Genesis to Revelation - God's Desire

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David in NJ

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how do you know that Abel was not providing "fat" sheep as a Shepherd, meaning true worshippers for Yah

How would Cain know that when no offering was asked for?
Cain was plowing his own ground, maybe? Whereas Yah wants Shepherds?
Will reply later = i have outdoor chores required of me = Peace
 
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bbyrd009

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Not sure of who you mean by "all" who go to the same place.
ah, i think that is in The Wisdom...Ecclesiastes, to Christians
and i see Jesus' inferring "not all go to the same place," so dont get me wrong, i dunno
my guess is that not all go to the same spiritual place, even if they all go to thew same physical place, as other Scripture seems to support
 
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David in NJ

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ah, i think that is in The Wisdom...Ecclesiastes, to Christians
and i see Jesus' inferring "not all go to the same place," so dont get me wrong, i dunno
my guess is that not all go to the same spiritual place, even if they all go to thew same physical place, as other Scripture seems to support
i'm watching the Bruins Hockey game
thank you for being patient as i do not want to rush the reply - thanks
 
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St. SteVen

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Stick with as you said: "I know, I know...Blood".

Observation #1 = When Scripture speaks without words it will use people to demonstrate what is said where words are missing.
Do you have another example that is more obvious? Thanks.
Case in Point from Observation #1 = How did Able know that God required blood sacrifice as worship unto the LORD?
That seems like an assumption. There were different offerings given, and for different purposes. As I understand it.
There were grain offerings in the OT. Were they unacceptable?
Not sure everyone even had livestock. Animals were for sale at the Temple for those who had the need.
But that may have had more to do with the long journey to get there.
Case in Point (2) from Observation #1 = How did Cain also know this but refused and on what basis did Cain refuse.....???
Built on assumption number one above. Not clear from the text, unless I am missing something.
I think Cain could have offered first fruits, and the best picks. Instead of just "some".

This is a good discussion. Hope I don't sound combative. Not my intention, bro. Good topic. Thanks.
 
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David in NJ

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Do you have another example that is more obvious? Thanks.

That seems like an assumption. There were different offerings given, and for different purposes. As I understand it.
There were grain offerings in the OT. Were they unacceptable?
Not sure everyone even had livestock. Animals were for sale at the Temple for those who had the need.
But that may have had more to do with the long journey to get there.

Built on assumption number one above. Not clear from the text, unless I am missing something.
I think Cain could have offered first fruits, and the best picks. Instead of just "some".

This is a good discussion. Hope I don't sound combative. Not my intention, bro. Good topic. Thanks.
You said: "That seems like an assumption. There were different offerings given, and for different purposes. As I understand it.
There were grain offerings in the OT. Were they unacceptable?
Not sure everyone even had livestock. Animals were for sale at the Temple for those who had the need.
But that may have had more to do with the long journey to get there."
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The questions that were posed to you (and everyone) in Post #27 only pertain to Cain and Abel.

Cain and Abel are the immediate children of Adam and Eve.

This was hundreds(thousands) of years before Moses and the Law, when the Outline of multiple type Offerings were first instructed.

There is no instruction given by the LORD for grain offerings before Moses and the Law.
 
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St. SteVen

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The questions that were posed to you (and everyone) in Post #27 only pertain to Cain and Abel.
If that is that case, then you can't make a far-reaching application, correct?
That is not my understanding of the "blood for sin" claim.
(which I believe does not apply here - to Cain and Able)
Cain and Abel are the immediate children of Adam and Eve.

This was hundreds(thousands) of years before Moses and the Law, when the Outline of multiple type Offerings were first instructed.
What "law" did Cain violate when he murdered his brother? "Where there is no law..." (Romans 5:13-14) "Nevertheless..."
There is no instruction given by the LORD for grain offerings before Moses and the Law.
True, as I understand it.
However, the flood of Noah's day was well before the law was given. What was the problem?
The whole earth was destroyed with flood. Why?
 

David in NJ

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If that is that case, then you can't make a far-reaching application, correct?
That is not my understanding of the "blood for sin" claim.
(which I believe does not apply here - to Cain and Able)

What "law" did Cain violate when he murdered his brother? "Where there is no law..." (Romans 5:13-14) "Nevertheless..."

True, as I understand it.
However, the flood of Noah's day was well before the law was given. What was the problem?
The whole earth was destroyed with flood. Why?
If that is that case, then you can't make a far-reaching application, correct?

CORRECT = We cannot reach beyond what is detailed for us to see in Scripture = especially in a vacuum of Genesis chapters 3-4.

We must understand that Genesis chapter 3 BEGINS the very FIRST interaction between God and man = Adam & Eve = ch2

The very next chapter, chapter 3, brings to the Readers our FIRST introduction to the Speaking Standing Serpent and SIN.

