God Commands Righteous Violence

[Wrangler]

You @Matthias appear to be opposed to these righteous actions which the bible teaches.
There is a time to be peaceful and a time to defend against evil and wickedness

Well said.

Because we recognize there is a time not to be peaceful, the overly-spiritualized falsely call us war mongers. I don't seek to end the peace but will not shy away from restoring peace and justice when evil reveals itself. The enemy is within the church. You better believe it. Teaching an overly-spiritualized, emasculating message, confusing goodness and righteousness with "nice.'

Jesus wasn't nice. Jesus was good and righteous. He flips over tables, whips as people, calls people out to their face and will kill more people than anyone in history in the Lake of Fire. This violent killing is God's ultimate solution to evil - not to let it reign forever in the name of piety. The text of Scripture is obvious. We, likewise, are to do justice.

 

[Matthias]

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People are missing the point of the video.
The point is to not allow wickedness and evil manifest itself.
The point is to fight for your household and family.
To defend the weak and vulnerable.
To protect women and children.
All things that the bible commands us to do

You @Matthias appear to be opposed to these righteous actions which the bible teaches.
There is a time to be peaceful and a time to defend against evil and wickedness

View attachment 87147

I’m not ever opposed to righteous actions. What I am opposed to are teachings and actions which are touted as righteous but conflict with the teaching and practice of Jesus and the apostles.

***

“Jesus lied.”

That’s not righteous; that’s evil. It’s manifested on this forum. Do you recognize and acknowledge that it is evil?

It’s a teaching, an action, of your “buddy” @Wrangler. I’m fighting him. Are you?

 

[Matthias]

Jesus wasn't nice. Jesus was good and righteous.

You believe and teach “Jesus lied”. That’s neither good nor righteous.

He flips over tables, whips as people, calls people out to their face

I’ve done the same to you on this forum (and on others).

… and will kill more people than anyone in history in the Lake of Fire.

Yes. You’re in danger of being one of those persons. I continue to plead with you to repent.

This violent killing is God's ultimate solution to evil - not to let it reign forever in the name of piety. The text of Scripture is obvious.

That’s right.

We, likewise, are to do justice.

See the teaching and example set by Jesus and the apostles. They didn’t kill their enemies - people who were evil - and they teach the followers of Jesus, down through the centuries to our day, not to kill ours.

 

[Lambano]

Restorative justice is a legal and social approach that emphasizes repairing harm, restoring relationships, and involving all affected parties rather than focusing solely on punishment.​

17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (2 Corinthians 5:17-21.)

Do you understand what God's justice is in, light of Christ's mission? And as Christians, followers of Christ, what our mission is?

Or is that too "overly spiritual"?

 

[Lambano]

...and will kill more people than anyone in history in the Lake of Fire.

Funny you should mention that. The first time I ran into your hero Vlad the Impaler, it was in Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle's book Inferno. The story is about a science fiction writer (like Niven and Pournelle) who dies and goes to Hell. Hell in this book is based on Dante's Divine Comedy. The writer comes across Vlad Tepes in the bolgia of the malebolge, the sowers of scandal and discord. Vlad's punishment for bringing violent and disgraceful scandal on the name of Christ is to eternally wander the bolgia impaled on a stake through his rectum, and when he heals, a demon shoves the stake in further and repeats the agony all over again in an endless cycle. I read that book 40 years ago, but I didn't understand the appropriateness of the punishment until researching Vlad the Impaler for this forum.

Do you agree with Niven and Pournelle's assessment that God will judge Vlad the Impaler harshly for his works?

Yes. You’re in danger of being one of those persons. I continue to plead with you to repent.

 

[Matthias]

“He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.”

I’ve quoted a Catholic translation (NABRE) of 1 Peter 2:22 especially with you in mind @Armour of God.

Now a Protestant translation (KJV)

”Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth;”

And finally one more Protestant translation (ISV)

”He never sinned, and he never told a lie.”

Please explain to me, if you will, how these translations either support or fail to support the teaching of @Wrangler -> “Jesus lied”.

Maybe he’ll listen to you.

 

[Armour of God]

I’m not ever opposed to righteous actions. What I am opposed to are teachings and actions which are touted as righteous but conflict with the teaching and practice of Jesus and the apostles

So you actually agree with me on this issue as well. Then why are you constantly trying to argue with me for?

“Jesus lied.”

That’s not righteous; that’s evil. It’s manifested on this forum. Do you recognize and acknowledge that it is evil?

