God Interprets His Scripture

[bdavidc]

Nope.


Yes, according to God's definition of candlesticks and olive trees.



Well, you admit it.... but....


In THIS chapter, meaning you refuse to compare Scripture with Scripture.


What 1,260 days do you think God is talking about here? Literal days? Symbolical Days?


How do they get killed?


What street is it? It is a literal street in literal city?

No, the Church is the earthly representation of this city, and that is WHY Jesualem is used as a sign, figure or token of this spiritual Jerusalem. The believers (Two Witnesses) being dead or lifeless in the STREETS (plateia) or wide space of THIS great city signifies their state in the midst of the Church. Selah! Being killed or dead means that their testimony has been silenced by the false prophets and christs. The witness of God is no longer tolerated there and the power that these had to preach the Word of God there has been taken from them. They have been overcome and silenced by the beast released from the pit by God. This does not affect their Salvation of course, and that is why Revelation chapter seven says they all had to be sealed first. But the beast affects their witness or testimony in the Churches. They cannot effectively preach in the external covenant Church anymore because the spirit of Satan is ruling there, and the leaders have departed from the faith unto doctrines of devils. This is why God says of this great city that, it is 'spiritualy' called Sodom and Egypt. Because though the external Church still retains the name of Christ, spiritually speaking it has become as these two cities which were infamous for their abominations and bondage to Satan. When God's people turn from God and forsake His laws, God speaks of them in the spiritual sense as being in bondage of Egypt and in the abominations of Sodom.

Acts 7:39

• "To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,"

Jeremiah 23:14

• "I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah."

In Revelation 11, the unfaithful congregation is signified spiritually as being Sodom and Egypt because the character of the Church is as it was in these wicked places. Sodom with all her abominations within her did all manner of evil, and in like manner the Church has also become an abomination to God just as Sodom was. The beast has come upon her and she is in apostasy, blatantly having no regard for God's precepts or the witness of truth. Egypt symbolizes a house of bondage. The freeing of Israel from Egypt was used as a figure of believers being redeemed from out of Satan's House of bondage.

Selah!



We need to read verses carefully:

Rev 11:9-10

• And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
• they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Do you understand this?

Though they surely will deny that these witnesses they silenced taught the truth, they see what their actions have done to them, and recognize that their voice has been eliminated. But they do not repent nor mourn the loss of their truthful witness in the Churches. These people who are from all over the world, from all kindreds (families), tongues (languages) and nations, who see the death of the witnesses in the wide ways do not care about them. We read that they do not bother to bury them. This symbolizes that the people of the world who have come up into the Church have no regret, and they do not mourn for the fact that the witnesses of truth have been silenced in the City. There is no repentance shown for what they have done. THat is why you are hearing more and more people in the church do not care about the truth anymore. In other words, love of God grows cold!

And the unsaved rejoice that the Word of life they brought has been silenced, because these faithful witnesses of God tormented them. And the means of their torment was their testimony of fire from their mouths which would burn them. Their testimony that their sin was not going to be winked at by God, but judged. Their testimony that God was immutable, a God of mercy, but also a God of wrath (Revelation 20:1; Galatians 5:21, 1st John 2:4, etc.) God's Word has always been a torment to the wicked. It's the reason Herod's wife had John the Baptist beheaded. His words tormented her and hatred bred 'anger' against Him. And this is why these witnesses were killed. Their words were that God would send plagues upon the land for their forsaking Him, and that their waters of life would be turned to blood because of their lawlessness. Like today, when Faithful Christians say that the homosexuals can't get married in the Church, or become a pastor of the Church, or the women can't be pastor of the Church, etc. The wicked are offended by it and created anger (murder in heart) against the faithful witnesses to the point that their faithful witnesses are no longer heard or considerde in the church and they would careless. This is the spiritual state of the Church today. Nothing ot do with physical Jersualem or her streets in the middle East. You won't find two men over there becasue you misunderstood who two witnesses are in God's eyes. Period!

Contiune to next post

You are twisting Revelation 11 into a symbolic allegory that flatly contradicts what the text actually says. That’s not discernment, that’s deception. You are doing exactly what Peter warned about, wresting the Scriptures to your own destruction (2 Peter 3:16).

