God incarnate ?
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goodshepard55
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In genesis you can read where God walked in the garden with Adam and Eve in the cool of the evening...that should help answer your questions
Never mentioned in Scripture about God being manifest in flesh, so I'd stick with the premise that he didn't. He did however assume the form of angels several times if my memory serves me correct.
The reference in Eden, I hardly think is God actually walking literally. It's a figurative speech just like the right hand of the Lord. God is invisible. You can't see him.
The reference in Eden, I hardly think is God actually walking literally. It's a figurative speech just like the right hand of the Lord. God is invisible. You can't see him.
why should it be figurative when in the garden of gethsamane He walked and talked with humans - He also spoke to Moses face to face and Moses supposedly saw His backside - the Jews knew that one could not see God and live and yet some did see God and lived,so was it not God incarnate they saw and not a theophany that ate and drank and even had His feet washed - when the disciples thought that Jesus was a theophany did He not tell them that a theophany did not eat and drink etc - winc
I can't reply effectively for fear of being too sarcastic.
As for Moses, here is the verse:
Exo 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
Exo 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
Moses saw just a little of the Lord's glory. Not his body! I would strongly suggest studying up before you even think about asking more questions, if that is what you are actually doing.
Jesus Christ was God manifest in the flesh, but he wasn't walking earth before he was born!?
Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
here then is a bit of studying up that it seems you have missed - thou canst not see my face; for man shall not see me and live[Ex.33;20] - Jn.5;37 & 6;46 - Moses and others saw Him face to face - winc
No.
But Christ did visit the OT patriarchs on earth (Genesis 18). What form and image do you think He had which was not associated with flesh?
I said Jesus was the son of God and not God on another forum debate,and the catholic moderator suspended me.
All I can say is, you asked for it.
Jesus is 'God with us', for that's what His Title of "Immanuel" means (see Matt.1:23 also; see John 1 also).
If Jesus is not God come in the flesh as Messiah, then He would never been able to save us, for only GOD can offer Eternal Life. The Father did that through His Son Jesus Christ.
When Jesus prayed every day,who was he praying to himself?Jesus was in fact the messiah,The Christ,The son of God,The Lamb of God sacrificed for the sins of those who believe in him,but i do not think he was God.He seems to have been half God and Half man.
Jesus Christ was fully God and fully perfect man viz human and divine - the human in Him like all humans should pray to God - winc
Just what do you believe is dependent upon the following, for it is not only about the idea of believers vs. unbelievers...
I Jn 4:1-3
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
(KJV)
If Jesus of Nazareth is not God, then how could He be The Christ (Messiah)?
The Divine Nature of The Christ was defined first in Old Testament Scripture, so the unbelieving Jews especially have no excuse.
Matt 16:13-17
13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that Thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but My Father Which is in heaven.
(KJV)
The idea of knowing The Christ came in the flesh as Jesus of Nazareth can only be revealed to someone by The Father in Heaven. And that's the hinge point of what John was declaring in 1 John 4.
The Father through His prophet in Isaiah 7 declared The Child's Name coming through a virgin would be called "Immanuel". Matthew 1:23 defines that Name to mean "God with us". Anytime... we say Jesus 'Christ', we are saying God come in the flesh as Jesus of Nazareth, God among us.
So those who deny God came in the flesh as Jesus Christ CANNOT assign 'The Christ' title to Jesus of Nazareth. Specifically the Orthodox unbelieving Jews and Satan's servants are the ones who refuse to join that title of The Christ to Jesus.
Essentially then, those who do not believe Jesus of Nazareth is God come in the flesh should never attach the Title of 'Christ' to the name Jesus. But a believer on Him as God having come in the flesh, i.e., God with us, WILL admit to His proper Title of 'Jesus Christ' The Son of God.
It says throughout the scripture that Jesus is Christ as well as the Messiah,there is no debating that,but it does not identify him as God.consider the following verse Matthew20:23 "And he sayeth unto them,ye shall drink of my cup,and be baptized with the baptism i am baptized with:but to sit on my right hand,and on my left,is not mine to give,but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my father" It seems clear to me not just from this verse but from others that Jesus is the Son of God. The idea that Jesus is God may come from the fact that the Spirit of God(the Holy Spirit was in him).Through Jesuses entire life he always refered to God as the father.
