God Interprets His Scripture

[Rockerduck]

The two witnesses are of Christ's work on the Cross and have been place for 2000 yrs. It has to be the church, and Holy spirit. We are in the end times now and this is past.

 

[bdavidc]

you have not even hinted at why you believe the text of Revelation 11:4 itself combines the two symbols.

Actually, I did say why Revelation 11:4 combines the two symbols, because the text literally says it does. You're acting like this is my opinion, but look at the verse:

"These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth." (Revelation 11:4)

That is the combination. I didn’t create it, I just read it. The text doesn't leave it up for debate, it directly identifies the two witnesses using both symbols together: olive trees and candlesticks. That’s not something I’m forcing into the passage, that’s what the passage actually says.

So to accuse me of “not even hinting” at why I believe the text combines the two is false, I believe it because the Bible says it. Period. If you're ignoring that plain reading and trying to reshape it to fit a theory, then you're not letting Scripture speak, you're rewriting it.

You're blending:

• The two olive trees from Zechariah (representing two anointed men)
• The seven lamps from Zechariah 4:2 (connected to the Spirit of God, not churches)
• The seven Spirits of God from Revelation (which are never said to be churches)
• And the candlesticks of Revelation 1 (defined as local churches in Asia)

Then you try to link the two witnesses to two churches out of the seven based on their faithfulness, but this is purely speculative. Nowhere in Scripture does it say that Smyrna and Philadelphia are the two witnesses. That’s your guess.

Your overall interpretation is not Sola Scriptura. It blends man-made reasoning with loosely connected symbols. If we let the Bible interpret itself and stick to what it actually says, the two witnesses are best understood as two real, prophetic individuals empowered by God in the last days, not as symbolic representations of churches.

We are called to be students of the Word, not careless with it. So while your salvation doesn’t hinge on interpreting Revelation 11 perfectly, your faithfulness does.

Getting it wrong may not send you to hell, but if you teach speculative ideas as if they are biblical truth, you are accountable (James 3:1). That’s why we test everything by the Word alone.

 

[Zao is life]

Actually, I did say why Revelation 11:4 combines the two symbols, because the text literally says it does. You're acting like this is my opinion, but look at the verse:

"These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth." (Revelation 11:4)

That is the combination. I didn’t create it, I just read it.

That's what I said, but I asked you to explain why they are described like that, and you have side-stepped.

The text doesn't leave it up for debate, it directly identifies the two witnesses using both symbols together: olive trees and candlesticks.

But you cannot explain why.

That’s not something I’m forcing into the passage, that’s what the passage actually says.

That's exactly what I said. But you ignore the fact that there is a reason why two witnesses are symbolized as two olive trees and two menorahs.

You cannot explain the reason why they are symbolized in that way, or what the text is meant to tell us.

You just side-step it in your interpretation.

So to accuse me of “not even hinting” at why I believe the text combines the two is false, I believe it because the Bible says it. Period. If you're ignoring that plain reading and trying to reshape it to fit a theory, then you're not letting Scripture speak, you're rewriting it.

But you're ignoring it because you simply say who the two witnesses are without any reference to the two things that symbolize them.

By your own words, you're not letting scripture speak for itself, because you are ignoring what the symbols of two olive trees and two menorahs imply regarding the identity of the two witnesses, not even trying to offer an explanation.

You're blending:

• The two olive trees from Zechariah (representing two anointed men)
• The seven lamps from Zechariah 4:2 (connected to the Spirit of God, not churches)
• The seven Spirits of God from Revelation (which are never said to be churches)
• And the candlesticks of Revelation 1 (defined as local churches in Asia)

Then you try to link the two witnesses to two churches out of the seven based on their faithfulness, but this is purely speculative.

Nice try but I have not guessed anything. You have. I have not once stated what or who the two witnesses are. I've simply compared scripture with scripture and given three possibilities of what Revelation 11:4 might signify as to the identity of the two witnesses, without ignoring the text in Revelation 11:4.

But you are ignoring the text in Revelation 11:4, and without saying how the two olive trees and two menorah's represent two individuals rather than many individuals, simply continue to assert that they do.

Nowhere in Scripture does it say that Smyrna and Philadelphia are the two witnesses. That’s your guess.

Your overall interpretation is not Sola Scriptura. It blends man-made reasoning with loosely connected symbols.