The Word of God does not describe these two witnesses as a vague representation of the church. It calls them two witnesses, who prophesy for 1,260 days (Revelation 11:3), have power to shut heaven, turn water to blood, and smite the earth with plagues (verse 6), and are killed by the beast that comes up from the bottomless pit (verse 7). These are described as two real prophets, not a symbolic group. Your attempt to dissolve clear, literal details into spiritual metaphors is a direct rejection of what is plainly written.

You accuse me of refusing to compare Scripture with Scripture, that is false. I do compare Scripture with Scripture, but I don’t force outside passages to override the plain meaning of the text in front of me. Revelation 11 interprets itself. These are not just candlesticks and olive trees, they are identified as prophets (Revelation 11:10). And prophets are people, not metaphors for "the church." You’re inserting your system into the text and calling it revelation. That’s not interpretation, that’s eisegesis.

You spiritualize everything, the witnesses, the street, the city, the killing, until there’s nothing left of what God actually said. But God didn’t give us His Word so we could rewrite it with mystical commentary. He said what He meant, and He meant what He said. When Revelation uses a symbol, it often interprets it. But here, God gives detailed descriptions, not abstract poetry. You’re not honoring Scripture, you’re overriding it.
Your interpretation ends up silencing what God clearly revealed and replaces it with man-centered theory. That is not rightly dividing the Word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15), it is corrupting it. The Bible warns against those who claim to speak for God while rejecting what He plainly said:

Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing (Ezekiel 13:3).

You claim these are not two men, but God never said that. You say this is about the church today, but Revelation never once calls these witnesses "the church." Stop changing the Word of God to fit your allegory. Every word of God is pure, not subject to man’s private interpretation (Proverbs 30:5, 2 Peter 1:20).

Repent of this spiritualizing nonsense and return to what is written. God’s truth doesn’t need your imagination, it needs your obedience. Let the text speak. Two witnesses means two witnesses. Period.

 

[bdavidc]

Listen, how did the Two Witnesses get killed? (hint, hint!). How do they rise from THAT death? And what is the meaning of going into heaven in a CLOUD> What does God define the cloud as?



It is definitely the Church, more specifically, the True Christians.


LOL! Like two individuals will spew literal fire at people? Humm?? No you need to learn how to compare Scripture with Scirpture to find out what God talk about. Its not what you think it is.


Becasue you did not check with other Scriptures for God's definition.


Sigh! He already did... :-)


Say people who don't like hear the truth. Are you going to try to silence my truthful testimony?


Like what? Show me the example!


(chuckle). Yes the resurrection of Two Witnesses mimics the resurrection of Jesus, but do you realize that when Christ resurrected, he had not yet come to the Father. Think about it.



Sorry to disappoint you, but nope.


The church preached for 1,260 symbolically days, from Pentecost to the Last Elect.


Yes, the wicked will hate (murder) the Witnesses for speaking up the Truth.


Silenced so that the message of Salvation ended.


Resurrected by the Spirit of Life to prophesy again. This time, as judgment upon the unfaithful Church.


Fled to God's mountain, standing afar off from Babylon and witnessing her judgment, knowing that Christ will return soon. This is why the Two Witnesses will not ascend to the Father immediately after their resurrection. There will be a period (eg. one hour) for the judgment of the unfaithful Church following the resurrection of the Two Witnesses. It is not the end yet, as this is still part of the sixth trumpet, not the seventh trumpet (the last trumpet). Be sure to read Revelation 11 carefully!



We both read the same verses, only the wise can understand and the foolish or natural man wont! Selah!

You claim “only the wise can understand and the foolish or natural man won’t,” but that’s exactly what false teachers always say when they’re caught twisting Scripture. The truth is, it’s not about hidden knowledge, it’s about whether or not you actually believe what is plainly written. God did not give us the Book of Revelation so we could rewrite it with riddles and reinvent it with symbolism every time it challenges our assumptions. The real issue here is not wisdom or spiritual depth, it’s obedience to the written Word of God. The words of the Lord are pure words (Psalm 12:6), and the two witnesses are described with specific, physical events that match actual prophets, not vague metaphors for “true Christians.”

