God Interprets His Scripture

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, I know exactly what Scripture says about the two witnesses “spewing fire,” and so should you if you're going to quote it. Revelation 11:5 says, “And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies, and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.” That’s not symbolic, and it’s not a metaphor, it’s exactly what the text says. God doesn't need your imagination to soften it. Just like Elijah called down literal fire from heaven (2 Kings 1:10–12), these two prophets are given divine power to issue fire from their mouths as judgment. You mock it with the word “spew” like it's absurd, but you’re mocking the Word of God. The passage says what it says, fire comes out of their mouths, and people die. If that bothers you, the problem isn’t the text, it’s your unwillingness to accept what’s written.

The issue here is not the presence of symbols in Scripture, but how you're handling them. You're interpreting symbols through speculation instead of letting the Word of God define them. Revelation 11 calls these two witnesses prophets, not once, but directly in verse 10, and yet you bypass that clear designation to redefine them as symbolic representations of the Church. But nowhere in Revelation 11 does the Bible say the witnesses are a congregation or collective body. The passage outlines a sequence of events, prophesying, being killed, lying dead for three and a half days, being raised to life, and ascending to heaven in the sight of their enemies. There is no biblical precedent for applying that series of events to the Church. As for your reference to the anointing of believers, yes, all Christians have the Holy Spirit, but the Bible never equates being anointed with holding the prophetic office described in Revelation 11. Being filled with the Spirit does not mean every believer becomes one of the two witnesses. Your conclusion relies on a chain of symbolic connections the Bible itself never makes. If you believe the Church is the two witnesses, then show that directly from the text, not through layered assumptions and broad metaphors, but by rightly dividing the Word as it is written.

So, just to be clear, you believe the two witnesses are two individuals who will literally have physical fire coming out of their mouths that will literally, physically kill their enemies? Is that correct? Kind of like this...



Why is it that they would be allowed to ignore Jesus's command to love our enemies and to turn the other cheek and instead be told to kill their enemies? Your insistence that it's all supposed to be taken literally is causing you to contradict other scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I have one disagreement on your interpretation:

Zechariah 3:8-9 tells us that in Zechariah 4 the two olive trees represent Joshua the High Priest and Zerubabbel the magistrate / king of Israel, and BOTH are types of Christ, who gives power to His two witnesses in Revelation 11:3:

Zechariah 3
8 Listen now, Joshua the high priest, both you and your colleagues who are sitting before you, all of you are a symbol that I am about to introduce my servant, the Branch.
9 As for the stone I have set before Joshua - on the one stone there are seven eyes. I am about to engrave an inscription on it,' says the LORD who rules over all, 'to the effect that I will remove the iniquity of this land in a single day.

Zechariah 4
7 "What are you, you great mountain? Because of Zerubbabel you will become a level plain! And he will bring forth the temple capstone with shoutings of 'Grace! Grace!' because of this."

Zechariah Chapter 4 is all about the building of God's Temple.

The Hebrew of Zechariah 4:14 reads, "These are the sons of oil that stand before the Lord of the whole earth" (the Hebrew word for 'anointed' in verse 14 is the word that is always referring to oil in all other Old Testament passages and verses which use the same word).

Zechariah asks a question about the olive trees TWICE in the passage:

Zechariah 4
3 There are also two olive trees beside it, one on the right of the receptacle and the other on the left."
4 Then I asked the messenger who spoke with me, "What are these, sir?"
5 He replied, "Don't you know what these are?" So I responded, "No, sir."
6 Therefore he told me, "These signify the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: 'Not by strength and not by power, but by my Spirit,' says the LORD who rules over all."
7 "What are you, you great mountain? Because of Zerubbabel you will become a level plain! And he will bring forth the temple capstone with shoutings of 'Grace! Grace!' because of this."
8 Moreover, the word of the LORD came to me as follows:
9 "The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundations of this temple, and his hands will complete it." Then you will know that the LORD who rules over all has sent me to you.

Zerubabbel is a type of Christ laying the foundations of His Temple and His hands also finishing it. So is Joshua, the high priest:

11 Next I asked the messenger, "What are these two olive trees on the right and the left of the menorah?"
12 Before he could reply I asked again, "What are these two extensions of the olive trees, which are emptying out the golden oil through the two golden pipes?"
13 He replied, "Don't you know what these are?" And I said, "No, sir."
14 So he said, "These are the two sons of oil who stand by the Lord of the whole earth."

