato De Caro, where they concluded:



(II) The results from the astronomical and meteorological analysis of Maria Valtorta's Work by Professor Emilio Matricciani and Dr. Liberato De Caro, where they concluded:



(III) In David Webster, M.Div.'s chapter "Proof by Geography and Topography and Archaeology" of A Summa and Encyclopedia to Maria Valtorta’s Extraordinary Work, he relates:



(IV) In professional engineer Jean-François Lavère's The Valtorta Enigma, he writes:



See also the chapter "Proofs of the Supernatural Origin of Maria Valtorta's Visions Described in Her Work" in A Summa and Encyclopedia to Maria Valtorta’s Extraordinary Work.

There will always be those who reject the truth.

Just saying.

As Hobie said... channelling. Fallen angels were present at the time of Jesus and observed everything that took place. It is no surprise that they use that information to deceive the unwary today.

 

[Brakelite]

What Was Secured by the Death of Christ
By Mrs. E. G. White?

Thank you for the above. Before I became a Seventh Day Adventist, I was a pentecostal. It's ironic that in the churches I attended, (AOG for the most part) I heard much 'prophecy' , and much teaching about false prophets. So when I began to learn more about Ellen White, and having never heard of her at all previously, I had some serious doubts as to who and what she was. Much I would say as so many do here today, and for the same reason. I had never read any of her work. Just as so many today in this forum and judge her through second hand innuendo, slander, and internet keyboard ex- Adventists.
Then I found some books in a second hand shop. The first 3 , big bulky illustrated "Conflict of the Ages" series. Patriarchs and Prophets.
Prophets and Kings.
Desire of Ages.
Scored for about 10$ the lot. They were in great condition, despite being more than 50 years old. (I also found a 120 year old copy of 'Daniel and Revelation', but that's another story).

After reading Patriarchs and Prophets, I was convinced. That woman loved Jesus. She lived Jesus. Everything she wrote was centered on Jesus and His matchless love for fallen sinners. I had always been an avid reader of not just the Bible, but Christian material. I had never read anything so profound, deep, sensitive, and Bible focused as those books. And it led me to hunger for more of Jesus in my own life. To thirst for righteousness and truth. And not once, ever in all her writings, did she ever exalt herself or demand people to read her work and judge scripture through the light of her writings. Never. It was always scripture first and last. Always. She wanted her work to by judged by scripture.
And I came to accept that Ellen White was no false prophet, but an essential final days voice of prophecy in the mould of John the Baptist...I must decrease while He must increase... preparing the way of the Lord, bringing together fathers and children and presenting in clear beautiful light the true nature and character of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.
I cannot recommend those books enough. To all reading this thread, I challenge you to read those 3 books and then return here and explain why Ellen G. White is a false prophet and cult leader. Then I will take you seriously as an unbiased seeker for truth, and not a shoot from the hip type prejudiced defender of others false opinions.

 

[Brakelite]

The Catholic Church doesn't reject the idea of private revelations. And, again, there are people within her own Church that expressed critical and favorable opinions of Maria Valtorta's writings. Additionally, there are those who lend credence to her claims:

(I) The results from the mathematical analysis of Maria Valtorta's Work by Professor Emilio Matricciani and Dr. Liberato De Caro, where they concluded:



(II) The results from the astronomical and meteorological analysis of Maria Valtorta's Work by Professor Emilio Matricciani and Dr. Liberato De Caro, where they concluded:



(III) In David Webster, M.Div.'s chapter "Proof by Geography and Topography and Archaeology" of A Summa and Encyclopedia to Maria Valtorta’s Extraordinary Work, he relates:



(IV) In professional engineer Jean-François Lavère's The Valtorta Enigma, he writes:



See also the chapter "Proofs of the Supernatural Origin of Maria Valtorta's Visions Described in Her Work" in A Summa and Encyclopedia to Maria Valtorta’s Extraordinary Work.

There will always be those who reject the truth.

Just saying.