You mock the literal reading of Revelation 11 and say “LOL! Like two individuals will spew literal fire?” as if God is limited by your imagination. Did fire not come from heaven in the days of Elijah? Did God not part the Red Sea, raise the dead, and speak through a donkey? You laugh at Scripture the way scoffers always have, but the Bible warns, Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts (2 Peter 3:3).

You said the resurrection in Revelation 11 is symbolic, and the two witnesses don’t ascend to heaven, they just “flee to God’s mountain.” That is a blatant denial of the text. Revelation 11:12 says, they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies beheld them. That is not figurative, it is direct. If God wanted to say they simply “stood afar off,” He would’ve said that, but He didn’t. You are rejecting what He wrote, and inserting your own system in its place.

You claim I “refuse to compare Scripture with Scripture,” which is flat-out false. I compare Scripture carefully, but I don’t abuse cross-references to override the plain meaning of the passage in front of me. You spiritualize every detail until nothing concrete remains. That’s not “deep understanding,” that’s corruption of the Word of God. We are not as many, which corrupt the word of God (2 Corinthians 2:17). You can string together verses out of context all day, but if your interpretation contradicts what the passage plainly says, it’s false.

You said the witnesses are “true Christians” and the beast kills their testimony, not them. But Revelation 11:7 says plainly, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. That is not symbolic silence, that is death. And verse 8 says their dead bodies lie in the street. Not a movement, not a metaphor. Real people. Real death. You are adding to the words of the prophecy of this book, and Revelation 22:18 gives a strong warning to anyone who does that.

The Word of God is not yours to rewrite. Stop twisting it into what you wish it said, and start submitting to what it actually says. God’s truth is not mystical code for the elite, it is given to all who believe and receive it with faith, not those who spiritualize it into something unrecognizable. Let God be true, but every man a liar (Romans 3:4). The two witnesses are two literal men, raised by God to preach, killed by the beast, and resurrected by His power, just like He said. Period.

 

[bdavidc]

Luke 16:19-31​

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New International Version​

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The Rich Man and Lazarus​

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Not only does Jesus predict His death and resurrection, Jesus also states that He won’t be sending back any prophets because Israel wouldn’t believe. All Israel needs to believe that Jesus was the Messiah is the law and the prophets who the two witnesses are symbolic for.

What you're saying here isn't supported by the text, and it's important we let Scripture speak for itself instead of reading our own ideas into it. Luke 16:19–31 never says that Jesus “won’t be sending back any prophets.” That’s not in the passage. What it actually says is that if people won’t listen to Moses and the Prophets, they won’t be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead. That’s a statement about the hardness of heart, not a cancellation of future messengers. And Jesus did rise from the dead, and most still didn’t believe.

The claim that the two witnesses in Revelation are symbolic of the Law and the Prophets simply doesn’t match what the chapter actually says. Revelation 11 gives very specific details, they will prophesy for 1,260 days, have power to shut the sky, strike the earth with plagues, be killed by the beast, lie dead in the street, be seen by all nations, rise from the dead, and ascend to heaven. That doesn’t describe the Old Testament, it describes two real people. In fact, Revelation 11:10 calls them “prophets.” There’s no indication that these are metaphors or symbols. If God meant to say “the Scriptures will be rejected,” He could’ve said that plainly, but He didn’t. Instead, He gave a literal sequence of future events.

We’re told not to go beyond what is written (1 Corinthians 4:6), and we’re warned not to add to or take away from the words of prophecy (Revelation 22:18–19). It’s not about being clever with symbols, it’s about submitting to the Word as it stands. If we don’t believe the clear parts, we’ll twist the rest too. The two witnesses are not symbolic of the Law and the Prophets, they are two real prophets who will appear in the end times, just like the Bible says.

 

[bdavidc]

No, the 2W are two churches and two persons. It's the two persons, called the olive trees and the two prophets that are the only two individuals who are part of the 2W. The two candlesticks are two churches which is an unknown amount of people.

Your wrong! What you’re claiming is not what Revelation 11 says. You are trying to merge two separate things, the two individuals and two churches, into one symbolic hybrid that the text never defines. That’s adding your own interpretation where God gave none.

Revelation 11:3–12 describes two specific people, called my two witnesses, who prophesy, perform miracles, are killed, lie dead in the street, are seen by the world, are raised to life, and ascend into heaven. This is literal, detailed, and specific. It also calls them “two prophets” in verse 10. These are clearly individuals.