Zechariah Chapter 4 links the two olive trees, which provide the oil, to Joshua and Zerubbabel (and hence, to Christ). He is THE CAPSTONE of the Temple in Zechariah 3:9. He provides the Holy Spirit and power to:

(i) THE SEVEN LAMPS of the lamp-stand (Zechariah 4:2-3 & 12-14); which are:

(ii) "THE SEVEN EYES OF THE LORD, WHICH RUN TO AND FRO THROUGH THE WHOLE EARTH" (Zechariah 3:9 & Zechariah 4:10); and this is alluded to in Revelation 5:6:

(iii) THE SEVEN EYES OF THE LAMB; which are linked in the same verse to:

(iv) "THE SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD SENT FORTH INTO ALL THE EARTH (Revelation 5:6), which are linked to:

(v) The "SEVEN LAMPS of fire BURNING BEFORE THE THRONE, WHICH ARE THE SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD" (Revelation 4:5).

He also provides the power to His two witnesses (Revelation 11:3).

Therefore because what is written in Zechariah Chapter 4 is also referring to God's temple whose foundation-stone is THE BRANCH, the seven churches mentioned in Revelation 1:12-13 are ALSO being symbolized as candlesticks / lamp-stands / menorahs (whatever we want to call them).

Copy @Spiritual Israelite

I have no problem with your interpretation. It's viable. I personally see a connection between the two olive trees and Romans 11:15-24, so I see the two candlesticks and two olive trees as representing the Jew and Gentile congregation of believers witnessing together as one (one new man, one body, one cultivated olive tree, one temple of God), but it seems most only look at Zechariah 4 for a connection to the two olive trees. Maybe we should be looking at both. Anyway, any interpretation that sees the two witnesses as representing the church and the church preaching through the power of the Holy Spirit is fine with me because that is what I believe the two witnesses represent.

 

[Zao is life]

I have no problem with your interpretation. It's viable. I personally see a connection between the two olive trees and Romans 11:15-24, so I see the two candlesticks and two olive trees as representing the Jew and Gentile congregation of believers witnessing together as one (one new man, one body, one cultivated olive tree, one temple of God), but it seems most only look at Zechariah 4 for a connection to the two olive trees. Maybe we should be looking at both. Anyway, any interpretation that sees the two witnesses as representing the church and the church preaching through the power of the Holy Spirit is fine with me because that is what I believe the two witnesses represent.

I know I disagreed with the connection you find between the olive tree of Romans 11 and the two olive trees of Revelation 11, but it's nevertheless obvious IMO that Zechariah 4 is where Paul gets the symbol of the olive tree from that he used in Romans 11. At least it's now obvious to me (it wasn't before).

And the lamp-stands of Revelation 11:4 are definitely made up of all believers - Jew and Gentile.

Having in mind the remnant of the faithful saints at the time of Christ's return, I don't know whether or not it's significant that of the seven churches only two received only commendation from Christ, and Revelation 11:4 speaks of two lamp-stands. In my mind I'm wondering if that represents the faithful remnant from all the churches, i.e if the seven churches represent all the churches, and the two faithful represent the faithful remnant drawn from among all the churches, symbolized as the two lamp-stands in Revelation 11:4

It's just a thought that's come up in my mind, not a "belief". LOL. I'm still wondering about the numeral "two" as it relates to the lamp-stands (not the olive trees).

I'm grateful that this thread has caused me to go back prayerfully to this subject because though before this I realized that Zechariah 4 must be giving some sort of indication as to what Revelation 11:4 signifies, I did not understand what it was and satisfied myself that I did not know what the identity of the two witnesses is, and may never know before I die. This thread has changed all that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I know I disagreed with the connection you find between the olive tree of Romans 11 and the two olive trees of Revelation 11, but it's nevertheless obvious IMO that Zechariah 4 is where Paul gets the symbol of the olive tree from that he used in Romans 11. At least it's now obvious to me (it wasn't before).

And the lamp-stands of Revelation 11:4 are definitely made up of all believers - Jew and Gentile.

Having in mind the remnant of the faithful saints at the time of Christ's return, I don't know whether or not it's significant that of the seven churches only two received only commendation from Christ, and Revelation 11:4 speaks of two lamp-stands. In my mind I'm wondering if that represents the faithful remnant from all the churches, i.e if the seven churches represent all the churches, and the two faithful represent the faithful remnant drawn from among all the churches, symbolized as the two lamp-stands in Revelation 11:4

That's possible. It's not what I personally believe, but it's certainly a viable possibility. It is interesting that, of the seven churches, only two of them consisted of faithful believers that Jesus didn't need to rebuke.

It's just a thought that's come up in my mind, not a "belief". LOL. I'm still wondering about the numeral "two" as it relates to the lamp-stands (not the olive trees).

It's a reasonable thing to consider.