We shouldn't be confused with the fact that God came in the flesh as Jesus The Christ, The Son of God, since there is plenty of OT evidence for The Christ as part of The Godhead, never having been created in that Heavenly respect. If we just say His having The Holy Spirit was the only difference while in the flesh, then what about when we... receive The Holy Spirit per His promise? Does that make each one of a Christ too? Obviously not. Recall that when our Lord Jesus stood before John the Baptist telling John to baptize Him, John was reluctant, and said he had need of being baptized instead of Him. That reveals our Lord Jesus did not really require water baptism, but did it to set an example for... us. Look at His prayer the same way, it being because He was in the flesh form, showing we always need to pray. And note who and what He prayed for.
Both... the OT and NT Scripture identifies Jesus Christ as Immanuel, God come in the flesh as The Son of God. Read Hebrews 1 again about Christ's identity. The Alpha and Omega proclamation our Lord Jesus applied to Himself in Revelation 1 and 22 is especially a marker for what God said of Himself in the Books of the prophets. There's 3 Persons in The Godhead, and Christ is one of Them.
Matt 1:23
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
(KJV)
That's a direct quote from Isaiah 7 about "Immanuel".
Jesus Christ is the "express image of His person", referring to The Father per Hebrews 1. This is why Jesus would declare to Philip that if he had seen Him (Jesus), then he had seen The Father.
What is confusing you is the wondering of how The Christ could be born through flesh on earth as Jesus of Nazareth and called the Son of God, while yet being equal to The Father in Heaven, even by His praying to The Father.
Heb 2:7-9
7 Thou madest Him a little lower than the angels; Thou crownedst Him with glory and honour, and didst set Him over the works of Thy hands:
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under His feet. For in that He put all in subjection under Him, He left nothing that is not put under Him. But now we see not yet all things put under Him.
9 But we see Jesus, Who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
(KJV)
The Christ was not made a little lower than the angels in the Heavenly, because Christ is part of The Godhead which had no creation; The Christ being born through a virgin in the flesh as Jesus Christ was a creation though; being born in the flesh is what made that distinction, for His being born in the flesh to die on the cross is what that idea of being "...made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death..." means. The angels are not born in the flesh to suffer death.
Phil 2:5-6
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
(KJV)
That word for "form" (morphe) in the Greek is about a shape appearance. It's only used 3 times in the NT, each time referring to likeness or shape appearance. The meaning is in the form of The Father, in the Heavenly order sense. The next part is about Jesus' flesh shape appearance...
Phil 2:7-8
7 But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
(KJV)
The idea is of The Christ being fashioned as a flesh 'man' on earth known as Jesus Christ, subject to flesh death. So what was He before He came in the flesh? God The Son, specifically The Christ, with the form of God, being equal 'with' God (Father).
Heb 1:4-5
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as He hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said He at any time, "Thou art My Son, this day have I begotten thee?" And again, "I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son?"
(KJV)
That's quoted from Psalms 2. That is said because of what Christ Jesus is ordained to inherit.
Heb 1:6-8
6 And again, when He bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, He saith, "And let all the angels of God worship Him."
7 And of the angels He saith, "Who maketh His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire."
8 But unto the Son He saith, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of Thy kingdom."
(KJV)
In verse 8, The Father is proclaiming The Son as "O God" (quoted from Ps.45:6).
The main difference between The Christ and The Father is that The Father was not born in the flesh to die on the cross. The Father made all things through The Son per Heb.1:2, showing how The Son was not created: the idea of Christ The Son being made in Hebrews is only pointing to His coming in the flesh as Jesus Christ to die on the cross.
Thus it's wrong to try to apply Jesus The Christ as having no existence prior to His coming in the flesh through woman's womb.
Now the WHY... He did all this, coming in the flesh...
Heb 2:14-18
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
That is the Purpose from the beginning of God's Word from Genesis through Revelation. God The Christ came in the flesh as Jesus of Nazareth that through death He might destroy the one given power of death, the devil, and deliver those subject to bondage (us who believe on Him). None other but God could have the power to do that.
Heb.2:16 For verily He took not on Him the nature of angels; but He took on Him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved Him to be made like unto His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that He Himself hath suffered being tempted, He is able to succour them that are tempted.
(KJV)
I see from your posts that you are a believer in the trinity,which is good.I have also read some of your posts on other websites you seem to be very knowledgeble.But i still am doubtful about the trinity.I would like you to examine this verse John14:28"ye have heard how i said to you,i go away,and come again unto you,if you loved me,ye would rejoice,because i said i go unto the father:for my father is greater than I."Now how can you say jesus is God,when he is telling us in his own words he is not.
Hi Plaides,
Messiah is Hebrew and Christ is Greek. Both mean 'anointed'.
When Jesus said His Father was greater I read it as an expression of both His acceptance of being His Son, and also as a sign of His submission to His Father.