Those symbols are not loosely-connected by Revelation 11:4, except by your ignorance of scripture (the symbols in Revelation 11:4) and jumping to conclusions which result in your assertion about the two witnesses being two individuals.

If we let the Bible interpret itself and stick to what it actually says

Again, it's not what you are doing - which shows in the fact that while I haven't asserted AN identity of the two witnesses but merely given three possibilities of what the olive trees and menorahs represent in Revelation 11:4, you have given AN identity to the two witnesses - even while offering no scriptural explanation of what those symbols may represent, while you ignore the verse.

We are called to be students of the Word, not careless with it.

Then you ought not to be so careless with the Word.

So while your salvation doesn’t hinge on interpreting Revelation 11 perfectly, your faithfulness does.

You're very faithful to your own interpretation of the identity of the two witnesses derived from ignorance of the meaning of the symbols of two olive trees and two menorah and what they tell us about the identity of the two witnesses.

I really don't understand why you believe that pointing fingers like the above somehow supports your own interpretation which you derived from ignoring Revelation 11:4 and what the two olive trees and two menorahs might signify as regards the identity of the two witnesses.

Getting it wrong may not send you to hell, but if you teach speculative ideas as if they are biblical truth, you are accountable (James 3:1). That’s why we test everything by the Word alone.

You have speculated regarding how many individuals the two witnesses may be (derived from your ignoring of the symbols meant to tell us what their identity is), become convinced of your own speculation, and now you place the above type of warning upon yourself by thinking you're warning others.

You still have not given any explanation of what (in your opinion) the two olive trees and two menorahs might signify as regards the identity of the two witnesses, and why those symbols meant to tell us what their identity is, is referring to only two individuals.

By now I'm losing hope that you can, or will even try after prayerfully asking of God to give you the understanding instead of dogmatically declaring you have the understanding and why everyone else who may not agree with you is wrong, and does not have a deep appreciation of the holiness of scripture (being inspired as it is, by God).

 

[Zao is life]

@bdavidc

IF the two witnesses are two individuals, then leaving Revelation 11:4 out of the text makes absolutely no difference and does not change its meaning in any way:-

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

But John was inspired by Christ who was giving John the Revelation, to include the following:

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

The above tells us that:

(A) we should identify the two witnesses in terms of their symbolic representations by two olive trees and two candlesticks; and

(B) that we should not assume that the two witnesses are referring to two individuals.

Anyone who is cautious enough when reading scripture would spot this - and it should cause each person to compare scripture with scripture after prayerfully asking God to give him the understanding - in order to at least try and ascertain what is meant by the symbols of two olive trees and two lampstands - before just "declaring" the two witnesses to be two individuals.

Failing to do so is a matter of privately interpreting scripture, because Revelation 11:4 appears to allude to Zechariah 4:14's "two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth."

Zechariah Chapter 4 is all about the building of God's Temple, and Zerubbabel is a type of Christ who builds His churches "Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit". (Zechariah 4:6, which we can safely assume means not by HUMAN might or power).

Zechariah Chapter 4 links the two olive trees to:

(i) THE SEVEN LAMPS of the lampstand (Zechariah 4:2-3 & 12-14); and to:
(ii) "THE SEVEN EYES OF THE LORD, WHICH RUN TO AND FRO THROUGH THE WHOLE EARTH" (Zechariah 4:10); and this appears to be alluded to in Revelation 5:6:
(iii) THE SEVEN EYES OF THE LAMB; which are linked in the same verse to:
(iv) "THE SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD SENT FORTH INTO ALL THE EARTH (Revelation 5:6), which are linked to:
(v) The "SEVEN LAMPS of fire BURNING BEFORE THE THRONE, WHICH ARE THE SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD" (Revelation 4:5).

But you pretend that Revelation 11:4 makes no difference to the interpretation of the identity of the two witnesses, without giving any suggestion whatsoever of why the verse is included in the passage, or what the two olive trees and two lampstands could possibly signify regarding their identity.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.​

 

[bdavidc]

Those symbols are not loosely-connected by Revelation 11:4, except by your ignorance of scripture (the symbols in Revelation 11:4) and jumping to conclusions which result in your assertion about the two witnesses being two individuals.

I’m going to end the conversation here. You’ve made it clear that you’re more interested in defending your own theory than submitting to what the Bible actually says. When someone resorts to name-calling instead of rightly handling the Word of God, it shows they’re not interested in truth. The text clearly describes two real prophets, not abstract symbols or speculative ideas. If you won’t let Scripture speak for itself, there’s no point in continuing. I’ll stand on what is written. You’re free to believe otherwise, but I won’t argue about it further.