I'm grateful that this thread has caused me to go back prayerfully to this subject because though before this I realized that Zechariah 4 must be giving some sort of indication as to what Revelation 11:4 signifies, I did not understand what it was and satisfied myself that I did not know what the identity of the two witnesses is, and may never know before I die. This thread has changed all that.

Right. God can reveal anything to us. The scripture is meant to be understood or else it wouldn't have been written. We just have to ask Him to give us wisdom (James 1:5-7).

 

[TribulationSigns]

You boast like you have some secret knowledge, but what you're doing is perverting God’s Word to fit your own ideas. You quote Jeremiah 5:14 completely out of context. That verse is not about believers breathing fire through the gospel, it’s about God declaring judgment on a rebellious people. He said He would make His words in the prophet’s mouth like fire, and the people like wood, because they rejected Him. That’s literal judgment, not some symbolic preaching fire. You’re not interpreting Scripture, you’re inventing nonsense.

Wrongo! Not only God judge His People but he also use His witnesses to judge against those who do not want to hear the truth. Like you…so youll not recieve the love of the Truth on how Two Witness prophesy to the world. Some to salvation. Some to judgment. Cold and Hot. Selah!!

 

[bdavidc]

Wrongo! Not only God judge His People but he also use His witnesses to judge against those who do not want to hear the truth. Like you…so youll not recieve the love of the Truth on how Two Witness prophesy to the world. Some to salvation. Some to judgment. Cold and Hot. Selah!!

Once again, you're response is not biblical. The role of God’s witnesses is not to go around declaring judgment based on personal offense or imagined authority. Scripture defines the purpose of witnessing clearly: it is to proclaim the gospel and call people to repentance through the truth of God’s Word (Luke 24:47, Acts 1:8). Nowhere does the Bible say that believers are given authority to condemn others as if they are the source of judgment. That belongs to God alone. Jesus said, “He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him, the word that I have spoken” (John 12:48). The Word itself judges, not your opinions or mystical ideas.

You misused 2 Thessalonians 2:10 by twisting “they received not the love of the truth” to apply it to me personally, while ignoring what the passage actually teaches. That verse is about those who reject the gospel of Jesus Christ during the time of strong delusion. It has nothing to do with your interpretation of the two witnesses. The two witnesses in Revelation 11 are specifically described, and they prophesy in sackcloth, are given specific powers, and are killed and resurrected in Jerusalem. Their ministry is tied to the end-time events God has already laid out, not some vague claim that anyone who disagrees with you is under judgment.

You're not prophesying. You’re speculating. If you want to speak truth, stick to the Scripture in context. Don’t add to it, don’t twist it, and don’t use it to puff yourself up. Proverbs 30:6 warns, “Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.”

 

[Marty fox]

The law and the prophets pointed to the first coming of the Messiah. The law and prophets were not killed nor did they rise from the dead in the first century. The two witnesses will be killed and will rise from the dead which indicates the return of Jesus.

Sodom indicates moral depravity and Egypt, bondage. IMO it's the bondage to the law of sin and death being symbolized which Paul had in mind when he made the comparison between Hagar and Sarah with the former indicating bondage and the Jerusalem which existed when he wrote (and still exists); and the latter indicating the city of the saints who have been freed from bondage to the law of sin and death.

Galatians 4
21 Tell me, those desiring to be under Law, do you not hear the Law?
22 For it is written: Abraham had two sons, the one out of the slave-woman, and one out of the free woman.
23 But, indeed, he out of the slave-woman has been born according to flesh, and he out of the free woman through the promise;
24 which things are being allegorized; for these are the two covenants, one indeed from Mount Sinai bringing forth to slavery, which is Hagar.
25 For Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in slavery with her children.
26 But the Jerusalem from above is free, who is the mother of us all.​

If you read my post you will see my explanation of the two witnesses dying and rising

 

[TribulationSigns]

Nowhere does the Bible say that believers are given authority to condemn others as if they are the source of judgment.

Joh 7:24
(24) Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Do you understanad what is righteous judgment means.

The two witnesses in Revelation 11 are specifically described, and they prophesy in sackcloth, are given specific powers, and are killed and resurrected in Jerusalem.

1.) Why are they prophesying in sackcloth? What does the sackcloth signifies in Scripture?
2.) What power did they receive, specifically? I gave you the verses but you refused to "receive it with love of Truth!"
3.) How are they going to be killed, exactly?
4.) What death are they going to resurrect from?

I see that you have not answered some of the questions above anyway and I KNOW your doctrine is FALSE. One is because you believe that one of your two witnesses will spew fire on enemies physically!

 

[ewq1938]

If you read my post you will see my explanation of the two witnesses dying and rising

The text does not say "witnesses" but two prophets. The reason is that the two prophets are part of the two witnesses, not the full and complete two witnesses.

Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

 

[bdavidc]

Joh 7:24
(24) Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Do you understanad what is righteous judgment means.




1.) Why are they prophesying in sackcloth? What does the sackcloth signifies in Scripture?
2.) What power did they receive, specifically? I gave you the verses but you refused to "receive it with love of Truth!"
3.) How are they going to be killed, exactly?
4.) What death are they going to resurrect from?

I see that you have not answered some of the questions above anyway and I KNOW your doctrine is FALSE. One is because you believe that one of your two witnesses will spew fire on enemies physically!

TribulationSigns, your attitude and accusations show that you're more interested in provoking than understanding. You quoted John 7:24, “Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment,” but you misuse it. That verse is a rebuke of hypocritical or surface-level judgment, not a license to slander someone and claim you “KNOW” their doctrine is false without dealing honestly with Scripture. Righteous judgment means judging according to the truth of God's Word, not emotion, sarcasm, or assumptions. If you were truly doing that, you'd stick to Scripture, not mockery.

As for Revelation 11, you’re demanding answers to questions that the text already addresses. The two witnesses prophesy in sackcloth because sackcloth in Scripture represents mourning, repentance, and solemn warning (see Joel 1:13, Jonah 3:5–6). That fits their role as prophets sent during a time of severe judgment. They are given power to shut heaven, turn water to blood, and smite the earth with plagues (Revelation 11:6), that’s not speculation, that’s written plainly. If you deny that, you’re not “loving the truth,” you’re rejecting what God actually said. Their death is literal, the text says the beast kills them, their dead bodies lie in the street, and after three and a half days, the Spirit of life from God enters them and they stand on their feet (Revelation 11:7–11). That’s not symbolic, it’s described in physical terms.

Calling my view false because I believe what Revelation says about fire proceeding from their mouth (Revelation 11:5) only proves you're arguing with the Word, not with me. I didn’t write it, I’m just not rewriting it to suit your ideas. If you're not willing to handle Scripture honestly, I’m not going to keep going in circles. Titus 3:10 says, “A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject.” If you keep showing you're only here to argue, I will move on. I don't answer to you, I answer to God, and His Word is clear.

 

[TribulationSigns]

As for Revelation 11, you’re demanding answers to questions that the text already addresses. The two witnesses prophesy in sackcloth because sackcloth in Scripture represents mourning, repentance, and solemn warning (see Joel 1:13, Jonah 3:5–6).

Good, but exactly WHY do the Two Witnesses mourn? Not two men, but all faithful Elect who preach the Gospel to the world.

The symbolism in Revelation of sackcloth is to signify that the elect prophecy in mourning. And if you doesn't think that the true Church's testimony is with sackcloth, then you either don't know the true state of most of mankind, or they don't really know what the sackcloth represents.

Matthew 5:4

• "Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted."

We, as Elect, mourn both for our own sins, and the sins of others. And those who do not mourn, do not know their sins, or the sins of the world, nor what is the end of such sin. As lot's soul was vexed by sin, so all true believers souls are troubled by sin. We grieve for the world, and sackcloth is that material which in scripture illustrates that grieving or mourning. This can be seen when people of the Old Testament would have reason to mourn they would cover themselves in sackcloth and/or ashes to signify their vexation.

Genesis 37:34

• "And Jacob rent his clothes, and put sackcloth upon his loins, and mourned for his son many days."

2nd Samuel 3:31

• "And David said to Joab, and to all the people that were with him, Rend your clothes, and gird you with sackcloth, and mourn before Abner. And king David himself followed the bier."

Ester 4:1-3

• "When Mordecai perceived all that was done, Mordecai rent his clothes, and put on sackcloth with ashes, and went out into the midst of the city, and cried with a loud and a bitter cry.
• ..there was a great mourning among the Jews, and fasting, and weeping and wailing; and many lay in sackcloth and Ashes."

The sackcloth in scripture signifies a cloak of mourning. And that's what the two witnesses prophesy in. Selah! They are mourning for the fact that so few will receive the Word of God that they testify of, that they might be saved. They know the end of such actions, and they are saddened by the state of man, and their knowledge that the Word of judgment is upon them for such rejections. In other words, the Word of God is as sweet as honey to us, but it is also bitter in that we know what it means to those who reject it. True Believers love their neighbor as themselves, and therefore desire the same for them which they themselves have received of God. And it is a great sadness when man rejects the truth they bring, for they know it is then judgement unto them. Therefore do they witness in mourning, their souls vexed or saddened knowing the judgement of God.

2nd Corinthians 5:10-11

• "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
• Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences."