Now, yes, Revelation 11:4 says, These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. But you are forcing a symbolic definition from Revelation 1:20 back onto this passage when the text doesn't apply it that way. Revelation 1:20 explains that in that vision, the seven candlesticks represent the seven churches. But that does not mean every candlestick in Revelation is always a church. That is reading into the text instead of reading out of it.

In Revelation 11, the focus is not on seven candlesticks or the church as a whole, it is on two witnesses described as prophets, performing public acts of judgment, and being seen, hated, killed, and raised. That does not fit churches, and God never says these witnesses are “partially symbolic” or “half church, half person.” That’s your system, not Scripture.

You are forcing two different categories, individuals and corporate groups, into one label that the Bible never combines. That’s confusion, not sound doctrine. Scripture warns:

Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar (Proverbs 30:6).
Every word of God is pure (Proverbs 30:5).

Let the text say what it says. The two witnesses are two real prophets, not a vague mixture of people groups and metaphors. If God wanted to say they were churches, He would have. He didn’t. Believe what is written, not what isn’t.

 

[Marty fox]

What you're saying here isn't supported by the text, and it's important we let Scripture speak for itself instead of reading our own ideas into it. Luke 16:19–31 never says that Jesus “won’t be sending back any prophets.” That’s not in the passage. What it actually says is that if people won’t listen to Moses and the Prophets, they won’t be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead. That’s a statement about the hardness of heart, not a cancellation of future messengers. And Jesus did rise from the dead, and most still didn’t believe.

The claim that the two witnesses in Revelation are symbolic of the Law and the Prophets simply doesn’t match what the chapter actually says. Revelation 11 gives very specific details, they will prophesy for 1,260 days, have power to shut the sky, strike the earth with plagues, be killed by the beast, lie dead in the street, be seen by all nations, rise from the dead, and ascend to heaven. That doesn’t describe the Old Testament, it describes two real people. In fact, Revelation 11:10 calls them “prophets.” There’s no indication that these are metaphors or symbols. If God meant to say “the Scriptures will be rejected,” He could’ve said that plainly, but He didn’t. Instead, He gave a literal sequence of future events.

We’re told not to go beyond what is written (1 Corinthians 4:6), and we’re warned not to add to or take away from the words of prophecy (Revelation 22:18–19). It’s not about being clever with symbols, it’s about submitting to the Word as it stands. If we don’t believe the clear parts, we’ll twist the rest too. The two witnesses are not symbolic of the Law and the Prophets, they are two real prophets who will appear in the end times, just like the Bible says.

True, let scripture interpret scripture but scripture is also a message and that message from Jesus in this parable is "no" that no one will come back to warn people because of the Law and the prophets.

The two witnesses perfectly symbolizes the law and the prophets. One matches Moses who stands for the Law and the other matches Elijiah who stands for the prophets. They both mirror Jesus life, the length of His ministry, being killed in Jerusalem "the great city" and rising back to life after three days.

 

[bdavidc]

True, let scripture interpret scripture but scripture is also a message and that message from Jesus in this parable is "no" that no one will come back to warn people because of the Law and the prophets.

The two witnesses perfectly symbolizes the law and the prophets. One matches Moses who stands for the Law and the other matches Elijiah who stands for the prophets. They both mirror Jesus life, the length of His ministry, being killed in Jerusalem "the great city" and rising back to life after three days.

Revelation 11 says what it says. The two witnesses are not symbols of ideas, they are two actual people God will raise up in the future. The Bible never says, "These two are the law and the prophets." That is something you're adding into the text. When God uses symbols, He explains them, like when He tells us in Revelation 1:20 that the candlesticks are churches. But in Revelation 11, He doesn’t give any symbolic meaning. Instead, He gives a timeline, actions, and real outcomes: they prophesy for 1,260 days, they are killed, their dead bodies lie in the street, the world sees them, they are raised, and they ascend to heaven. None of that fits a metaphor. The Greek word for "witnesses" is martus, real people, not symbolic offices. They are called prophets (verse 10), and they are given power to call down fire and send plagues, just like Elijah and Moses literally did, because that’s what real prophets empowered by God can do. You are not letting Scripture interpret Scripture, you’re reinterpreting it through your own filter and spiritualizing away what the Bible says plainly.