 

[bdavidc]

By the way, do you know how Two Witnesses spew fire out of their fire? Show us in Scirpture what God actually talked about. Selah!

Yes, I know exactly what Scripture says about the two witnesses “spewing fire,” and so should you if you're going to quote it. Revelation 11:5 says, “And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies, and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.” That’s not symbolic, and it’s not a metaphor, it’s exactly what the text says. God doesn't need your imagination to soften it. Just like Elijah called down literal fire from heaven (2 Kings 1:10–12), these two prophets are given divine power to issue fire from their mouths as judgment. You mock it with the word “spew” like it's absurd, but you’re mocking the Word of God. The passage says what it says, fire comes out of their mouths, and people die. If that bothers you, the problem isn’t the text, it’s your unwillingness to accept what’s written.

The issue here is not the presence of symbols in Scripture, but how you're handling them. You're interpreting symbols through speculation instead of letting the Word of God define them. Revelation 11 calls these two witnesses prophets, not once, but directly in verse 10, and yet you bypass that clear designation to redefine them as symbolic representations of the Church. But nowhere in Revelation 11 does the Bible say the witnesses are a congregation or collective body. The passage outlines a sequence of events, prophesying, being killed, lying dead for three and a half days, being raised to life, and ascending to heaven in the sight of their enemies. There is no biblical precedent for applying that series of events to the Church. As for your reference to the anointing of believers, yes, all Christians have the Holy Spirit, but the Bible never equates being anointed with holding the prophetic office described in Revelation 11. Being filled with the Spirit does not mean every believer becomes one of the two witnesses. Your conclusion relies on a chain of symbolic connections the Bible itself never makes. If you believe the Church is the two witnesses, then show that directly from the text, not through layered assumptions and broad metaphors, but by rightly dividing the Word as it is written.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Yes, I know exactly what Scripture says about the two witnesses “spewing fire,” and so should you if you're going to quote it. Revelation 11:5 says, “And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies, and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.” That’s not symbolic, and it’s not a metaphor, it’s exactly what the text says. God doesn't need your imagination to soften it.

LOL!!! You need to learn to compare Scripture with Scripture. God doesn't need my imagination. He already explained his interpreation that I testified! Haven't you read Scrpture?

Jer 5:14
(14) Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

Do you understand what God said here? Indeed, God's ministers are a flame of fire. These believers coming with fire from their mouths are the two witnesses representing the faithful of the church who are bringing the gospel, which is as a flame of fire, toward the rebellious house of God. For it is written, judgment must begin there first!

When will you ever learn? You need to stop going to the circus, where you may find people spew fire from their mouths for entertainment.

 

[Marty fox]

Food for thought a post on the two witnesses I did a few years ago

I believe the two witnesses to be symbolic of the prophets and the law which point to Jesus. Why does God call them the two witnesses? Why the term witness? That means that they had to witness something. Is it because they witnesses and pointed to Jesus?

It took two witnesses to witness a testimony and two witnesses to witness a crime. Could the testimony be about who Jesus is and the crime be what Israel was guilty of?

Mosses represents the law and like the witnesses turned water into blood and struck the earth with all types of plagues. Elijah represents the prophets and like the witnesses he could shut the sky up so that it couldn’t rain and had fire devour his enemies. These two are the two olive trees and are also the two golden lamp stands the two anointed ones that stand before the lord. This is referred to in Zechariah chapter 4 and Jesus is also the anointed one.

Could the fire out of there mouths be the word that has power to condemn and convict. They are also dressed in sackcloth which represents repentance. Jews reading this would understand the meanings.

They mirror Jesus’ life as they also have a 3 ½ year ministry and can’t be killed until there time has come. They are killed by the beast (which I believe is a demon behind the power of Rome) and Rome also killed Jesus. They are killed in Jerusalem just like Jesus was. They are also dead for 3 ½ days like Jesus was and they are raised back to life and go up to heaven. Both Jesus and the two witnesses had earthquakes around the time of there death and there was also an earthquake when Jesus rose back to life.

Why is it 7000 people that died in the earthquake? Why the number 7000? Is it because 7 is the number of completeness and perfection to God and 1000 means many. It also says in Revelation 11:13 that people gave glory to God after the earthquake just like some people realized that Jesus was the son of God after the earthquake when Jesus died.