Included in Chapter 3 is the non-verbal Instruction of God for blood sacrifice = HE clothed their nakedness with skins of an animal.

This is God's Foundation of Truth that the entire Scripture will build upon all the way to Revelation.

This leads us to Cain and Abel.

FURTHERMORE = we must pay EXTRA Special Attention to this account for it is confirmed that Abel is the very FIRST Prophet of God.

"Therefore the wisdom of God also said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and persecute,’
that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation,
from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished between the altar and the temple."
 
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David in NJ

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how do you know that Abel was not providing "fat" sheep as a Shepherd, meaning true worshippers for Yah

How would Cain know that when no offering was asked for?
Cain was plowing his own ground, maybe? Whereas Yah wants Shepherds?
OK, i'm back - Bruins lost due to negligence fed by pride.........hopefully they learn and make corrections = like us who by Grace, Believe.

PART 1 of my reply only dealing with Abel and his offering.

We cannot reach beyond what is detailed for us to see in Scripture = especially in a vacuum of Genesis chapters 3-4.

We must understand that Genesis chapter 3 BEGINS the very FIRST interaction between God and man = Adam & Eve = ch2

The very next chapter, chapter 3, brings to the Readers our FIRST introduction to the Speaking Standing Serpent and SIN.

Included in Chapter 3 is the non-verbal Instruction of God for blood sacrifice = HE clothed their nakedness with skins of an animal.

This is God's Foundation of Truth that the entire Scripture will build upon all the way to Revelation.

This leads us to Cain and Abel.

FURTHERMORE = we must pay EXTRA Special Attention to this account for it is confirmed that Abel is the very FIRST Prophet of God.

"Therefore the wisdom of God also said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and persecute,’
that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation,
from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished between the altar and the temple."
 

David in NJ

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how do you know that Abel was not providing "fat" sheep as a Shepherd, meaning true worshippers for Yah

How would Cain know that when no offering was asked for?
Cain was plowing his own ground, maybe? Whereas Yah wants Shepherds?
You asked: "How would Cain know that when no offering was asked for?"
"Cain was plowing his own ground, maybe? Whereas Yah wants Shepherds?"

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

PART 2 - Cain

We know that Elohim(Word) instructed Adam & Eve in the Garden after their embrace of SIN which resulted in separation from Elohim.

And the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; so they sewed together fig leaves and made coverings for themselves.

Then God gives ALL THREE the VERDICT of Death/Sorrow - Serpent 1st, then Eve 2nd, then Adam 3rd

Then God's Grace covers the nakedness of Adam & Eve
And the LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and He clothed them = FIRST Blood sacrifice!

Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, while Cain was a tiller of the soil. So in the course of time, Cain brought some of the fruit of the soil as an offering to the LORD, while Abel brought the best portions of the firstborn of his flock.

And the LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering, but He had no regard for Cain and his offering. So Cain became very angry, and his countenance fell.

“Why are you angry,” said the LORD to Cain, “and why has your countenance fallen?
If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?

But if you refuse to do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires you, but you must master it.”

God clearly instructed Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel = ALL were accepted by God irregardless of Farm & Field Occupations.

Cain knew what was required of him from God = now it was a matter of Cain deciding within his heart = YES or NO

Cain chose NO/SIN and murdered his Brother Abel.
 

St. SteVen

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Included in Chapter 3 is the non-verbal Instruction of God for blood sacrifice = HE clothed their nakedness with skins of an animal.

This is God's Foundation of Truth that the entire Scripture will build upon all the way to Revelation.
Good post, thanks.
I wanted to comment on this, if I may.

Non-verbal instruction is a curious concept. Thanks.
What is the foundational instruction here that is built upon "all the way to Revelation"?
Blood sacrifice?
 

St. SteVen

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You asked: "How would Cain know that when no offering was asked for?"
"Cain was plowing his own ground, maybe? Whereas Yah wants Shepherds?"
Oh my. That seems like a stretch. (no disrespect intended) But...
God wants shepherds, not farmers? (workers of the soil.

Where will get our bread? (and everything else)

The point is, this doesn't hold up. NOW what do you think it means?
 

David in NJ

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Good post, thanks.
I wanted to comment on this, if I may.

Non-verbal instruction is a curious concept. Thanks.
What is the foundational instruction here that is built upon "all the way to Revelation"?
Blood sacrifice?
Just some of the many things that i love about Scripture are:
a.) Truth you can trust your life with
b.) Written for Children to understand
c.) TEACHER says = Open Book Exam = No one who loves the Teacher fails = and when we sin = HE Covers for us with a PASS

Non verbal meaning the Truth is written thru Expression of the Story with details given that will later be Verified.

There was no death upon anyone or any animal when Adam & Eve were first created and walking with God in the Garden.

