God is faithful

[marks]

There is a difference between a statement and a transformation.

That being true, what I don't understand is what can be added to the transformation God gives to us?

How do you "increase" your rebirth? Make yourself "more" justified?

We are justified, and reborn, these are fully efficacious, and I don't see how they can be added to.

Much love!

 

[FollowHim]

That being true, what I don't understand is what can be added to the transformation God gives to us?

How do you "increase" your rebirth? Make yourself "more" justified?

We are justified, and reborn, these are fully efficacious, and I don't see how they can be added to.

Much love!

If one looks at the scripture, we are justified in a relationship with the expectation of following and changing. Grace is given only on the expectation of change.

The parable of the merciful servant says it all. The servant is forgiven a great debt, but takes the debtor to them and throws them in prison. The King hears and reinstates the original debt.

So we are not adding to our justification or gift we are fulfilling it. The eternal dilemma is sinful man starts flawed, but the seed sown will work over time through their whole life. In between grace makes up the difference. We could spend this grace on being lazy and ignoring God, except He warns that judgement will eventually follow.

Some argue if we stay as we are, that is all that is required. Except this testifies to the truth this believer has never met Jesus and the word has not taken root. It is not possible to know Jesus and continue in sin. Sin burns a hole in ones soul, it is a dilemma one wants to resolve and find a real solution and resolution to. Paul described this as being like an athlete. He trained himself continuously. He never paused. And Paul held himself up as an example to follow.

The wording that Peter used was "sure"

10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall,
2 Peter 1:10

4 For to be sure, he was crucified in weakness, yet he lives by God's power. Likewise, we are weak in him, yet by God's power we will live with him to serve you.
5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?
2 Cor 13:4-5

1 Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess.
Heb 3:1

5 All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.
2 Thess 1:5

10 And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God,
Col 1:10

It seems without the cleansing we have no hope to attain to the image of Jesus, because in sin we cannot commune with the Lord. Cleansed vessels can learn and know Him in a new way, yet these vessels can also defile the gift of life and the reality of Christ in them.

In truth being partial made whole is a state one does not want to stay in too long. If people carry the burden of addiction, or trauma and deep scaring, it can be a long slow road. Pilgrims progress is a story of such a walk.

When someone enters a race, they know the goal of the race and finishing, and know if they do not finish they have achieved nothing. Walking with Jesus is not different. Holding the faith, the gift to the end is the whole point, because this is about who we have become, not carrying a burden, but becoming that which He has called us to become. God bless you

 

[FollowHim]

So what exactly is God being faithful to?

@FollowHim

God is being faithful to His elect, who come to Him for forgiveness, healing and cleansing. And His elect show themselves by being overcomers through it all.

While there is still light there is always hope, because as the prodigal son returns to the Father there is cleansing and forgiveness for all who come to Him and abide.

 

[marks]

If one looks at the scripture, we are justified in a relationship with the expectation of following and changing. Grace is given only on the expectation of change.

OK, this helps me to understand what you are saying.

I believe that grace is in God giving us Christ, and in receiving the gift of Christ, change is immediate and permanent.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Some argue if we stay as we are, that is all that is required.

Being born again is not staying as you were.

 

[marks]

We could spend this grace on being lazy and ignoring God, except He warns that judgement will eventually follow.

I have a very different understanding of what grace is and does.

If one thinks of Grace as the forgiveness of sins, and the freedom to remain alive though a sinner, well, that is grace, yes, God's forebearance. But the saving grace that I have in mind is that God forgives us our sins, and gives us Jesus, Whose presence in us gives us a new and eternal life, and this is to be born of God.

Much love!

 

[FollowHim]

A heroin addict who goes through addiction therapy, and becomes free of the drug has a choice.
They can relapse and go back to the drug or continue free.

If they relapse, they are no longer an ex-addict. The whole point of leaving taking heroin is it has now stopped.

Jesus cleanses us from sin so we can abide in Him. If we return to sin and rebellion, we have denied Jesus and His value, and are just sinners lost and without hope.