Why is Jerusalem also called Sodom and Egypt in Revelation 11:8. Because Sodom represents the morality of Jerusalem and Egypt represents the oppression of Jerusalem.

These two witnesses torment people with the word as there words torment and convicts people just like Jesus words did. The Pharisees were happy when Jesus died because he exposed them for who they were and they may of even gave gifts to one another when they celebrated His death.

Revelation is the unveiling of Jesus and these two witnesses help to reveal to us who Jesus is.

 

[Zao is life]

I’m going to end the conversation here. You’ve made it clear that you’re more interested in defending your own theory than submitting to what the Bible actually says. When someone resorts to name-calling instead of rightly handling the Word of God, it shows they’re not interested in truth. The text clearly describes two real prophets, not abstract symbols or speculative ideas. If you won’t let Scripture speak for itself, there’s no point in continuing. I’ll stand on what is written. You’re free to believe otherwise, but I won’t argue about it further.

Like I thought you cannot address Revelation 11:4 and what it says about the identity of the two witnesses, and so you will simply continue to avoid it. This time with ending the conversation with a false accusation about "name-calling" when it is only you who implies that the one who disagrees with your hasty conclusion regarding the two witnesses is somehow fighting against God and the scriptures.​

 

[Zao is life]

Food for thought a post on the two witnesses I did a few years ago

I believe the two witnesses to be symbolic of the prophets and the law which point to Jesus. Why does God call them the two witnesses? Why the term witness? That means that they had to witness something. Is it because they witnesses and pointed to Jesus?

It took two witnesses to witness a testimony and two witnesses to witness a crime. Could the testimony be about who Jesus is and the crime be what Israel was guilty of?

Mosses represents the law and like the witnesses turned water into blood and struck the earth with all types of plagues. Elijah represents the prophets and like the witnesses he could shut the sky up so that it couldn’t rain and had fire devour his enemies. These two are the two olive trees and are also the two golden lamp stands the two anointed ones that stand before the lord. This is referred to in Zechariah chapter 4 and Jesus is also the anointed one.

Could the fire out of there mouths be the word that has power to condemn and convict. They are also dressed in sackcloth which represents repentance. Jews reading this would understand the meanings.

They mirror Jesus’ life as they also have a 3 ½ year ministry and can’t be killed until there time has come. They are killed by the beast (which I believe is a demon behind the power of Rome) and Rome also killed Jesus. They are killed in Jerusalem just like Jesus was. They are also dead for 3 ½ days like Jesus was and they are raised back to life and go up to heaven. Both Jesus and the two witnesses had earthquakes around the time of there death and there was also an earthquake when Jesus rose back to life.

Why is it 7000 people that died in the earthquake? Why the number 7000? Is it because 7 is the number of completeness and perfection to God and 1000 means many. It also says in Revelation 11:13 that people gave glory to God after the earthquake just like some people realized that Jesus was the son of God after the earthquake when Jesus died.

Why is Jerusalem also called Sodom and Egypt in Revelation 11:8. Because Sodom represents the morality of Jerusalem and Egypt represents the oppression of Jerusalem.

These two witnesses torment people with the word as there words torment and convicts people just like Jesus words did. The Pharisees were happy when Jesus died because he exposed them for who they were and they may of even gave gifts to one another when they celebrated His death.

Revelation is the unveiling of Jesus and these two witnesses help to reveal to us who Jesus is.

The law and the prophets pointed to the first coming of the Messiah. The law and prophets were not killed nor did they rise from the dead in the first century. The two witnesses will be killed and will rise from the dead which indicates the return of Jesus.

Sodom indicates moral depravity and Egypt, bondage. IMO it's the bondage to the law of sin and death being symbolized which Paul had in mind when he made the comparison between Hagar and Sarah with the former indicating bondage and the Jerusalem which existed when he wrote (and still exists); and the latter indicating the city of the saints who have been freed from bondage to the law of sin and death.

Galatians 4
21 Tell me, those desiring to be under Law, do you not hear the Law?
22 For it is written: Abraham had two sons, the one out of the slave-woman, and one out of the free woman.
23 But, indeed, he out of the slave-woman has been born according to flesh, and he out of the free woman through the promise;
24 which things are being allegorized; for these are the two covenants, one indeed from Mount Sinai bringing forth to slavery, which is Hagar.
25 For Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in slavery with her children.
26 But the Jerusalem from above is free, who is the mother of us all.​

 

[ewq1938]

The two witnesses will be killed and will rise from the dead which indicates the return of Jesus.
​

That's the two prophets who are the two olive trees, half of what the two witnesses are according to Rev 11.