I would place her on a simila plane as I would Ignatius Loyola and his "spiritual exercises".
Ellen White was not a 'visionar'y or 'mystic' in the same sense as Catholics label their more famous saints.

 

[Brakelite]

Ellen White claimed to have received visions from God, just as Maria Valtorta did, and that's called a visionary, and considered a Christian mystic.



Do you call Jesus's spokespersons thousands of years ago "channelers"? Nope. You even quote Ellen G. White, a woman considered a visionary and mystic like Maria Valtorta, yet you dismiss the latter without investigating the wealth of proof I handed you that shows she truly was. Jesus could even choose you today, tomorrow, or any other day in the future to be His spokesman like Maria Valtorta and others. What then?



And, I challenge you to read The Poem of the Man-God: Vols. I-V, which you can for free here, and then return here and explain why Maria Valtorta isn't a spokesman of God. Do you accept?

Nearly 50 years ago I visited a friend, and noticed a book on his coffee table. I had never heard of not seen this book before and put of curiosity, picked it up to peruse. I felt nauseous. I put it down, and began to feel better. I picked it up again and again, felt unwell, but worse than the first time, so much so I nearly threw up in my friends living room. I put the book down again, and 5 minutes later felt okay. Now I was a newly born again Christian, and was not familiar with the many ways that God speaks to us. It never occurred to me that God was saying to me, don't read that book. I picked it up again, same result. I may be slow, but I'm not altogether stupid. I put that book down and resolved never to pick it up again. It was the Book of Mormon.
I was pondering taking up your challenge, and thinking, I'm a gold miner, not a silver miner, but the Lord said in my spirit, go to the link and see what you will find. So I did. I read the introduction, and the next 3 paragraphs. That was enough. God doesn't need to make me unwell these days I hear Him when He speaks, and in those first few paragraphs I found all i need to come back here and state, unequivocally, this woman is not receiving anything from God, but from Satan. Quote...She possessed the greatest purity that a creature of God could have. I grew up Catholic. I understand the "immaculate conception". I know it doesn't apply to Jesus, but to Mary's conception. It stems from the belief that Jesus couldn't inhabit the womb of a common human and live a sinless life, or He would be tainted, so needed a pure mother so as not to inherit the traits of humanity. That my friend is a lie. A deception designed by Satan to take Rnt focus away from Jesus, to Mary, hence her gradual elevation to today where she now presumably holds the lofty position of co-redemptrix and Mediatrix. I don't need to read any further. I reject her as a prophet of God. Visionary maybe, but Satan can give visions. Loyola and classic example. No. No. No. Not going there.

 

[Brakelite]

Firstly, my challenge was to read all five volumes of The Poem of the Man-God before making a conclusion about Maria Valtorta, just as the challenge you presented was to read all three books by Ellen G. White before making a conclusion about her.

Secondly, prior to your even reading the first three paragraphs of The Poem of the Man-God, you've made it clear it me in the past that you already reject Maria Valtorta as being a spokesman of God. Why? Because she's Catholic. You just confirmed it, despite trying to appear not prejudiced, because you refused to read the entire Work as challenged, and didn't even explain why it's not possible that your understanding regarding certain content within it is wrong.

By the way, the first chapter is a vision of Mary's parents and later visions of their conception of Mary, the future Mother of God in the flesh: Jesus. That in and of itself is a position unlike anyone else in the past, present, or future. It takes a certain kind of person to contain the Most Holy Pure God, and it's not as though Mary was born Immaculate of Her own doing. God did that. What She did do of Her own free will was maintain a good will, holiness, and purity throughout Her life, by God's Grace. If you kept reading, you'd read the visions of Jesus's conception, birth, childhood, three year ministry, trial, torture, death, Resurrection, Ascension, and events following the Ascension. And, throughout Jesus's life on Earth, from the visions you'd learn that Mary always directed people to Her Son, and that She constantly prayed and served others in some way, and She still does. You take issue with Mary's title "Co-redemptrix"? The prefix "co-" means "with: together: joint: jointly" and "having a usually lesser share in duty or responsibility". Mary didn't do the act of redeeming like Jesus did, but She assisted Him in accomplishing that in various ways, which makes Her a "co-redeemer" because, for example, without Her bringing Jesus, our Redeemer, into the world to begin with, Jesus wouldn't have been able to redeem, would He? She assisted Him in helping Him accomplish what He came to do in other ways too throughout His life. And, She suffered along with Him, just as Simeon prophesied when She presented Jesus in the Temple. All suffering is redemptive as Jesus taught.

