I think you are reading into it what is not there. Disciples are people committed to the cause; the teaching; the experience. If you don't have that you are not a disciple.
GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT
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I think you are reading into it what is not there. Disciples are people committed to the cause; the teaching; the experience. If you don't have that you are not a disciple.
Me too....in 2 different churches 140 miles from home and 2 different prophets. Never heard or seen a prophet before....except neither prophesied about my calling or ministry....both spoke of the trials and tribulations I would suffer for the next SEVERAL years....(several to me is like 4 or 5 apparently several to God is 25.)...but if I remained faithful to the end I would receive my harvest....Still holding on to that harvest part of it.
The reality you make what you are is not reading anything into making disciples. It is what happens.
Having a pure heart, living in holiness is the cornerstone of our faith. We are temples of the Holy Spirit or we are nothing. These are not options. Knowing right from wrong is meat of the gospel, walking in God's will. Amen
Romans 3:9 What then? Do we excel? Not at all! For we have charged both Jews and Greeks before, all with being under sin;
Romans 5:12 Because of this, even as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death passed to all men, inasmuch as all sinned.
2Thess 2:3 Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, because that Day will not come unless first comes the falling away, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
Disciples of Christ are those who are obedient to go to all the world making disciples of men, baptizing in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and teaching them to observe all that He has commanded. Jesus said GO....
Those are the disciples of Christ....
Disciples of men...they are students who disciplines himself in the teachings and practices of another. So basically whose teaching you adhere to you are a disciple of that teacher and teaching.
I have always found it interesting how churches claim to follow Jesus but often have followers who are all very similar.
If one does not see this reality, it is probably because their way is the way, lol
Ther final gift of the Spirit I am going to deal with is the interpretation of tongues, or as the literal translation of scripture says languages.
1Corinthians 12:10 and to another, workings of powers, and to another, prophecy, and to another, discerning of spirits, and to another, kinds of languages, and to another, interpretation of languages. (I am using a literal translation).
The tongues/languages and their interpretation seems to be the most problematic for a lot of people. Are we talking about unknown tongues or languages that are known but need to be interpreted? In fact, the word "unknown" is not in the original Greek, so we speak in tongues or languages.
One important thing about tongues/languages is that you do not have to be proficient in a given tongue/ language to be able to speak it or interpret it.
The word "interpretation" in the original Greek is just that, To translate a language into another one as in a person in a meeting speaks in Mandarin, a person can translate that into English without knowing the English language they are using for the simple reason that the tongue they are using in the Greek means a language they have not naturally acquired.
So, in a meeting, a person can speak in Mandarin and a person from Portugal can interpret the message without knowing the English language. I have read of cases where a person has given a message in the English language and another person who was English had given a word-perfect interpretation in Mandarin to what was said in English as the recipient of the interpretation who was Chinese attested to.
These sorts of explanations and experiences make it very clear that we are talking about a known language here, not a personal prayer language that does not necessarily need any interpretation and it is a vehicle that the Holy Spirit uses to manifest his power. It is not given to enable us to say "look at me."
So where does a personal prayer language fit it here? There are some who would have us believe that it is a sign that we are born again. I would prefer to consider it as a sign that we are filled with the Holy Spirit, being an overflow of the power of the Spirit in prayer. I know that on the day that it happened to me, I was in our young people's prayer meeting and quite involuntary I started speaking in tongues. Up to that time, it was a case I had not even heard of the Holy Spirit (familiar?). Once I did, it was history one might say.
A man who integral to the charismatic renewal in the 60s in the UK, Arthur Wallis, was a Brethren Elder. He was praying one day and he broke out in tongues. He had no idea what it was all about and it wasn't until two weeks later that he told someone and that person explained what had happened to him.
As to when and how much to speak in tongues. In 1Corinthians 14:5 Paul says "And I wish all of you to speak in languages, but rather that you may prophesy. For the one, prophesying is greater than the one speaking in tongues, unless he interprets, that the assembly may receive building up."
First, Paul wanted EVERYONE to speak in languages and second, the one who prophesies IS NOT greater than the one who speaks in languages unless there is no interpretation.
In 1Corinthians 14:18 Paul says I thank my God that I speak more languages than all of you. Not tongues, but languages.
It is very clear that Paul at no time cast aspersions to speaking in tongues/languages. In the right context and with interpretation, they were as valid as any other gift of the Holy Spirit.
In 1Corinthians 14:13 it says "So then, the one speaking in a language, let him pray that he may interpret.