 

[ewq1938]

Instead of trying to identify "the two witnesses", I find it more important to accurately understand what the "two witnesses" are, and ARE NOT.



Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, AND the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


"the two olive trees" AND "the two candlesticks"


As you see, the "two witnesses" are two of one thing and two of another.




------------------one witness------------second witness------------
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


We have 4 altogether that compose the "two witnesses".

So what are olive trees?


Zechariah 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?


"What are these two olive trees"


Zechariah 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
Zechariah 4:13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
Zechariah 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.


"These are the two anointed ones"


And olive trees represent anointed people. So, the two olive trees that form ONE WITNESS are two individuals that have been anointed.


Zechariah 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.


Two anointed ones. To be anointed simply means to be blessed with the gifts of the Holy spirit, especially with knowledge which includes knowledge of the future known as prophecy. "ones" means individuals, there are two individuals being spoken of.

ones:

1121

01121 ben {bane}

from 01129; TWOT - 254; n m

AV - son 2978, children 1568, old 135, first 51, man 20, young 18,
young + 01241 17, child 10, stranger 10, people 5, misc 92; 4906

1) son, grandson, child, member of a group
1a) son, male child
1b) grandson
1c) children (pl. - male and female)
1d) youth, young men (pl.)
1e) young (of animals)
1f) sons (as characterisation, ie sons of injustice [for un-
righteous men] or sons of God [for angels]
1g) people (of a nation) (pl.)
1h) of lifeless things, ie sparks, stars, arrows (fig.)
1i) a member of a guild, order, class

----------------one witness--------------second witness------------
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


What are the two candlesticks?

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.


"and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches"


Candlesticks represent churches which are groups of Christians.







Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, AND the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.



There are two witnesses because that's what Revelation 11 tells us but that also does not mean the two witnesses are just two people. Scripture says the two witnesses are two candlesticks AND two olive trees. Candlesticks are churches and that's an unknown amount of people, and two olive trees is two anointed prophets which is actually two people but the two churches are much more people. The two olive trees feed olive oil to the candlesticks/churches so their spiritual flame can light their path. Same concept in the parable of the 10 virgins.


Zec 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
Zec 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?


so to add what we know:


Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Revelation 11:4 These are the two [anointed ones], AND the two [churches] standing before the God of the earth.

According to scripture, the two witnesses are two churches (candlesticks) AND two persons (olive trees). One witness is the two churches, the other witness is the two persons. Many believe it is Elijah and Enoch but who they are or aren't is another discussion.




When scripture refers to the two "olive trees" and we learn that olive trees represent "anointed ones" then we know these two olive trees are in fact two "anointed ones" which is simply two anointed people or persons...but there's more:


Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


Here only the two olive trees are called the two prophets. Prophets are individuals, in fact they are males. Two male prophets which are anointed by God to give prophetic messages.


Since its also scriptural fact that candlesticks are churches we then have this:


Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees [the two anointed prophets], and the two candlesticks [two churches] standing before the God of the earth.


Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


If you wish to speak of the two prophets which are killed by the antichrist/beast and are raised back to life by God, it is incorrect to refer to them as the "two witnesses" since the scriptures do not. They are referred to as one of the two witnesses, the two olive trees which are two anointed individuals ie: the two prophets.

 

[Zao is life]

That's the two prophets who are the two olive trees, half of what the two witnesses are according to Rev 11.

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Anyway you can't divide the one from the other like that because you are inserting that division into the text, and the text does not even imply it.

Or should I say that though you can convince yourself with that division, you can't convince me.

Revelation 11
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

 

[ewq1938]

Anyway you can't divide the one from the other like that because you are inserting that division into the text, and the text does not even imply it.

Or should I say that though you can convince yourself with that division, you can't convince me.

I already know that.

Revelation 11
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Just read the passage you posted. The "division" is right there. The olive trees are individuals and so are the two prophets so that's a match. The candlesticks are churches as per what Rev says in an earlier chp.

 

[Zao is life]

LOL!!! You need to learn to compare Scripture with Scripture. God doesn't need my imagination. He already explained his interpreation that I testified! Haven't you read Scrpture?