We know the terror of the Lord, and we know these are under judgement and thus do we prophecy in sadness mourning because of what we know.
The overview of verse three is that when the command was given to measure the Temple, and the altar, and all that dwell therein, that God gave to his two witnesses that they would prophecy a thousand two hundred and threescore days clothed in sackcloth. It is essential to the chapter to understand that these two witnesses do 'NOT' represent the corporate or external covenant church as some have surmised, or the two individual fire-breathing men These two witnesses represent a spiritual community of true believers only, who come with God's judicial law to a wicked and perverse world. They don't represent the external Church, and they don't represent two men, they represent God's Holy people, the eternal indivisible Church who is faithful and elect. It is through 'this' Church that God will show forth His judgment and prophecy. Mysteries will be made known by God's elect Church.

Selah!

That fits their role as prophets sent during a time of severe judgment. They are given power to shut heaven, turn water to blood, and smite the earth with plagues (Revelation 11:6), that’s not speculation, that’s written plainly. If you deny that, you’re not “loving the truth,” you’re rejecting what God actually said.

You misunderstood my point. The power to shut up heaven, turn water into blood, and strike the earth with plagues, along with the faithful testimony, will not limited to the end times but pertains to the entire New Testament period, represented by the symbolic 1,260 days.

Furthermore, I bet you don’t fully grasp the meanings of shutting up heaven, turning water into blood, or striking the earth with plagues. Do you genuinely believe these events are to be interpreted literally? I would like to hear your explanations of their biblical meanings.

Their death is literal

No! Before you understand the nature of the killing of Two Witnesses, you need to take a look at verse 5:

Rev 11:5

• (5) And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

Scripture tells us that the Word of God from the mouth of God's prophets is as a fire which devours His enemies. This is because it is a Word of judgment. Symbolically speaking, as fire is to wood, so is the Word of God to the wicked because it is the declaration of their fiery destruction which cannot return void. The Word of God is either a witness of truth unto man for His Salvation, or it is a witness against man unto his judgment.

Again, this is the marvelous symbolic imagery that God uses here to show us that He is not speaking literally. Would those theologians who claim that these are physically two people, also claim that they are literally fire breathing people who roast the wicked with flames from their mouths? Of course not! For even they understand that this is symbolism. And yet they will inconsistently attempt to draw the conclusion that the two witnesses from who's mouth proceeds symbolic fire, are literally two people, huh?! But inconsistency is the hallmark of error! If they were two literal people, then their mouths are literal, and the fire from it literal. And the mouth is another clue that this fire is 'symbolizing' the Word of God. The very fact that we are told it comes from their mouths, brings clarity to the symbolism. The mouth is where words of fire come FROM, not literal flames. Selah!

What words does the faithful Church speak that is like a fire to burn the enemies of God? Clearly, our Lord tells us that it is the Word of God. The Church comes in mourning because they recognize the seriousness of sin, and they know that the world is going to hell in a hand basket. Their Word of testimony to repent and be saved is as cool waters to those who by Grace of God 'receive' it, but their testimony of sure judgment and God's vengeance upon the unrepentant is as fire to those who do not want to hear it. Man in his destitute heart reviles and scoffs and shows their hatred for the witness to the truth, and when that happens, the Word is a witness of judgment upon their heads! These unrepentant are those devoured by the fire from the witness of the Church. For on the one hand God's Word is as cool waters to a thirsty soul to those who will receive it..

Proverbs 25:25

• "As cold waters to a thirsty soul, so is good news from a far country."

..and on the other hand it's like a flaming fire to those who will not receive it. Get it? As the Lord spoke in Jeremiah that His Word is symbolically likened unto this fire:


Jeremiah 23:29-31

• "..Is not My Word like a fire saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
• Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.
• Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith."

Unambiguously, God is using fire to 'symbolize' His Word to the people. He is declaring that it will judge the false prophets of His congregation for making their own words to be the Word of God. This is spiritual idolatry. In other words, man is making a false god in the Temple by claiming his own words, are God's Words. God's Word is as a fire and will destroy these who do such things. And in verse twenty three of that chapter, God illustrates He will be a God afar off from them. Here is very clear precedence of the Lord speaking of those who come bringing 'His Word,' and He 'signifies' them as His servants who come with fire from their mouths. It's not idle speculation, it is Biblical fact that the judgment of His congregation by His servants coming with the Word, is as them coming with fire from their mouths.

Contiune to next post

 

[TribulationSigns]

Calling my view false

Because it is.

because I believe what Revelation says about fire proceeding from their mouth (Revelation 11:5)

Based on what Scripture proof?! Where do you find someone spew literal fire out of their mouths in Scripture?? Humm?

only proves you're arguing with the Word, not with me.