God clothed Adam & Eve with animal skins = Where did they come from? the animals HE created that were in their midst.

EUREKA Moment Here = Genesis 2:18-20
And the Lord God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.” Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them.

And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name.
So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him.

Thus we SEE God created Adam with Great Intelligence and prophetic utterance.
 
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St. SteVen

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St. SteVen said:

Good post, thanks.
... Non-verbal instruction is a curious concept. Thanks.
What is the foundational instruction here that is built upon "all the way to Revelation"?
Blood sacrifice?
Non verbal meaning the Truth is written thru Expression of the Story with details given that will later be Verified.

There was no death upon anyone or any animal when Adam & Eve were first created and walking with God in the Garden.

God clothed Adam & Eve with animal skins = Where did they come from? the animals HE created that were in their midst.
I wasn't asking about defining non-verbal; I was asking about non-verbal instruction.
Is this a nonverbal command that someone was responsible to?

Question: What if the command to not eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was Non-verbal?
Would Adam & Eve have been responsible?
 

David in NJ

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St. SteVen said:

Good post, thanks.
... Non-verbal instruction is a curious concept. Thanks.
What is the foundational instruction here that is built upon "all the way to Revelation"?
Blood sacrifice?

I wasn't asking about defining non-verbal; I was asking about non-verbal instruction.
Is this a nonverbal command that someone was responsible to?

Question: What if the command to not eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was Non-verbal?
Would Adam & Eve have been responsible?
Non verbal instruction given to Adam & Eve thru actual presentation/application = Watch ME do this for your nakedness......

i do not see 'what if's' as applicable since that would be, as you say: "far-reaching" and has lead to many a false doctrine based on supposition from our very limited knowledge base.

Keep in mind that the Damage was Done with No-Turning Back.......ONLY a going Forward by God's instructions which are His Grace.
 

St. SteVen

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Non verbal instruction given to Adam & Eve thru actual presentation/application = Watch ME do this for your nakedness......
My nakedness?
Do you disagree that Adam and Eve were naked and unashamed?
That there was shame in nakedness BEFORE the Fall? (respectfully disagree)
i do not see 'what if's' as applicable since that would be, as you say: "far-reaching" and has lead to many a false doctrine based on supposition from our very limited knowledge base.
"What if's", like "blood required for sin"? (based on animal skins)
 

David in NJ

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My nakedness?
Do you disagree that Adam and Eve were naked and unashamed?
That there was shame in nakedness BEFORE the Fall? (respectfully disagree)

"What if's", like "blood required for sin"?
'your' is Adam & Eve and ME is God in my last post.

NO/ZERO/NADA/ZIP/NONE Shame in their nakedness before their Fall/Sin.

Blood required for sin is not a 'What if" = It was a direct showing/demonstration from God to Adam & Eve and later Verified by the LORD.
 
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St. SteVen

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NO/ZERO/NADA/ZIP/NONE Shame in their nakedness before their Fall/Sin.
Good, thanks.
Blood required for sin is not a 'What if" = It was a direct showing/demonstration from God to Adam & Eve and later Verified by the LORD.
Which you described as a non-verbal command? (correct me if I'm wrong, thanks)
Please substantiate, thanks.
 

David in NJ

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Good, thanks.

Which you described as a non-verbal command? (correct me if I'm wrong, thanks)
Please substantiate, thanks.
First it was the animal skins = and remember that Adam knew each animal for he named them all.

There is no doubt that God used a lamb to slay for their covering.

How do we assume/know this??? = Cain and Able
 
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St. SteVen

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David in NJ

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That's interesting.
What bearing does that have? (what's the point?)

No doubt? Well... ???

Assume/know? Wait, those are antithetical.
"Assume/know? Wait, those are antithetical." - lol

Genesis is a 'vacuum' of Truth - Genesis means "Beginning(s)/Origin(s) = Specific from God for us to 'know', have 'knowing' and 'known'.

Genesis is God's Foundation = "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world".

First Adam & Eve with skins for sin
Second Cain & Abel where, again, skin/sheep for an acceptable offering unto God = Key words: acceptable offering

Third = Noah and the Flood


A.) Then the Lord said to Noah, “Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation. You shall take with you seven each of every clean animal, a male and his female;
two each of animals that are unclean, a male and his female; also seven each of birds of the air, male and female, to keep the species alive on the face of all the earth.

B.) Then God spoke to Noah, saying, “Go out of the ark, you and your wife, and your sons and your sons’ wives with you.

C.) Then Noah built an altar to the Lord, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma.

Here we SEE again what God instructed Adam & Eve, then Cain and Able, HE again instructs to Noah.


Notice there is no direct statement (recorded) from God to sacrifice these clean animals = same as with Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel.

AGAIN = non-verbal demonstration accompanied by Truth being passed on FORWARD
 
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