Jer 5:14
(14) Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

Do you understand what God said here? Indeed, God's ministers are a flame of fire. These believers coming with fire from their mouths are the two witnesses representing the faithful of the church who are bringing the gospel, which is as a flame of fire, toward the rebellious house of God. For it is written, judgment must begin there first!

When will you ever learn? You need to stop going to the circus, where you may find people spew fire from their mouths for entertainment.

It's not surprising @bdavidc cannot find the meaning of metaphor in the scriptures. He refuses to even acknowledge the presence of the identification of the two witnesses in Revelation 11:4, let alone consider what the two olive trees and two lamp-stands mentioned there signify about their identity.

Yes, I know exactly what Scripture says about the two witnesses “spewing fire,” and so should you if you're going to quote it. Revelation 11:5 says, “And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies, and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.” That’s not symbolic, and it’s not a metaphor, it’s exactly what the text says. God doesn't need your imagination to soften it. Just like Elijah called down literal fire from heaven (2 Kings 1:10–12), these two prophets are given divine power to issue fire from their mouths as judgment. You mock it with the word “spew” like it's absurd, but you’re mocking the Word of God. The passage says what it says, fire comes out of their mouths, and people die. If that bothers you, the problem isn’t the text, it’s your unwillingness to accept what’s written.

 

[Zao is life]

Just read the passage you posted. The "division" is right there. The olive trees are individuals and so are the two prophets so that's a match. The candlesticks are churches as per what Rev says in an earlier chp.

That's only IF In Zechariah the olive trees represent people rather than the oil being provided to the lamps. If they represent the oil being provided to the lamps then it's the Holy Spirit being represented. Jesus is the one who gives power to His two witnesses.

Zechariah 4
3 There are also two olive trees beside it, one on the right of the receptacle and the other on the left."
4 Then I asked the messenger who spoke with me, "What are these, sir?"
5 He replied, "Don't you know what these are?" So I responded, "No, sir."
6 Therefore he told me, "These signify the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: 'Not by strength and not by power, but by my Spirit,' says the LORD who rules over all."

In fact the above proves your belief about the two olive trees representing two people to be false, and therefore your dichotomy of the symbols in Revelation 11:4 to also be false.​

 

[ewq1938]

That's only IF In Zechariah the olive trees represent people rather than the oil being provided to the lamps. If they represent the oil being provided to the lamps then it's the Holy Spirit being represented. Jesus is the one who gives power to His two witnesses.

Zechariah 4
3 There are also two olive trees beside it, one on the right of the receptacle and the other on the left."
4 Then I asked the messenger who spoke with me, "What are these, sir?"
5 He replied, "Don't you know what these are?" So I responded, "No, sir."
6 Therefore he told me, "These signify the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: 'Not by strength and not by power, but by my Spirit,' says the LORD who rules over all."

In fact the above proves your belief about the two olive trees representing two people to be false, and therefore your dichotomy of the symbols in Revelation 11:4 to also be false.​

You don't even have the right part of the passage. How could you possibly be right? You can't. You can't understand something when you don't even have the right part of the chp. This is an amateur mistake on your part.

Zec 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
Zec 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
Zec 4:13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
Zec 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

 

[Zao is life]

You don't even have the right part of the passage. How could you possibly be right? You can't. You can't understand something when you don't even have the right part of the chp. This is an amateur mistake on your part.

Zec 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
Zec 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
Zec 4:13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
Zec 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

The Hebrew of Zechariah 4:14 reads, "These are the sons of oil that stand before the Lord of the whole earth". The Hebrew word for 'anointed' in Zech 4:14 is the word that is always referring to the oil in all other Old Testament passages and verses which use the same word.

Zechariah 3:8-9 tells us that the two olive trees in Zechariah 4 represent Joshua the High Priest and Zerubabbel the magistrate / king of Israel, and BOTH are types of Christ, who gives power to His two witnesses in Revelation 11:3:

Zechariah 3
8 Listen now, Joshua the high priest, both you and your colleagues who are sitting before you, all of you are a symbol that I am about to introduce my servant, the Branch.
9 As for the stone I have set before Joshua - on the one stone there are seven eyes. I am about to engrave an inscription on it,' says the LORD who rules over all, 'to the effect that I will remove the iniquity of this land in a single day.