 

[Marty fox]

Revelation 11 says what it says. The two witnesses are not symbols of ideas, they are two actual people God will raise up in the future. The Bible never says, "These two are the law and the prophets." That is something you're adding into the text. When God uses symbols, He explains them, like when He tells us in Revelation 1:20 that the candlesticks are churches. But in Revelation 11, He doesn’t give any symbolic meaning. Instead, He gives a timeline, actions, and real outcomes: they prophesy for 1,260 days, they are killed, their dead bodies lie in the street, the world sees them, they are raised, and they ascend to heaven. None of that fits a metaphor. The Greek word for "witnesses" is martus, real people, not symbolic offices. They are called prophets (verse 10), and they are given power to call down fire and send plagues, just like Elijah and Moses literally did, because that’s what real prophets empowered by God can do. You are not letting Scripture interpret Scripture, you’re reinterpreting it through your own filter and spiritualizing away what the Bible says plainly.

Revelation 12

1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”[a] And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

So in your view then is everything literal?

A woman is literally clothed in the sun and standing on the moon and about to give birth to a son?

Satan is a literal dragon who's tail literally sweep a third of the stars to the earth? Wouldn't one star obliterate the earth?

Would the dragon literally eat the child?

Of course not even though the text doesn't state that its all symbolic and explain what it all means we know that it is? At times the bible gives us permission to believe in symbolism and shows us elsewhere in scripture what the symbolism is. Re Genisis 37:9-11

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 11 says what it says. The two witnesses are not symbols of ideas, they are two actual people God will raise up in the future. The Bible never says, "These two are the law and the prophets." That is something you're adding into the text. When God uses symbols, He explains them, like when He tells us in Revelation 1:20 that the candlesticks are churches. But in Revelation 11, He doesn’t give any symbolic meaning. Instead, He gives a timeline, actions, and real outcomes: they prophesy for 1,260 days, they are killed, their dead bodies lie in the street, the world sees them, they are raised, and they ascend to heaven. None of that fits a metaphor. The Greek word for "witnesses" is martus, real people, not symbolic offices. They are called prophets (verse 10), and they are given power to call down fire and send plagues, just like Elijah and Moses literally did, because that’s what real prophets empowered by God can do. You are not letting Scripture interpret Scripture, you’re reinterpreting it through your own filter and spiritualizing away what the Bible says plainly.

The candlesticks are not explicitly explained as being two churches in Revelation 11 because it was already indicated what candlesticks represent in the book of Revelation back in Revelation 1:20. Why would that need to be spelled out again in Revelation 11 when it was already shown what candlesticks symbolically represent in Revelation 1:20? There was no need for that. Your approach is ridiculous. You are the one not interpreting scripture with scripture here. No one is spiritualizing anything away. You are not allowing scripture to define its terms for you.

 

[bdavidc]

Revelation 12

1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”[a] And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

So in your view then is everything literal?

A woman is literally clothed in the sun and standing on the moon and about to give birth to a son?

Satan is a literal dragon who's tail literally sweep a third of the stars to the earth? Wouldn't one star obliterate the earth?

Would the dragon literally eat the child?

Of course not even though the text doesn't state that its all symbolic and explain what it all means we know that it is? At times the bible gives us permission to believe in symbolism and shows us elsewhere in scripture what the symbolism is. Re Genisis 37:9-11

You’re putting words in my mouth that I never said, and misrepresenting the conversation entirely. I never claimed Revelation 12 should be taken 100% literally without recognizing symbolic language. What I stand on is what the Bible actually says, not assumptions and man-made conclusions added on top of the text.

Scripture does include symbols, yes. But God also interprets His own symbols through the rest of His Word. Genesis 37:9–11 shows how the sun, moon, and stars symbolized Jacob, Rachel, and the twelve tribes. That interpretation came from Scripture, not speculation. That’s the key difference. Letting God interpret His Word through His Word, not inserting our own theories to make a passage say something it doesn’t.

If we start redefining everything based on our own imagination instead of sticking with what God actually says and shows in Scripture, we end up replacing truth with confusion. That’s not discernment, it’s self-deception.