God isn't prejudiced, so why should you be? God speaks to whomever, whenever, and about whatever He wills. That doesn't mean there's not false claims of being God's spokesman, because there are, but it does mean that there's true claims too, and thus you shouldn't automatically reject them either, even if they come from a Catholic.

I dint need to swim the entire Arctic ocean to know its cold.

 

[Brakelite]

That's prejudice.

No, it's discernment. And if folk tread the first few paragraphs of any of EGWs books and cannot tolerate what they read, who am I to coerce them to continue regardless? I don't expect anyone to read EGW if they believe it conflicts with Scripture. The challenge was to at least read her works in person and tests judgment. I did begin to read your mystic's work and as I said, ibelieve it conflicts with Scripture, as do many, if not all, Catholic teachings.

 

[quietthinker]

You said, "To all reading this thread, I challenge you to read those 3 books and then return here and explain why Ellen G. White is a false prophet". It's not coercion to complete a challenge one chooses to accept and finish, regardless of what it entails. I challenged you to read all five volumes by Maria Valtorta. You accepted my challenge and you should've finished it, regardless of the content you read, because the challenge was to read all five volumes before passing judgement, the same rules you set in your challenge for others. You displayed your prejudice when you stopped reading the moment you read something taught in Catholicism, then passed a negative judgment before completion of the challenge. Are you afraid that if you complete the challenge and read all five volumes that you'll magically become a Catholic??

I think Brakelite has given a cogent reply in the later half of post #240

 

[quietthinker]

And, I responded to it in post #241, to which I got nothing in reply from Brakelite about it.

Perhaps you didn't hear what he stated in the #240 post?

 

[quietthinker]

Or, perhaps you didn't understand what he said and my reply?

hmmm, that's always a possibility although I thought I did understand it having read it several times.
What do you think I missed?

 

[quietthinker]

I can't know until you explain what you read from he and I and how you comprehended it.

Just so we are on the same page, here is the later half of Brakelite's #240 post. The underlined are pertinent sections. I think they are self explanatory.

'I was pondering taking up your challenge, and thinking, I'm a gold miner, not a silver miner, but the Lord said in my spirit, go to the link and see what you will find. So I did. I read the introduction, and the next 3 paragraphs. That was enough. God doesn't need to make me unwell these days I hear Him when He speaks, and in those first few paragraphs I found all i need to come back here and state, unequivocally, this woman is not receiving anything from God, but from Satan. Quote...She possessed the greatest purity that a creature of God could have. I grew up Catholic. I understand the "immaculate conception". I know it doesn't apply to Jesus, but to Mary's conception. It stems from the belief that Jesus couldn't inhabit the womb of a common human and live a sinless life, or He would be tainted, so needed a pure mother so as not to inherit the traits of humanity. That my friend is a lie. A deception designed by Satan to take Rnt focus away from Jesus, to Mary, hence her gradual elevation to today where she now presumably holds the lofty position of co-redemptrix and Mediatrix. I don't need to read any further. I reject her as a prophet of God. Visionary maybe, but Satan can give visions. Loyola and classic example. No. No. No. Not going there.

 

[quietthinker]

Again, I addressed those in post #241. No counter-argument from Brakelite.

I get the impression Brakelite is definitive, particularly in the last comment.....'No, no, no not going there'
In your reply, post #241, you are trying to reboot the debate when he has already given a definitive answer.