In 1Corinthians 14:14 he says "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful."
Interpretation. If you pray in tongues you do not need to understand with your mind. If you speak in a language, you need to have an interpretation to make it valid and useful.
Here both words, language and tongues is used and they both have the same original Greek word which is glossa from which we get the word glossolalia.
In 1Cornthians 14:14 it says "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful." This implies that you can pray in a tongue and in a language meaning that they are different. The mind comprehends one but not the other.
To sum up. Speaking/praying in tongues/a language are both valid. One needs no interpretation but the other does to make it valid. One is mainly for your own benefit and the other is for the benefit of everyone present.
1Corinthians 12:10 and to another, workings of powers, and to another, prophecy, and to another, discerning of spirits, and to another, kinds of languages, and to another, interpretation of languages. (I am using a literal translation).
The tongues/languages and their interpretation seems to be the most problematic for a lot of people. Are we talking about unknown tongues or languages that are known but need to be interpreted? In fact, the word "unknown" is not in the original Greek, so we speak in tongues or languages.
One important thing about tongues/languages is that you do not have to be proficient in a given tongue/ language to be able to speak it or interpret it.
The word "interpretation" in the original Greek is just that, To translate a language into another one as in a person in a meeting speaks in Mandarin, a person can translate that into English without knowing the English language they are using for the simple reason that the tongue they are using in the Greek means a language they have not naturally acquired.
So, in a meeting, a person can speak in Mandarin and a person from Portugal can interpret the message without knowing the English language. I have read of cases where a person has given a message in the English language and another person who was English had given a word-perfect interpretation in Mandarin to what was said in English as the recipient of the interpretation who was Chinese attested to.
These sorts of explanations and experiences make it very clear that we are talking about a known language here, not a personal prayer language that does not necessarily need any interpretation and it is a vehicle that the Holy Spirit uses to manifest his power. It is not given to enable us to say "look at me."
So where does a personal prayer language fit it here? There are some who would have us believe that it is a sign that we are born again. I would prefer to consider it as a sign that we are filled with the Holy Spirit, being an overflow of the power of the Spirit in prayer. I know that on the day that it happened to me, I was in our young people's prayer meeting and quite involuntary I started speaking in tongues. Up to that time, it was a case I had not even heard of the Holy Spirit (familiar?). Once I did, it was history one might say.
A man who integral to the charismatic renewal in the 60s in the UK, Arthur Wallis, was a Brethren Elder. He was praying one day and he broke out in tongues. He had no idea what it was all about and it wasn't until two weeks later that he told someone and that person explained what had happened to him.
As to when and how much to speak in tongues. In 1Corinthians 14:5 Paul says "And I wish all of you to speak in languages, but rather that you may prophesy. For the one, prophesying is greater than the one speaking in tongues, unless he interprets, that the assembly may receive building up."
First, Paul wanted EVERYONE to speak in languages and second, the one who prophesies IS NOT greater than the one who speaks in languages unless there is no interpretation.
In 1Corinthians 14:18 Paul says I thank my God that I speak more languages than all of you. Not tongues, but languages.
It is very clear that Paul at no time cast aspersions to speaking in tongues/languages. In the right context and with interpretation, they were as valid as any other gift of the Holy Spirit.
In 1Corinthians 14:13 it says "So then, the one speaking in a language, let him pray that he may interpret.
In 1Corinthians 14:14 he says "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful."
Interpretation. If you pray in tongues you do not need to understand with your mind. If you speak in a language, you need to have an interpretation to make it valid and useful.
Here both words, language and tongues is used and they both have the same original Greek word which is glossa from which we get the word glossolalia.
In 1Cornthians 14:14 it says "For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful." This implies that you can pray in a tongue and in a language meaning that they are different. The mind comprehends one but not the other.
To sum up. Speaking/praying in tongues/a language are both valid. One needs no interpretation but the other does to make it valid. One is mainly for your own benefit and the other is for the benefit of everyone present.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
It is important to also reiterate that the person given the gift of interpretation of tongues doesn't know himself all the languages he is given to interpret. If his natural language is English, then he "hears" the tongue in his mind in English to know the message.