Titus 1:13 says, “Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith.” I’m not here to argue endlessly. If you actually want to look at what Scripture teaches, I’m ready. But if you’d rather twist verses to fit your viewpoint, then I’m done. God’s Word is clear for those who want the truth. You’ve made it obvious you don’t.

 

[Marilyn C]

The candlesticks are not explicitly explained as being two churches in Revelation 11 because it was already indicated what candlesticks represent in the book of Revelation back in Revelation 1:20. Why would that need to be spelled out again in Revelation 11 when it was already shown what candlesticks symbolically represent in Revelation 1:20? There was no need for that. Your approach is ridiculous. You are the one not interpreting scripture with scripture here. No one is spiritualizing anything away. You are not allowing scripture to define its terms for you.

So, the symbol of a lamb in Rev. 5: 5 is the same as the symbol of the lamb in Rev. 13: 11?

 

[TribulationSigns]

You are twisting Revelation 11 into a symbolic allegory that flatly contradicts what the text actually says. That’s not discernment, that’s deception. You are doing exactly what Peter warned about, wresting the Scriptures to your own destruction (2 Peter 3:16).

Romans 11:17

• "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;"

Clearly God is using a wild olive tree to symbolize the Gentile nations, and the natural Olive Tree to symbolize the representation of Covenant Israel into which believers are grafted. i.e., we join with Paul and the Apostles into Christ, the true Israel of God (Ephesians 2:11-19) which this Covenant tree merely represents. This is the New Covenant Church, and it is symbolized by the olive tree having Gentiles grafted into it that they become heirs (right along with the Jews) according to the promises to Israel. And so once again we see the Word of God showing just who the olive tree represents. All those Gentiles coming into this Jewish olive tree are the believers coming into the New Covenant Congregation. Those branches of the tree broken off are those of Israel who come under judgment and are blinded. The Jewish brethren who are Saved are the branches in this same tree right along with us. So we see Jewish people and Gentiles, all in the exact same olive tree of Salvation.

Likewise in Zechariah chapter four, the symbolism of two olive trees and the candlestick (lampstand) are signifying the Church.

Zechariah 4:2-6

• "And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
• And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
• So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
• Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
• Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts."

The Lampstands and olive tress stand before God, not by their own power or by their own might, but by the Holy Spirit of the Lord. This again illustrating what we've been seeing of the two Witnesses. It is not by any power we have inherently, but because of the power of the Holy Spirit of God given to us that we witness or have the testimony of Christ. Not by our own oil, but by the pure oil of the Olive tree. Not by our own light, but by the light of the candle. The two olive trees symbolize the anointed ones that stand by the Lord of the whole earth (Zechariah 4:14), not by their own power, but by power of God. This symbolizes the Church, anointed by the Spirit of God. Just as we read that the two Witnesses of Revelation also stand by the Lord of the earth.

Zechariah 4:14

• "Then said he, These are the two anointed ones that stand by the Lord of the whole earth."

The same thing Revelation chapter eleven says of the two candlestick/olive trees there. They stand before the God of the earth. They are the anointed ones, meaning they are those who are anointed by the Holy Spirit, by being in Christ. The oil for the light is not theirs, it is that given them.

1st John 2:27

• "But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."

So we have seen from God's Word that the Witnesses represent the Church, the Candlesticks represent the Church, and the Olive Tree represents the Church, and that they are the anointed ones who stand before the God of the earth. All roads are leading to the same inescapable conclusion. This imagery represents the Church. PERIOD! Not two individuals.
The final identifying factor is that these two witnesses are also called the two Prophets (verse 10). Who are the Prophets of God today? Not in the Old Testament, but who are the New Testament Prophets? Again, clearly, those of the Church are the only Holy prophets of God today.

1st Corinthians 12:28

• "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healing, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."

Ever since the Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost, the Lord's servants of the New Covenant Church go forth prophesying (Acts 2:17). Whenever the Church declares the Word that the future holds everlasting life for the servants of God, an inheritance from above, and it holds judgment for those who do not believe, they are prophesying. Whenever they prophecy Jesus will someday return on the clouds of Glory to rapture the Church and wipe away all tears, they are prophesying God's Word. To prophesy in the broad sense means to be a messenger of God to declare His Word, or be a 'mouth piece.' In certain senses it means to declare God's Word by foretelling what God has in store in the future. And that is exactly what the Church does in it's testimony. It prophesies of God's Word of deliverance, judgment, inheritance, and Christ's coming.
It is true that there is the particular 'office' of a prophet in the Church, but in the general sense, all believers are prophets in that they are messengers to deliver God's Word. All through the Scripture God calls those of the Church His prophets.