It’s a teaching, an action, of your “buddy” @Wrangler. I’m fighting him. Are you?

I never said Jesus lied.
If your arguing against two different people then please make sure you keep the context with that person.

With me you've agreed that we should protect our families, the weak, elderly, the vulnerable, women and children.
And on the other thread you've agreed that the reconquista was justified.

Then why exactly are you opposing me?
Your just being antagonistic now arguing about nothing that I've said or believe

 

[Matthias]

I know that many didn’t (and won’t) watch the video posted in the OP. If you didn’t, but you read what the author of the OP wrote in post #1, you might have come away thinking that the speaker in the video is extolling Vlad. He isn’t. He doesn’t even so much as mention Vlad’s name.

Did @Wrangler intentionally mislead his readers? I don’t know. What I do know is that he should make certain that his readers understand that what he wrote is his own observation, not an observation made by the speaker in the video. Will he? We’ll see.

Vlad was an extraordinarily evil ruler. That appeals to Wrangler. Does it appeal to the speaker? I might be wrong but I don’t think that it does. If someone knows for certain that it does, please let me know.

@Wrangler has chosen not to make it clear to his readers.

 

[Matthias]

So you actually agree with me on this issue as well.

I told you that at the very beginning of our conversation.

Then why are you constantly trying to argue with me for?

You have characterized this as a debate. It isn’t.

I never said Jesus lied.

I’m confident that’s true. You haven’t said it; @Wrangler has. Don’t take my word for it. Search and see for yourself.

If your arguing against two different people then please make sure you keep the context with that person.

I’m sorry it wasn’t clear to you. I’m trying to enlist your support to persuade him that Jesus did not lie. A few others have tried and failed. He might listen to you. If he does you will have done him a good service.

With me you've agreed that we should protect our families, the weak, elderly, the vulnerable, women and children.
And on the other thread you've agreed that the reconquista was justified.

Yes.

Then why exactly are you opposing me?

I’ve already told you why. It’s the method of doing those things that we don’t agree on.

Your just being antagonistic now …

I’ve been antagonistic to your method from the beginning.

… arguing about nothing that I've said or believe

You still haven't understood what I’m saying.

View attachment 87150

I have learned how. Now help Wrangler, if you can, to see that his teaching is false.

 

[Armour of God]

 

[Matthias]

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Paul isn’t contradicting the psalmist, and he‘s fighting, as I am and you aren’t, the false teaching of @Wrangler.

 

[Wrangler]

Do you agree with Niven and Pournelle's assessment that God will judge Vlad the Impaler harshly for his works?

I don't know. God didn't let Moses go to the promised land but don't think he's suffering eternally for his wrongs.

 

[Wrangler]

Restorative justice is a legal and social approach that emphasizes repairing harm, restoring relationships, and involving all affected parties rather than focusing solely on punishment.

Or is that too "overly spiritual"?

As long as you don't gloss over just punishment via not 'being sole focus.' Sounds like you are tacitly recognizing righteous violence commanded by God as detailed in the OP. Progress.

The process flow is submission first to making things right, justice being done. Then all that repairing and restoring stuff second.

 

[Matthias]

I don't know.

You hold up Vlad as a hero, someone whom Christians should imitate, and you don’t know? Don’t you think you should find out before you recommend that followers of Jesus become Vlads? Paul instructs us to search the scriptures. Right?

 

[Matthias]

“… Christians of the early centuries were motivated [not to serve in the military] by another consideration [besides idolatry] which was at least as important to them as was their rejection of idolatry - their respect for life.”

(Jean-Michel Hornus, It Is Not Lawful For Me To Fight, p. 16)

That issue - respect for life - wasn’t important at all for sadistic Vlad.

Dr. Hornus comments in a footnote at this point in his work -

“Without realizing that he was thereby destroying the rest of his argument, Vanderpol wrote (Doctrine scholastique, 180), ‘The end of military service, war, is the shedding of blood; and even if this happens without guilt, it defiles the one who is responsible for it or who executes it … And the early Church … had a horror of bloodshed.’”

(Ibid., fn9, p. 252)

Vlad, obviously, had no such horror of bloodshed. The more blood he could spill the more terrifying he became to his enemies.

Jesus and the apostles? They didn’t torture, nor did they kill or otherwise harm, their enemies.

When we see the apostles, we see Jesus in them.

When we see Vlad, we don’t see Jesus in him.

Vlad isn’t Christlike. For those contemplating becoming like Vlad, please remember this and think twice before deciding to go down that path.