LOL. Very unlikely. I am the one who has testified WITH the Word. So its you who are arguing with God. :-)

If you're not willing to handle Scripture honestly, I’m not going to keep going in circles.

You are the one who is running in circles because you have not really proven any Scripture support for your false doctrine so far.

Titus 3:10 says, “A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject.” If you keep showing you're only here to argue, I will move on. I don't answer to you, I answer to God, and His Word is clear.

Well, the Lord judges that you are not truthful witnesses to His Word because you have not really proven anything biblically. I have. Have fun searching for your two physical fire-breathing men to fit your doctrine. Let me know when you do, and we can talk. Oh wait, that is right, you think you won't because you will be raptured out before your two men show up? LOL. Typical false premillennial doctrines.

 

[Zao is life]

The text does not say "witnesses" but two prophets. The reason is that the two prophets are part of the two witnesses, not the full and complete two witnesses.

Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

I'm still studying this, because unlike the rest of you guys I don't have a conclusion engraved in stone about it (so please don't tell me again that I have an amateur way of looking at things just because what I say may be disagreeing with your interpretation of this).

The finer details in the scriptures I'm about to point out below is confirmation (again) of what you are saying:

* Zechariah 3:8-9 tells us that the two olive trees of Zechariah Chapter 4 are symbols of Joshua and Zurubbabel - two individuals who in turn were a symbol that the LORD was about to bring forth His servant, THE BRANCH.

* Christ is THE CAPSTONE of the Temple in Zechariah 3:8-9. He provides the Holy Spirit and power to His two witnesses in Revelation 11:3.

But candlesticks / lamp-stands are not the candles / lamps themselves, but the lamp-stands:

Matthew 5:15:
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick [luchnia]; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

G3087 λυχνία lucniva luchnia {lookh-nee'-ah}
a lamp-stand (literally or figuratively):--candlestick.

Therefore, because they are lamp-stands and not the lamps themselves, the lamp-stands in Revelation 11:4 seem to symbolize two churches

- but IF each of the two lamp-stands symbolizes a menorah, then each will have seven lamps, i.e FOURTEEN lamps in total.

This is important, because

* Zechariah saw fourteen pipes going to the lamp-stand from the olive trees beside it (Zechariah 4:2); and

* he was told that the two 'sons of oil' / anointed ones that stand by the God of the whole earth are the branches / conduits through which the oil from the olive trees is poured out (Zechariah 4:12-14).

* The two branches of the olive trees / 'sons of oil' / anointed ones could still be referring to Joshua and Zerubbabel, who had been appointed by God with respect to His house, and were symbols that God was about to bring about THE BRANCH (Zechariah 3:8-9),

* As you have pointed out, Revelation 11:10 calls the two witnesses 'prophets'.

So you could be correct that the two anointed ones / branches of the olive tree in Zechariah 4:12-14 through which the Holy Spirit is being poured out are (like Joshua and Zerubbabel) the leaders of the Lord's flock - the leaders of the two lamp-stands (which seem to support seven lamps each - fourteen lamps, corresponding to the fourteen pipes Zechariah saw in Zechariah 4:2). THE TWO WITNESSES.

Copy FYI @Spiritual Israelite @TribulationSigns​

 

[bdavidc]

Good, but exactly WHY do the Two Witnesses mourn? Not two men, but all faithful Elect who preach the Gospel to the world.

You’re twisting clear prophetic Scripture into a symbolic fog that strips the text of its plain meaning. Revelation 11 doesn’t say the two witnesses are a “symbolic church,” it calls them two. That’s the Greek word duo (δύο), meaning two in number, not two million. The passage describes them as individuals with defined roles, distinct powers, and a literal death and resurrection. The text says they “shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth” (Revelation 11:3), and when they finish their testimony, “the beast... shall kill them” (Revelation 11:7). It does not say they fade away metaphorically, it says their bodies will lie in the street for three and a half days and be seen by all people (Revelation 11:8–9). If you spiritualize that into “church persecution” or “figurative martyrdom,” you’re rejecting what God plainly said.

You mock the idea of literal fire proceeding from their mouths, but your logic backfires. If that’s symbolic, then do you also deny Elijah called literal fire from heaven (1 Kings 18:38)? God has used fire both literally and symbolically, but Revelation 11 gives no indication that this is allegory. You have to import that. And your use of Jeremiah 23 to reinterpret Revelation is reckless. God’s Word is indeed like fire (Jeremiah 23:29), but that doesn’t mean every fire mentioned in prophecy is symbolic. That’s eisegesis, not exegesis.

As for saying the two witnesses are “not two men,” that directly contradicts Hebrews 11:5 and 2 Kings 2:11, which mention two men who never died: Enoch and Elijah. Malachi 4:5 explicitly says Elijah will be sent “before the great and dreadful day of the Lord.” That prophecy still stands. Your allegorical reading wipes that away with no biblical warrant.