 

[quietthinker]

Then, he shouldn't have started what he couldn't finish. Would you allow me or anyone else in discussions saying "I'm right and you're wrong because that's from Satan, bye!" without supporting our claim??

What he should have done or shouldn't have done is subjective and unhelpful to any insight.

 

[quietthinker]

Then you shouldn't be on a discussion/debate board if you don't understand what he shouldn't and should've done and why. And, you didn't answer my question.

It's not complicated LM. Not taking no for an answer only complicates unnecessarily. Now, you're an intelligent person, I'm sure you understand this.

 

[Brakelite]

You said, "To all reading this thread, I challenge you to read those 3 books and then return here and explain why Ellen G. White is a false prophet". It's not coercion to complete a challenge one chooses to accept and finish, regardless of what it entails. I challenged you to read all five volumes by Maria Valtorta. You accepted my challenge and you should've finished it, regardless of the content you read, because the challenge was to read all five volumes before passing judgement, the same rules you set in your challenge for others. You displayed your prejudice when you stopped reading the moment you read something taught in Catholicism, then passed a negative judgment before completion of the challenge. Are you afraid that if you complete the challenge and read all five volumes that you'll magically become a Catholic??



You say that what you read conflicts with Scripture because you'd rather believe something else. But, when push comes to shove, you can't actually explain why it does, whether using Scripture or not. You read an excerpt and immediately said that it's from Satan. In response, I took the time to explain why it's not. What did I get in reply about it? Crickets. Nothing. Why? Because what you read is the truth, but it's not what you'd rather believe, so it's just automatically from Satan without any evidence for it.

I think Brakelite has given a cogent reply in the later half of post #240

What he ^^^^said

That my friend is a lie. A deception designed by Satan to take Rnt focus away from Jesus, to Mary, hence her gradual elevation to today where she now presumably holds the lofty position of co-redemptrix and Mediatrix.

Why do I need support to state the obvious?

No. No. No. Not going there.

Yep. Not going deeper into satanic deceit and deception.

but he didn't provide support for that in the same post

 

[quietthinker]

What he ^^^^said

Why do I need support to state the obvious?

Yep. Not going deeper into satanic deceit and deception.

It's easy to get tangled in unproductive debate. I hope to avoid it when I become conscious it's happening.
I am also learning that if folk choose not to hear, I can't make them. Maybe I'm a slow learner?

 

[Brakelite]

It's easy to get tangled in unproductive debate. I hope to avoid it when I become conscious it's happening.
I am also learning that if folk choose not to hear, I can't make them. Maybe I'm a slow learner?

I think if he wants to promote his mystic, start his own thread.
I didn't start this thread to promote Ellen White, but rather to show that what she wrote is a very thoughtful refutation of the presumptuous and uninformed opinions many have of her... and her church.

 

[BarneyFife]

Thank you for the above.

My pleasure. It's not an ordinary article from Mrs. White. It's worth a very thoughtful read, answering some especially profound questions. I actually had to have a few things pointed out to me before I spotted them.

Then I found some books in a second hand shop. The first 3 , big bulky illustrated "Conflict of the Ages" series. Patriarchs and Prophets.
Prophets and Kings.
Desire of Ages.
Scored for about 10$ the lot. They were in great condition, despite being more than 50 years old. (I also found a 120 year old copy of 'Daniel and Revelation', but that's another story).

I had roughly the same experience. I was too poor to even pay attention but I had to have some of those books that were being quoted. I think I paid $2 each for mine in 1990 for the big blue ones with the color illustrations. It's interesting that this is experience is duplicated halfway around the world—really makes you think, doesn't it?

I cannot recommend those books enough. To all reading this thread, I challenge you to read those 3 books and then return here and explain why Ellen G. White is a false prophet and cult leader.

I'll go you one better, perhaps:

Just read little "Thoughts From The Mount Of Blessing" and try to walk away unfazed.

:)