Zechariah asks a question about the olive trees TWICE in the passage:

Zechariah 4
3 There are also two olive trees beside it, one on the right of the receptacle and the other on the left."
4 Then I asked the messenger who spoke with me, "What are these, sir?"
5 He replied, "Don't you know what these are?" So I responded, "No, sir."
6 Therefore he told me, "These signify the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: 'Not by strength and not by power, but by my Spirit,' says the LORD who rules over all."
7 "What are you, you great mountain? Because of Zerubbabel you will become a level plain! And he will bring forth the temple capstone with shoutings of 'Grace! Grace!' because of this."
8 Moreover, the word of the LORD came to me as follows:
9 "The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundations of this temple, and his hands will complete it." Then you will know that the LORD who rules over all has sent me to you.

Zerubabbel is a type of Christ laying the foundations of His Temple and His hands also finishing it. So is Joshua, the high priest:

11 Next I asked the messenger, "What are these two olive trees on the right and the left of the menorah?"
12 Before he could reply I asked again, "What are these two extensions of the olive trees, which are emptying out the golden oil through the two golden pipes?"
13 He replied, "Don't you know what these are?" And I said, "No, sir."
14 So he said, "These are the two sons of oil who stand by the Lord of the whole earth."

Your amateurish covering of the meaning of the passage with your own interpretation isn't helping you to see the passage clearly. Revelation 11:4 is referring to Jesus the King and High Priest by His Spirit giving power to His churches.

Notice I used the word amateur in an adjective back at you only because you chose to introduce the word about my view.

@ewq1938 Edited

 

[Zao is life]

I will give you an example. Some people insisted that the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 must be two literal men, including the idea of Moses and Elijah from the Old Testament.

Two Witnesses is the designator that what is being said is true. It signified corroborated truth, which we see all throughout Scripture. Even from the very beginning. If interpretations belong to God.

Deuteronomy 19:15

• "One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established."

God's law established that at the mouth of a "minimum" of two witnesses, the truth is established. This is why Revelation chapter 11 designates His faithful believers of the New Testament congregation as His Two Witnesses because of indwelt with the Holy Spirit. As for the two Witnesses, being two witnesses, as the faithful church is the establishment of truth that we come with the power of the Holy Spirit to preach it to the world for the past 2,000 years. They are the two witnesses of God's word whereby man may be put to death, even as God inspired it to be written (Deuteronomy 17:6).

Revelation 11:3-5

• "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
• These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
• And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

The Candlesticks spiritually represent the church. The Olive Tree spiritually represents the church. The prophets spiritually represent the church. And the two witnesses spiritually represent the church. Oh, there is God again "Spiritualizing" just like He has all throughout the Scriptures!! By Two Witnesses are the enemies of God killed. What? Know ye not that ye shall judge ἄγγελος [aggelos] messengers? (1st Corinthians 6:3-5).

I have one disagreement on your interpretation:

Zechariah 3:8-9 tells us that in Zechariah 4 the two olive trees represent Joshua the High Priest and Zerubabbel the magistrate / king of Israel, and BOTH are types of Christ, who gives power to His two witnesses in Revelation 11:3:

Zechariah 3
8 Listen now, Joshua the high priest, both you and your colleagues who are sitting before you, all of you are a symbol that I am about to introduce my servant, the Branch.
9 As for the stone I have set before Joshua - on the one stone there are seven eyes. I am about to engrave an inscription on it,' says the LORD who rules over all, 'to the effect that I will remove the iniquity of this land in a single day.

Zechariah 4
7 "What are you, you great mountain? Because of Zerubbabel you will become a level plain! And he will bring forth the temple capstone with shoutings of 'Grace! Grace!' because of this."

Zechariah Chapter 4 is all about the building of God's Temple.

The Hebrew of Zechariah 4:14 reads, "These are the sons of oil that stand before the Lord of the whole earth" (the Hebrew word for 'anointed' in verse 14 is the word that is always referring to oil in all other Old Testament passages and verses which use the same word).

Zechariah asks a question about the olive trees TWICE in the passage:

Zechariah 4
3 There are also two olive trees beside it, one on the right of the receptacle and the other on the left."
4 Then I asked the messenger who spoke with me, "What are these, sir?"
5 He replied, "Don't you know what these are?" So I responded, "No, sir."
6 Therefore he told me, "These signify the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: 'Not by strength and not by power, but by my Spirit,' says the LORD who rules over all."
7 "What are you, you great mountain? Because of Zerubbabel you will become a level plain! And he will bring forth the temple capstone with shoutings of 'Grace! Grace!' because of this."
8 Moreover, the word of the LORD came to me as follows:
9 "The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundations of this temple, and his hands will complete it." Then you will know that the LORD who rules over all has sent me to you.