You can spin sackcloth into an emotional metaphor for church grief all you want, but the Bible defines sackcloth repeatedly as literal clothing worn during times of national mourning, judgment, and repentance. The witnesses wear it because they are calling the world to repent during God’s final judgments, not because they're sad about low church attendance.

You also denied their literal death. That’s a blatant contradiction of Revelation 11:7–9, which says they will be killed, their dead bodies will lie in the street, and people will rejoice over their death. That is literal, not poetic. And the Spirit of life from God will enter them, and they will stand on their feet (Revelation 11:11). If you still call that symbolic, you’re no longer interpreting Scripture, you’re rewriting it.

You claim to love truth, but you're rejecting the plain truth of the text. You’re promoting a doctrine that spiritualizes away the judgment of God and reshapes prophecy into feel-good symbolism. That’s not sound doctrine. That’s deception. Paul warned that many would not endure sound teaching, but would turn aside to myths (2 Timothy 4:3–4). This is one of them.

I will not waste more time debating fantasy. I gave Scripture. You chose allegory. I’m done.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You’re twisting clear prophetic Scripture into a symbolic fog that strips the text of its plain meaning. Revelation 11 doesn’t say the two witnesses are a “symbolic church,” it calls them two. That’s the Greek word duo (δύο), meaning two in number, not two million.

LOL. You may need to learn how to find God's definition for the number 2. What does the number 2 signify in Scripture? For example, in the symbolic book of Revelation, The number 7 is the number of "completeness," as in the 7 days equaling a week, 7 churches of Asia, 7 Spirits of God, 7 loaves, 7 stars, 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 eyes, etc. These are not to be understood as physical number but has spiritual significance.

Likewise with number two. That means the absolute truth! All through scripture we see the number two used to illustrate truthfulness or faithfulness. Whether it's the Spiritual signification of the two candlesticks, or the two fishes that feed thousands, or the two brothers (The sons of Thunder), or when the Disciples said, "Lord, Here are two swords" (Luke 22:38) and Jesus said, it is enough, etc., etc. The symbolism of the number two in scripture for the truth or the faithful witness is clear.

Selah!

The passage describes them as individuals with defined roles, distinct powers, and a literal death and resurrection. The text says they “shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth” (Revelation 11:3), and when they finish their testimony, “the beast... shall kill them” (Revelation 11:7). It does not say they fade away metaphorically, it says their bodies will lie in the street for three and a half days and be seen by all people (Revelation 11:8–9). If you spiritualize that into “church persecution” or “figurative martyrdom,” you’re rejecting what God plainly said.

Sigh!!!

You mock the idea of literal fire proceeding from their mouths, but your logic backfires. If that’s symbolic, then do you also deny Elijah called literal fire from heaven (1 Kings 18:38)?

Did the so-called literal fire comes out of his mouth? LOL! Don't you understand that the mouth signifies WORD that comes out of it. And it comes out as "FIRE" which means it is a judgment upon those who resist the Truth. Come on!

God has used fire both literally and symbolically, but Revelation 11 gives no indication that this is allegory.

Sounds like you are in denial because it came against your false doctrine. The fire that came out of the mouths in Revelation 11 is are allegory!

And your use of Jeremiah 23 to reinterpret Revelation is reckless. God’s Word is indeed like fire (Jeremiah 23:29), but that doesn’t mean every fire mentioned in prophecy is symbolic. That’s eisegesis, not exegesis.

False. It is sound hermeneutics to compare Scripture with Scripture.

As for saying the two witnesses are “not two men,” that directly contradicts Hebrews 11:5 and 2 Kings 2:11, which mention two men who never died: Enoch and Elijah.

We've seen clear scripture which supports the candlestick, Olive Tree, Witnesses, and Prophets, are all used in scripture as representations of the Church. We've seen Biblical evidence that God uses the number two, and specifically, two witnesses, to illustrate a confirmation of that which is true. It is the true Church of God that is sent forth with power to witness in truth (as the 12 Apostles were sent out two by two). By contrast, there are no scriptures which say that the olive tree is Moses, or that it is Elijah, or that candlesticks symbolize enoch or the two covenants. That fact alone means that such personal interpretations are purely speculation by you, like with some theologians. In other words, it is not something which is actually declared, or which stands upon solid scripture. Selah!

Malachi 4:5 explicitly says Elijah will be sent “before the great and dreadful day of the Lord.” That prophecy still stands. Your allegorical reading wipes that away with no biblical warrant.

LOL!!!! Don't you ever read Scripture? Malachi 4.5 did NOT talk about Elijah but John the Baptist WITH THE SPIRIT AND POWER of ELIJAH! DUH!