Think about this: because He was the Son of God, for Him, perfect obedience to His Father meant dying on the cross for us. It was because of this total submission that God highly exalted Him and gave Him all authority and a name which is above every name.
Regarding the nature of Jesus Christ, (as being both man and God) here is something else for you to think through.
When God made Adam, He made them in His own image. This means man was more like God before the Fall than we are now. When God became a man, we can say He would have looked like Adam before the Fall. Or should we say that oringinally Adam looked like God - until he fell?
When Jesus came, he came in the likeness of sinful flesh. But He was already God. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jesus Christ came to restore the image of God in man. To do that, He had to know what it should be.
The other factor in favour of Jesus being God, is that He was God's Son. In human beings when a woman has a baby, she has a baby human - not a baby of some other species. Since natural birth is modeled on spiritual birth, there is no reason to do away with the order in creation through which God has expressed Himself, because it is this very order which helps us to understand what He is like and who He is.
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood
Genesis 1:11 And God said .... 12 And the earth brought forth grass, [and] herb yielding seed after his kind,
Can you see that God made plants that bore seed which would bring forth an identical plant?
This is the same principle as governs the fruitbearing of humans.
There is no good reason to think that God's Son is not also of the same substance and capability as God, just as being man, He was of the same substance and capabilities as us. One aspect of His mission was to demonstrate what man should be like when he's in fellowship with God.
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
I agree with veteran's point that one needs one's own revelation of truth, which comes from God (not man).
Messiah is Hebrew and Christ is Greek. Both mean 'anointed'.
When Jesus said His Father was greater I read it as an expression of both His acceptance of being His Son, and also as a sign of His submission to His Father.
Think about this: because He was the Son of God, for Him, perfect obedience to His Father meant dying on the cross for us. It was because of this total submission that God highly exalted Him and gave Him all authority and a name which is above every name.
Regarding the nature of Jesus Christ, (as being both man and God) here is something else for you to think through.
When God made Adam, He made them in His own image. This means man was more like God before the Fall than we are now. When God became a man, we can say He would have looked like Adam before the Fall. Or should we say that oringinally Adam looked like God - until he fell?
When Jesus came, he came in the likeness of sinful flesh. But He was already God. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jesus Christ came to restore the image of God in man. To do that, He had to know what it should be.
The other factor in favour of Jesus being God, is that He was God's Son. In human beings when a woman has a baby, she has a baby human - not a baby of some other species. Since natural birth is modeled on spiritual birth, there is no reason to do away with the order in creation through which God has expressed Himself, because it is this very order which helps us to understand what He is like and who He is.
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood
by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead;
Genesis 1:11 And God said .... 12 And the earth brought forth grass, [and] herb yielding seed after his kind,
and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed [was] in itself, after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.
Can you see that God made plants that bore seed which would bring forth an identical plant?
This is the same principle as governs the fruitbearing of humans.
There is no good reason to think that God's Son is not also of the same substance and capability as God, just as being man, He was of the same substance and capabilities as us. One aspect of His mission was to demonstrate what man should be like when he's in fellowship with God.
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
I agree with veteran's point that one needs one's own revelation of truth, which comes from God (not man).
It just seems to me that alot of christians are replacing God with Jesus.I was taught that Jesus is the mediator between us and God.He was never meant to be considered to be Gods equal.
In the old testament when a sacrifice was made to God,it was not then worshipped as a God.Jesus was the last sacrifice,A new covenant between God and his people.The Lamb of God,with his blood we can wash away our sins and be worthy of eternal life.God created Jesus,Jesus did not create God.The idea that the two are in some way equal has been hard for me to grasp.
In the old testament when a sacrifice was made to God,it was not then worshipped as a God.Jesus was the last sacrifice,A new covenant between God and his people.The Lamb of God,with his blood we can wash away our sins and be worthy of eternal life.God created Jesus,Jesus did not create God.The idea that the two are in some way equal has been hard for me to grasp.
Hi Plaides,
There are other verses though, like John 1:18 which justify emphasising the oneness of the Father and the Son.
It's true that scripture doesn't emphasise their equality, and I agree with almost everything you've said here, because the purpose of Messiah's sacrifice was to return the children's hearts to their true Father - God, and to show us that God's heart was towards us, His disobedient children.
There are other verses though, like John 1:18 which justify emphasising the oneness of the Father and the Son.
what does not seem to be grasped or understood is how the son of God can be equally God as His Father - so lets just take the human son and father relationship where the son is just as much and equally human as His father - so where is the problem - winc
John 1:1 states "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God".
John 1:14 continues "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."
Jesus was God before He came to earth. And He is still God after He returned to the Father.
Couppy.
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