This is implied also in God's warning us to 'beware of false prophets,' as opposed to true prophets (those with His testimony). SEE?! In one sense all true Christians today are prophets of God, declaring what shall be.

Joel 2:28

• "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:"

Acts 2:16-18

• "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
• And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
• And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:"

We are made prophets able to declare God's Word by the anointing of the Holy Spirit poured out at Pentecost. This was the fulfillment of that which was prophesied in Joel. That which was a mystery before, was made known. That the Gentiles in the New Testament Church dispensation would be prophets unto God and have truth revealed unto them. Sorry, it won't be your two individuals who will prophesy and spew fires?

By the way, do you know how Two Witnesses spew fire out of their fire? Show us in Scirpture what God actually talked about. Selah!

 

[shepherdsword]

I will give you an example. Some people insisted that the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 must be two literal men, including the idea of Moses and Elijah from the Old Testament.

Two Witnesses is the designator that what is being said is true. It signified corroborated truth, which we see all throughout Scripture. Even from the very beginning. If interpretations belong to God.

Deuteronomy 19:15

• "One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established."

God's law established that at the mouth of a "minimum" of two witnesses, the truth is established. This is why Revelation chapter 11 designates His faithful believers of the New Testament congregation as His Two Witnesses because of indwelt with the Holy Spirit. As for the two Witnesses, being two witnesses, as the faithful church is the establishment of truth that we come with the power of the Holy Spirit to preach it to the world for the past 2,000 years. They are the two witnesses of God's word whereby man may be put to death, even as God inspired it to be written (Deuteronomy 17:6).

Revelation 11:3-5

• "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
• These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
• And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

The Candlesticks spiritually represent the church. The Olive Tree spiritually represents the church. The prophets spiritually represent the church. And the two witnesses spiritually represent the church. Oh, there is God again "Spiritualizing" just like He has all throughout the Scriptures!! By Two Witnesses are the enemies of God killed. What? Know ye not that ye shall judge ἄγγελος [aggelos] messengers? (1st Corinthians 6:3-5).

This is YOUR man made interpretation based on a false comparison between Rev 11 and Deut 19. It is not an interpretation from God. Deut 19 is about legal proceedings and has nothing to to with the two witnesses of Rev 11. This is sheer cherry picking and false application that all false teachers do.

 

[TribulationSigns]

This is YOUR man made interpretation based on a false comparison between Rev 11 and Deut 19. It is not an interpretation from God. Deut 19 is about legal proceedings and has nothing to to with the two witnesses of Rev 11. This is sheer cherry picking and false application that all false teachers do.

Legal proceeding? LOL Please read again carefully:

"God's law established that at the mouth of a "minimum" of two witnesses, the truth is established. This is why Revelation chapter 11 designates His faithful believers of the New Testament congregation as His Two Witnesses because of indwelt with the Holy Spirit. As for the two Witnesses, being two witnesses, as the faithful church is the establishment of truth that we come with the power of the Holy Spirit to preach it to the world for the past 2,000 years. They are the two witnesses of God's word whereby man may be put to death, even as God inspired it to be written (Deuteronomy 17:6)."

Establishment of Truth! That is what the number 2 signifies in Scripture! The prophets of God are the Witnesses of Truth, as with all Christians, as prophets! Geez! This is how God sees His people as His Two Witnesses as such! Don't like it... too bad! It is God's Word.

 

[shepherdsword]

Legal proceeding? LOL So??

Read the entire chapter. The context is false accusations and what it takes for true witness testimony. It's a legal issue. I can see that goes over your head. No wonder you fail at eschatology. It's nothing to laugh about.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Read the entire chapter. The context is false accessions and what it takes for true witness testimony. It's a legal issue. I can see that goes over your head. No wonder you fail at eschatology. It's nothing to laugh about.

I can assure you that my eschatology is FINE and doing GREAT despite the naysayers who do not like to hear the truth.