Luke 1:17

• (17) And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

John was NOT a reincarnation of Elijah. It simply means that John had the same spirit and power as Elijah during the days of Christ. Additionally, Malachi relates to the first coming of Christ and the Old Testament congregation, not the last days as you think. Your argument has been refuted.

You can spin sackcloth into an emotional metaphor for church grief all you want,

Take this up to God Almighty yourself.

but the Bible defines sackcloth repeatedly as literal clothing worn during times of national mourning, judgment, and repentance.

Yes, yes, yes, sackcloth represents mourning. In Revelation 11, the Two Witnesses, also known as the Church, are described as being clothed in sackcloth to mourn for those who refuse to accept the love of the truth and be saved while they preach. It is the same as when you preach salvation gospel to your family but your daughter do not want to hear it or believe it, you mourn for her. Don’t you understand this at all? You seem more focused on two literal men wearing physical sackcloth who can unleash fires that destroy tanks and drones. You are missing the point entirely; you do not grasp the spiritual significance of this matter.

The witnesses wear it because they are calling the world to repent during God’s final judgments, not because they're sad about low church attendance.

Low church attendance?

SIGH!!!

You also denied their literal death.

You don't understand. Do you realize that when someone hates you, they are guilty of murder? This is supported by Matthew 5:21-22 and 1 John 3:15. Many professed Christians will not want to hear what the truthful witnesses have to say. These witnesses will be hated and killed in order to silence their testimony in the streets of the great city (the Church). They hate two witnesses becaue their testimony of Truth TORMENTS them! When Two Witnesses has been silenced (killed) they can no longer effectively preach the truth within the external covenant church because the spirit of Satan is ruling there. The leaders have departed from the faith and embraced doctrines of devils. Selah!

That’s a blatant contradiction of Revelation 11:7–9, which says they will be killed, their dead bodies will lie in the street, and people will rejoice over their death.

Wrong. Far from mourning the demise of the true witnesses in the Church, the unsaved rejoice that the Word of life they brought has been silenced, because these faithful witnesses of God tormented them. And the means of their torment was their testimony of fire from their mouths, which would burn them. Their testimony that their sin was not going to be winked at by God, but judged.

That's why Revelation 11:10 says they all rejoiced and made merry when these witnesses (and consequently the truth they brought in the City) were dead. Finally, they would sit as their own gods to reign as their own authority in the Church, and could now do it without the torment of hearing the truth. They could now sit without having light shine to reveal their darkness. Of course, they don't actually say they hate the truth verbally or literally, because they are deluded and deceived by the beast. But their mind set is adversarial to it, and their actions are to usurp it. Being deceived by the spirit of antichrist they look to supplant God's Word with their own words. This obviously is esteeming themselves the authority and not God.
Sending gifts is a natural expression of honor or of the joy in celebration. The scriptures testify that men gave gifts to honor someone or to show reverence for them. Just as the [magos] or wise men from the east brought the baby Jesus gifts (Matthew 2:11). It was to signify the honor they held Him in[34]. Here in Revelation chapter eleven this exchanging gifts signifies that they are paying homage to each other 'as if' they are somebody. They are honoring themselves in place of God. Man supplanting the Word of God (and thus God) and sitting in the Temple to rule 'as if' he is God. And he is receiving gifts (honor) of men for doing so. This is symbolizing their showing reverent regard for each other. This should be for God, but now that they are free from the torment of God's Word, they honor themselves. In doing so they are serving a false god in the temple, rather that the true God of the Bible. They reject God's law and are serving themselves (lawless man, or the man of sin) and seek after gifts, the glory of men, rather than of God. Selah!

That is literal, not poetic.

Say the natural man.

Continue to next post.

 

[TribulationSigns]

And the Spirit of life from God will enter them, and they will stand on their feet (Revelation 11:11). If you still call that symbolic, you’re no longer interpreting Scripture, you’re rewriting it.

God did. If you understand the Spirit of Life, and how the Two Witnesses resurrected from that death (silence) and the meaning of standing upon their feet, I bet you do not understand!

You claim to love truth, but you're rejecting the plain truth of the text.

Hey, let me know when you find two fire-breathing men coming with Christmas gifts. Okay?

You’re promoting a doctrine that spiritualizes away the judgment of God and reshapes prophecy into feel-good symbolism. That’s not sound doctrine. That’s deception. Paul warned that many would not endure sound teaching, but would turn aside to myths (2 Timothy 4:3–4). This is one of them.

I will not waste more time debating fantasy. I gave Scripture. You chose allegory. I’m done.

Goodbye! And you remain refuted! :-)