I knew of an interpretation here in Tennesse where there was a tongue given to the church, and a woman who could speak two languages (English and Zulu), swore the tongues spoken was Zulu. No, that is what she "heard." The pastor who gave the interpretation "heard" English, and gave the interpretation, and she confirmed it, but was mistaken and preprogramed to believe the tongue itself was Zulu. It is so clear to the person given the gift of Interpretation of Tongues, that they sometimes believe the language of the tongue was theirs. At my church in Arizona this happened. A seeking teenager was being prayed over and one prayed in tongues. Everyone heard the tongues, but her. She "heard" only English. She didn't hear anyone speaking in tongues at all. What she interpreted (heard) changed her life and she became a Christian. It was a message from God for only her ears.
This is what set off the bewilderment of the devout Jews on the Day of Pentecost. Most people reading the account believe what they've been taught, that it was the different disciples who were speaking their languages. But that is not what it said. Each devout Jew heard their own language, like listening to a choir, not the cacophony of 120 speaking 120 different languages.
6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. 7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?
It is also important to realize that the person with the gift of interpretation has like an office in that church. They give most of the interpretations and are known to the members. That is why if that person is absent, then the person with a message in tongues should not stand and give the tongue, but keep it to themselves and God.
One thing I don't agree with is your belief that the interpretation is a literal word-for-word translation. No it is an interpretation of what is being said. The sentence structure of some languages is not as clear with a word-for-word translation as it is in a rearranged interpretation. Also what God tells the interpreter can even be longer that the length of the tongue. That is totally up to God.
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DoveSpirit05
Active Member
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry, but that is what I thought you meant by word-perfect here when I said word-for-word. What else could you have meant?
Can you rephrase it so I know what you did mean?
Did you agree with the rest, or was there anything else you would like to discuss?
Although this is not directly linked to the nine gifts as set out in 1 Corinthians 12, I thought I will comment on it as it intrigues me.
In Acts 2:4 it says "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak in other languages, as the Spirit gave the ability to them to speak. (Please note this is languages not tongues as the following verses make clear.)
Act 2:5 And Jews were living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation of those under heaven.
Act 2:6 But this sound occurring, the multitude came together and were confounded, because they each heard them speaking in his own dialect.
Act 2:7 And all were amazed and marveled, saying to one another, Behold, are not all these, those speaking, Galileans?
Act 2:8 And how do we hear each in our own dialect in which we were born,
Act 2:9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and those living in Mesopotamia, both Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
Act 2:10 both Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt, and the regions of Libya over against Cyrene, and the temporarily residing Romans, both Jews and proselytes,
Act 2:11 Cretans and Arabians; in our own languages we hear them speaking the great deeds of God?
Note the comment "And all were amazed and marveled, saying to one another, Behold, are not all these, those speaking, Galileans?"
Why were they amazed they were Galileans? Galilee as a province was not noted for being a seat of learning. Most living there would be employed in manual labor i.e. fishing, tent-making, so their opportunity to learning languages would have been minimal, hence the surprise. How would they have known they were Galileans? Dialect or accent would have given them away, like the Liverpudlian accent in the UK. If you don't know where that is, think of the Fab Four, the Beatles who came from Liverpool in the North West of England.
The question is how did the Jews visiting Jerusalem hear their own particular language? There was a hell of a lot of them because they were from every nation under the sun. If the disciples all spoke in the language they had been given at the same time, no one would hear what was being said. How many did that involve? Whatever the number something supernatural was happening.
When it came to addressing the crowd, only 12 speakers were involved, or was it only Peter. Even though he stood up with the eleven does not mean 12 spoke.
Act 2:14 But standing up with the Eleven, Peter lifted up his voice and spoke out to them, Men, Jews, and all those living in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and listen to my words: Note it says that Peter lifted up his voice, not 12.
So thousands heard what was being said in their own languages. How did this happen? There is only one explanation I can come up with and it is this. Peter spoke to the crowd in his own language and the Holy Spirit translated his words to the crowd in their own language so that everyone heard what was said in their own language.
And I believe that this happened to enable the Holy Spirit to display his supernatural power. I have said many times that the New Testament church was birthed with power and prayer. The two things that are absent today in most churches. Nuf zed.
In Acts 2:4 it says "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak in other languages, as the Spirit gave the ability to them to speak. (Please note this is languages not tongues as the following verses make clear.)
Act 2:5 And Jews were living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation of those under heaven.
Act 2:6 But this sound occurring, the multitude came together and were confounded, because they each heard them speaking in his own dialect.
Act 2:7 And all were amazed and marveled, saying to one another, Behold, are not all these, those speaking, Galileans?
Act 2:8 And how do we hear each in our own dialect in which we were born,
Act 2:9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and those living in Mesopotamia, both Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
Act 2:10 both Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt, and the regions of Libya over against Cyrene, and the temporarily residing Romans, both Jews and proselytes,
Act 2:11 Cretans and Arabians; in our own languages we hear them speaking the great deeds of God?