For a believer to claim they are still a believer and God should honour their dead faith is just a miss-understanding of sinners and the Kingdom of heaven. To them it is just an escape ticket out of this world, with no expectation of change here and now. But the gospel is all about a new life in Him, a new behaviour governed by God will and the Holy Spirit, and full of love and gentleness.

Just read the words of the apostles. This is the expectation of Gods Holy people, to not even have a hint of sexual immorality, to be a light to the world of what the Lord can do in peoples lives.

Praise the Lord there are some who truly find this reality, Amen, Thank you Jesus.

 

[marks]

God is being faithful to His elect, who come to Him for forgiveness, healing and cleansing. And His elect show themselves by being overcomers through it all.

I'm becoming confused!

Is it that we "show ourselves overcomers" or that "we must overcome"?

I would say that the born again show by a new life that they are born again. Rather than, the born again must show a new life to remain born again.

Much love!

 

[FollowHim]

I have a very different understanding of what grace is and does.

If one thinks of Grace as the forgiveness of sins, and the freedom to remain alive though a sinner, well, that is grace, yes, God's forebearance. But the saving grace that I have in mind is that God forgives us our sins, and gives us Jesus, Whose presence in us gives us a new and eternal life, and this is to be born of God.

Much love!

What is the fruit of Jesus in us? Is it just a nice set of songs and a new social group? Or is it something more profound?

 

[marks]

A heroin addict who goes through addiction therapy, and becomes free of the drug has a choice.
They can relapse and go back to the drug or continue free.

And if the teen heroin addict is on the street with no hope, and a would-be father adopts that young person, and puts them in rehab, and takes them into their home, and that addict relapses, the adoptive father . . . what? Goes to court to annul the adoption? Is what he wants?

Or does he go after them to get them back into rehab?

The addict's adoption is a separate matter from their addiction.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Or is it something more profound?

Something more profound than anything else that we could possibly bring to the table.

Much love!

 

[FollowHim]

I'm becoming confused!

Is it that we "show ourselves overcomers" or that "we must overcome"?

I would say that the born again show by a new life that they are born again. Rather than, the born again must show a new life to remain born again.

Much love!

Jesus is conveying to us we will become overcomers if we are truly in Him. There is a sense God prunes and trains us, He works in our hearts and lives, and makes us into something He desires.

The wording is we are to do things, but in reality it is only Jesus in us who brings this about.
It is like an athlete training, we need the training to survive the race, in preparation. We do not know what we need but God will provide. So Jesus laid out problems in the church through Revelation, and those who heard, Gods people, became overcomers.

You cannot lose what you do not have, and what you do have from God is shown by the path He leads you through. God bless you

 

[FollowHim]

And if the teen heroin addict is on the street with no hope, and a would-be father adopts that young person, and puts them in rehab, and takes them into their home, and that addict relapses, the adoptive father . . . what? Goes to court to annul the adoption? Is what he wants?

Or does he go after them to get them back into rehab?

The addict's adoption is a separate matter from their addiction.

Much love!

The problem is the addiction, and the only solution is rehab. And rehab only works by abiding in the relationship with the adoptive parent. And the return to the drug is the rejection of the parent, permanently if they stay there.

The walk with Jesus here on earth is no different than the same walk in heaven. It is the point of the parable of Lazarus. Reject Jesus here your reject Him in heaven as well. It is why denying Jesus is so crucial as an event. The veil between life and death is one heart beat away.

The idol people hold up is being born again. If they reject their status in Christ, what is there for them? Hebrews addresses those who do this. Many back slide, let life and issues cause them to drift away and go cold. They do not know what they had or if they truly want it again, but they no longer have faith or a life in God. This is certainly not living a life worthy of Christ, so is there possible nothing to save in the spiritual sense?

 

[FollowHim]

Something more profound than anything else that we could possibly bring to the table.

Much love!