Zerubabbel is a type of Christ laying the foundations of His Temple and His hands also finishing it. So is Joshua, the high priest:

11 Next I asked the messenger, "What are these two olive trees on the right and the left of the menorah?"
12 Before he could reply I asked again, "What are these two extensions of the olive trees, which are emptying out the golden oil through the two golden pipes?"
13 He replied, "Don't you know what these are?" And I said, "No, sir."
14 So he said, "These are the two sons of oil who stand by the Lord of the whole earth."

Zechariah Chapter 4 links the two olive trees, which provide the oil, to Joshua and Zerubbabel (and hence, to Christ). He is THE CAPSTONE of the Temple in Zechariah 3:9. He provides the Holy Spirit and power to:

(i) THE SEVEN LAMPS of the lamp-stand (Zechariah 4:2-3 & 12-14); which are:

(ii) "THE SEVEN EYES OF THE LORD, WHICH RUN TO AND FRO THROUGH THE WHOLE EARTH" (Zechariah 3:9 & Zechariah 4:10); and this is alluded to in Revelation 5:6:

(iii) THE SEVEN EYES OF THE LAMB; which are linked in the same verse to:

(iv) "THE SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD SENT FORTH INTO ALL THE EARTH (Revelation 5:6), which are linked to:

(v) The "SEVEN LAMPS of fire BURNING BEFORE THE THRONE, WHICH ARE THE SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD" (Revelation 4:5).

He also provides the power to His two witnesses (Revelation 11:3).

Therefore because what is written in Zechariah Chapter 4 is also referring to God's temple whose foundation-stone is THE BRANCH, the seven churches mentioned in Revelation 1:12-13 are ALSO being symbolized as candlesticks / lamp-stands / menorahs (whatever we want to call them).

Copy @Spiritual Israelite

 

[bdavidc]

LOL!!! You need to learn to compare Scripture with Scripture. God doesn't need my imagination. He already explained his interpreation that I testified! Haven't you read Scrpture?

Jer 5:14
(14) Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

Do you understand what God said here? Indeed, God's ministers are a flame of fire. These believers coming with fire from their mouths are the two witnesses representing the faithful of the church who are bringing the gospel, which is as a flame of fire, toward the rebellious house of God. For it is written, judgment must begin there first!

When will you ever learn? You need to stop going to the circus, where you may find people spew fire from their mouths for entertainment.

You boast like you have some secret knowledge, but what you're doing is perverting God’s Word to fit your own ideas. You quote Jeremiah 5:14 completely out of context. That verse is not about believers breathing fire through the gospel, it’s about God declaring judgment on a rebellious people. He said He would make His words in the prophet’s mouth like fire, and the people like wood, because they rejected Him. That’s literal judgment, not some symbolic preaching fire. You’re not interpreting Scripture, you’re inventing nonsense.

You also rip Hebrews 1:7 from its context. That verse is about angels, not Christians. It quotes Psalm 104:4 and says, “Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.” You twist it into some allegory about church members when the text is clearly talking about created heavenly beings. That’s not revelation, that’s delusion.

And don’t lecture anyone about comparing Scripture with Scripture when you’re the one reading your own meaning into the text. 2 Peter 1:20 says no prophecy of Scripture is of private interpretation, yet that’s exactly what you’re doing, injecting your own imagination and calling it God's interpretation. Proverbs 30:6 warns, “Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.” You are walking straight into that judgment.

Revelation 11 isn’t about the church breathing out spiritual fire. It talks about two literal witnesses who prophesy, shut heaven, call down plagues, and are killed by the beast. You are perverting God's Word when you turn that into some feel-good metaphor for gospel preaching. That’s not exegesis, it’s spiritual manipulation.

You are not rightly dividing the Word of truth, you are twisting it to suit your own narrative. Galatians 1:8 says if anyone preaches another gospel, let him be accursed. That includes those who rewrite God’s truth for attention or pride. If you actually feared God, you would tremble at His Word (Isaiah 66:2), instead of using it like a prop. Repent, or stop pretending to speak for the God you refuse to obey.