 

[Marilyn C]

Romans 11:17

• "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;"

Clearly God is using a wild olive tree to symbolize the Gentile nations, and the natural Olive Tree to symbolize the representation of Covenant Israel into which believers are grafted. i.e., we join with Paul and the Apostles into Christ, the true Israel of God (Ephesians 2:11-19) which this Covenant tree merely represents.

Hi TS,

You may like to consider this - Christ is the Olive tree.

`For if the first-fruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.` (Rom. 16 - 18)

You see only Christ is holy, gives nourishment (fatness) and supports us. Israel cannot do that for us. We are grafted into CHRIST.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Hi TS,

You may like to consider this - Christ is the Olive tree.

`For if the first-fruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.` (Rom. 16 - 18)

You see only Christ is holy, gives nourishment (fatness) and supports us. Israel cannot do that for us. We are grafted into CHRIST.

Christ is covenant Israel that we are in.

Selah.

 

[Zao is life]

Let the text say what it says. Believe what is written, not what isn’t.

Which is not what your interpretation of the text is doing. Your definition of the two witnesses takes away from scripture by deleting verse 4:

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

It's not the person who reads Revelation 11:4 who combines two different symbols, it's the text,

so we can ignore verse 4 and the two menorah, and concentrate only on the olive trees (as your argument does), OR we can combine the two (as the text does) and equally legitimately believe that the two witnesses are two churches prophesying to the world, if it's compared with Zechariah Chapter 4 and other parts of the Revelation.

There aren't going to be olive trees and menorah flying around prophesying. Everyone understands that it's referring to real people.

Zechariah Chapter 4 is all about the reconstruction of God's house, as well as about Joshua and Zerubbabel. After Zechariah asks what the two OLIVE TREES signify (Zechariah 4:11), he is told that they signify "the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth".

"These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth." (Revelation 11:4).

But Zechariah 4:9 &10 link the seven lamps of the menorah mentioned in Zechariah 4:2-3 to "the seven eyes of the LORD which run to and fro through the whole earth", which are also linked in this way in the Revelation - to the seven Spirits before the throne of God, the seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, and the seven eyes of the LORD sent forth into all the earth (Revelation 1:4; 4:5; 5:6).

In other words, if the two candlesticks that stand before the God of the earth are (represent) the two witnesses, then they could be referring to churches (God's house) - and there were only two out of the seven churches in the Revelation who were commended for their faithfulness and endurance without receiving any rebuke. It could also refer to two individual prophets and two churches.

It could also be referring to two individual prophets only - but you have not even hinted at why you believe the text of Revelation 11:4 itself combines the two symbols. So your argument is not very convincing, because you do not let the text of Revelation 11:4 say what it says, and ignore the symbols that explain who the two witnesses are.​

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So, the symbol of a lamb in Rev. 5: 5 is the same as the symbol of the lamb in Rev. 13: 11?

That is not a valid comparison at all. The reference to two candlesticks in Revelation 11 is not a reference to something evil pretending to be two candlesticks. It says the two witnesses ARE two candlesticks. There is no symbol of a lamb in Revelation 13:11. There is a symbol of a beast with two horns like a lamb's horns that speaks like a dragon. That is not comparable to the Lamb referenced in Revelation 5:5. Revelation 13:11 is not a description of a lamb, but rather the description of an evil beast pretending to be like a lamb but who speaks like a dragon. The only way your comparison would be valid was if the second beast could actually be called the Lamb rather than only pretending to be a lamb.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Hi TS,

You may like to consider this - Christ is the Olive tree.

`For if the first-fruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches. But if you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.` (Rom. 16 - 18)

You see only Christ is holy, gives nourishment (fatness) and supports us. Israel cannot do that for us. We are grafted into CHRIST.

Christ is the root of the olive tree. The olive tree represents the church, the congregation of God's people. Notice how both Jew and Gentile believers are grafted into the cultivated olive tree and no one else is. Unbelievers are cut off. That is a description of the church. Similar to how the church is described as a building, "a holy temple in the Lord" in Ephesians 2:19-22 with Jew and Gentile believers together as "members of his household" with Jesus as its cornerstone. He is the root and cornerstone of the church.

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Romans 15:12 And again, Isaiah says, “The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; in him the Gentiles will hope.” (Isaiah 11:10)

Revelation 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.