So it is something more profound except in some nothing happens, there is no fruit or connection, nothing that lasts or reflects the eternal realities of Christ. So Paul said simply, if this profound reality has taken place, it must show itself or it is not there.

Add to this the enemy sows weeds among the corn. And we are called not to separate them, just let them be until harvest. So I just praise the Lord and know we just need to shine and the Lord takes care of the rest, Amen.

God bless you

 

[marks]

So it is something more profound except in some nothing happens, there is no fruit or connection, nothing that lasts or reflects the eternal realities of Christ. So Paul said simply, if this profound reality has taken place, it must show itself or it is not there.

Add to this the enemy sows weeds among the corn. And we are called not to separate them, just let them be until harvest. So I just praise the Lord and know we just need to shine and the Lord takes care of the rest, Amen.

God bless you

Agreed! Every word!

And only to add, in some it takes more time to be visible than in others, and in some progress appears faster than in others, though comparing between ourselves is risky at best, so, yes, let them all grow.

Those who present themself to me as Christian, I exhort to live in the faith of Christ, and whether they truly are or not, that's His Word, so I'll preach it looking for it to fulfill it's purpose.

Much love!

 

[mjrhealth]

There is a difference between a statement and a transformation.
As Paul said, he did not accept someones conversion until they could show works of repentance.

I can claim anything but my actions declare what I really believe. Jesus justifies the repentant sinner, not the sinner who claims all the promises but refuses to leave wickedness.

The argument is leaving wickedness is a choice ie earning reward or the fruit of a real change in ones heart. Sad for all concerned it is both. God is faithful to the righteous, as Job declares.
But to square this with repentant sinners, a sinners must become righteous, which is done by faith. To deny righteousness from the heart, is to deny the very free gift Jesus has brought.

The dilemma is in repentance are there sins Jesus does not forgive, even if not known about. The answer appears to be no. It is walking clean from this point onwards that is our challenge. It is what creates the tension and often disappointment when people discover they are so far from Jesus, the cost is very high, and such a change seems impossible.

Paul calls this aiming at perfection. It is marked by perseverance, fight, grit, determination, self control, love, service, giving.

When we are in Christ we are righteous because of Him not because of us, not one thing we can do to add to His righteousness. The time will come when we will be changed, it hasnt happened yet, If we are unwilling or ashamed to admit what we are than we can never be fully in Him. Those in Him will never be ashamed.

 

[FollowHim]

When we are in Christ we are righteous because of Him not because of us, not one thing we can do to add to His righteousness. The time will come when we will be changed, it hasnt happened yet, If we are unwilling or ashamed to admit what we are than we can never be fully in Him. Those in Him will never be ashamed.

I understand your perspective when you said in Jesus there are no emotions. If the world was without emotion, how would we know when danger was present or it was a time of safety and victory or caution and work.

Emotion is a way of telling us in summary how we need to respond to a situation. It is linked to any number of queues and triggers, which we can set up and change as necessary. They have discovered as people we have an emotional memory and an intellectual memory. We can lose our intellectual memory, facts, locations etc. and still have an emotional memory triggered. In the science fiction series Star Trek the debate is about vulcans who are just logical without feelings, and this is so unhuman.

One of the things about Jesus is he speaks on a pure emotional level that cuts across all layers of society and intellect. When Jesus says to enter the Kingdom we have to become like little children, children learn how to balance facts and emotion together, how to de-stress themselves, how to cope and solve difficult problems where there is a large amount of risk. Jesus knew how to speak into situations and apply the appropriate emotion and details that fitted exactly what was needed.

Jesus could talk to sinners, relate to their trauma and difficulty because He was a man with a heart, who could feel anothers pain. To be in Christ is to be connected to every aspect of oneself, to have nothing hidden, to see things as they are. Some call this to be totally authentic, the same at every level of who we are. C S Lewis described it in the great divorce that sinners where like ghosts, but the more time you spent in the Kingdom the more real and defined you become.