Note the comment "And all were amazed and marveled, saying to one another, Behold, are not all these, those speaking, Galileans?"
Why were they amazed they were Galileans? Galilee as a province was not noted for being a seat of learning. Most living there would be employed in manual labor i.e. fishing, tent-making, so their opportunity to learning languages would have been minimal, hence the surprise. How would they have known they were Galileans? Dialect or accent would have given them away, like the Liverpudlian accent in the UK. If you don't know where that is, think of the Fab Four, the Beatles who came from Liverpool in the North West of England.
The question is how did the Jews visiting Jerusalem hear their own particular language? There was a hell of a lot of them because they were from every nation under the sun. If the disciples all spoke in the language they had been given at the same time, no one would hear what was being said. How many did that involve? Whatever the number something supernatural was happening.
When it came to addressing the crowd, only 12 speakers were involved, or was it only Peter. Even though he stood up with the eleven does not mean 12 spoke.
Act 2:14 But standing up with the Eleven, Peter lifted up his voice and spoke out to them, Men, Jews, and all those living in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and listen to my words: Note it says that Peter lifted up his voice, not 12.
So thousands heard what was being said in their own languages. How did this happen? There is only one explanation I can come up with and it is this. Peter spoke to the crowd in his own language and the Holy Spirit translated his words to the crowd in their own language so that everyone heard what was said in their own language.
And I believe that this happened to enable the Holy Spirit to display his supernatural power. I have said many times that the New Testament church was birthed with power and prayer. The two things that are absent today in most churches. Nuf zed.
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As one who has taught English to students, I am well versed in the correct way to use vocabulary. When you are speaking a language that is not your normal language, it is easy to misinterpret words, especially when one word can mean different things depending on the inflection you put on it. In every language, there is a perfect way to speak or write it. The interpretation given by the person who had not learned the Mandarin language spoke it perfectly meaning word for word as it was meant to be spoken.
And no I didn't agree with all of it but I do not respond every time that happens, depending on whether it is beneficial to do so.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
Fetus is Latin for baby and if they watched that and said it was not a baby they have got rocks in their head.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
At the beginning of the video it looked like the baby was looking straight at the camera and saying "Daddy"
Plus it was a beautiful looking baby, one who you would be proud to be the parent of.
You will find in the Jewish system of learning, it was the norm to be taught by a Rabbi to learn all things Jewish. Paul went down that path and was seen as a teacher of repute because he learned well and taught well.
Jesus spent three years with his 12 disciples and he told them to go and teach everything that he had taught them.
Both Paul and the 12 spent time learning the teaching of another. Paul was a disciple of his mentor and the 12 were disciples of Jesus and what he taught.
When they were released on the day of Pentecost, they did not teach their own ideas. They taught what Jesus told them to teach.
My teaching is based on the teaching of several notable teachers in the body of Christ and that is why I know so much. I am an avid listener and reader and seek knowledge from others who can improve on my knowledge and wisdom. Apart from the fact, I have two years of intense study at Bible College.
Every day I go into all the world on the internet, passing on the teaching of Jesus. I can see why this is so important because over the years I have found an incredibly ignorance of the truth that is in the Word of God and how many come up with an idea or an opinion and claim it to be the truth. The fact that it contravenes what the Word teaches does not enter their heads.
A classic example used by women to claim the bible teaches women can have authority and leadership in the church because of Deborah in the Old Testament and because Junias/Junia is a female apostle.
When I ask what about where Paul wrote to Timothy telling him that an Elder must govern HIS household well, all sorts of excuses are given to cancel out what Paul said to Timothy. I have studied Jewish custom and their way of life and unless the woman is a widow, no woman is head of the house. It is always a man and he governs the household.
When families gather for the annual Passover meal, the oldest male presided over it. never a woman.
So when the scripture says an Elder must govern his household well, that is what it means, which means an Elder is a man and in the New Testament Church, the government of it was by Elders with the help of the Apostles and prophets. never one with a Pastoral ministry.
There are 23 verses in the New Testament that speaks of church leadership and everyone talks about Apostles, Prophets, and Elders. never pastors. I found this out when I studied the New Testament church for Ph.D.
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Nancy
Well-Known Member
Awwwwwwwwww! And, yes it DOES look like the baby is saying I love you daddy! The moment of conception = life to me. ❤
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