When Elijah after Mt Camal could not cope with Jezebel and the continued desire for his life, God comforted him, showed Elijah His support and nature, that at the Lords heart is a still small voice. The Lord knows the cost and the trials, and after doing all, finding that place of peace.
Heaven is full of praise, glory, elation, worship, beauty, joy beyond our understanding, because this is the King of Kings, the humblest of them all, the creator who became a man, who bent and gave His all, yet stands exalted above everything. That is our Lord. Amen. God bless you

 

[FollowHim]

Can I imagine a life without emotion? Death.
What we call the arts, is all about how emotion is intertwined with our life story and our big adventures.
I am married with children. If you want a roller coaster ride of emotion that is it, and appropriateness, and when to cut off and when to move forward, when to wait, and when to express our deepest loves and cares. It pins us all together, as we reach out, show concern, know anothers burdens and helps lift them up.

When you see families where emotions are wild beasts, triggered incorrectly, tearing each apart, and then putting in conflict and unresolvable splits, you know emotions are wild when the Lord is not King, and His peace and the cross has not come to reign. Sin destroys, tears down, makes the building on sand collapse unable to be repaired. We are built to walk within the limits God has provided, even the weakest can know this safety. I know it because in my weakness I have walked His path. And the Lord is King, and His way is the way of life. People think the building Jesus talks about in the sermon on the mount is works, but it is our emotional selves, our alliances, loves, connections, hopes and dreams, our expressions, our dealings with others and how we cope. The storms are trials and shifts in our lives, which we have no control over, but test everything. And does the building stand or does it fall? I have seen many fall, and never to recover.

Wise men will call me foolish, evil, wrong, yet the tragedy few listen to Jesus and live the simple life, the life of righteousness and love. But this is the way of life, not earning the way to heaven, but the way of heaven in His people. Are you one of the Kingdom and do you walk His way?

 

[mjrhealth]

Can I imagine a life without emotion? Death.

When we live a life based on emotions, than we are easy to deceive, it is the reason why so many chase after fairy tails and false miracles, because the flesh is easy to please. Our emotions where given to us for our flesh to survive on this earth, fear to prepare us for war to run, laughter, to heal to release good things into our body, tears and sadness to cleanse us and to help us over come the problem, Love, those butterflies in the stomach, all for our own good so we recognize the one who was meant for us.

Anger was never meant for us, anger and hate is not love, these all stem from fear, when we loose control, and that is not from God.

 

[FollowHim]

When we live a life based on emotions, than we are easy to deceive, it is the reason why so many chase after fairy tails and false miracles, because the flesh is easy to please. Our emotions where given to us for our flesh to survive on this earth, fear to prepare us for war to run, laughter, to heal to release good things into our body, tears and sadness to cleanse us and to help us over come the problem, Love, those butterflies in the stomach, all for our own good so we recognize the one who was meant for us.

Anger was never meant for us, anger and hate is not love, these all stem from fear, when we loose control, and that is not from God.

So for you heaven is a place with no emotions, literally.

4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.
Rev 21:4

How does Jesus describe the angels reaction to a sinner who repents?

7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
Luke 15:7

If emotional reaction to God is wrong why does James tell us to do this

9 Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom.
10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.
James 4:9-10

If sadness is wrong why does Jesus say this

3 Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.
Matt 5:3-4

There is an important aspect of life, to recognise the effects of sin and the sad state mankind is in and ourselves very often caught up in things of the world.
For this reason Jesus exhorts to see the true spiritual state of things, and know our need of heaven, and grace in our lives. Rather than sadness should be avoided, it is true to know how much pain comes with this fallen world and how many die lost and doomed to destruction.

4 I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside.
5 Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals."
Rev 5:4-5

God made us and we were good. It was the fall that separated us from God, not because we feel and respond. Our feelings are fundamental to who we are. All our dearest relationships reflect our expressions and out workings of our feelings. A faith with the denial of empathy and care is no relationship at all.

I sincerely would worry for anyone who thinks God is unfeeling and uncaring, just a logical creator. God bless you