God is wrath!

[elysian]

Shalom,

I am tired of hearing people say God is love as if he's Santa Claus. No, God is wrath because that's the attribute which is most easily experienced and perceived in a fallen world. God is love too but only in heaven, not in a fallen world. In this world, we have glimpses of God's mercy and love but the fullness of his wrath. Only in heaven, we'll truly experience his love.

I hope people understand this and not take this the wrong way. I am only warning people so that they don't lose faith in God - and they invariably will when bad things happen and they start wondering why a loving God would refuse to hear their cries.

Elysian

 

[aspen]

Really? Why would anyone want to worship a wrathful God? Jesus called Him Abba......

 

[elysian]

Really? Why would anyone want to worship a wrathful God? Jesus called Him Abba......

Because he is also love, which is why he gave us his only son. Doesn't, however, mean he isn't full of wrath.

 

[biggandyy]

+1
+1
+1
+1
+1
+1

 

[aspen]

Because he is also love, which is why he gave us his only son. Doesn't, however, mean he isn't full of wrath.

Hmm.....

I am a believer in God's Sovereignty, but not at the risk of His mercy and love. What you are really touching on is the problem of pain in the World. I tend to believe that evil in the World is domino affect from our initial sin in the Garden. Sure people in the Bible attributed every bad thing that happened to them as punishment from God, but was it really? I think the message the OT is trying to tell us is that God is sovereign and that humanity has no real way to respond to it. The message of the NT is God's perfect response to His own sovereignty - Jesus.

God has given us life in order for us to be redeemed - Jesus taught us to love in all situations - even in the face of fear and evil and sin - the HS encourages us and leads us on in our sanctification. The highest form of love is forgiveness and it is the Good God is bringing out of the terrible Fall we experienced.

So is God wrathful? I do not believe He is. I believe all wrath comes from our sin.

 

[dougishere]

Didn't God pour his wrath out on his Son?..... He's reserving the earth for judgment. But all believers can have a wrathless God, a firm and disciplining God though, but a loving unwrathful God. Why? Because all his holy indignation and wrath was poured on Jesus. This is a basic truth of the Gospel.

 

[elysian]

Aspen,

When Adam and eve committed sin, did God forgive them? No, he punished them. But if God is love and only love, then he should be forgivjng us no matter what we do. So, while your free will argument is noted, it doesn't change the fact that God chose to punish rather than forgive. Meaning, he is wrath even if he is love.

Elysian

 

[dougishere]

Aspen,

When Adam and eve committed sin, did God forgive them? No, he punished them. But if God is love and only love, then he should be forgivjng us no matter what we do. So, while your free will argument is noted, it doesn't change the fact that God chose to punish rather than forgive. Meaning, he is wrath even if he is love.

Elysian

Jesus hadn't lived yet (in the flesh) to absorb the holy wrath of God in Adam's time.

Holy wrath and discipline are two very different things. I go as far to say God disciplines Christians, but there is no condemnation for those who live in Christ. Condemnation is related to wrath and fear of wrath. That's why it's important to believe in the Good News about our savior and father in heaven.

 

[elysian]

Jesus hadn't lived yet (in the flesh) to absorb the holy wrath of God in Adam's time.

Are we now magically transported to heaven, or are we still on earth experiencing God's wrath?

 

[goodshepard55]

Didn't God pour his wrath out on his Son?..... He's reserving the earth for judgment. But all believers can have a wrathless God, a firm and disciplining God though, but a loving unwrathful God. Why? Because all his holy indignation and wrath was poured on Jesus. This is a basic truth of the Gospel.

Amen and Amen

 

[dougishere]

Are we now magically transported to heaven, or are we still on earth experiencing God's wrath?

Unbelievers have the wrath of God on them, yes. But this is a Christian site and I know my Father in heaven has no wrathful thoughts towards me, even when I sin and mess up.

 

[biggandyy]

Then all of you who disagree believe in universal reconciliation? Because that is what you are implying. If God has no wrath left in His tank then Satan and all the workers on iniquity have nothing to worry about at the end of the age because, according to your thinking, God has no wrath left with which to punish them.

 

[elysian]

Unbelievers have the wrath of God on them, yes. But this is a Christian site and I know my Father in heaven has no wrathful thoughts towards me, even when I sin and mess up.

Are you saying believers never suffer? Didn't the apostles suffer?

 

[dougishere]

Then all of you who disagree believe in universal reconciliation? Because that is what you are implying. If God has no wrath left in His tank then Satan and all the workers on iniquity have nothing to worry about at the end of the age because, according to your thinking, God has no wrath left with which to punish them.

What I said was God's wrath rests on unbelievers, not his own children.

Are you saying believers never suffer? Didn't the apostles suffer?

Suffering is relavent to the glory of God. God doesn't get off by someone suffering. We all suffer for the sake of sin in this earth, but God is compassionate the whole way with a sufferer. Wrath, well, none of us would want to taste God's holy wrath.

 

[biggandyy]

I wasn't addressing you but the others who flaunt their "righteous indignation" indepenant of reason and careful meditation on scripture.

 

[dougishere]

Ya, righteous indignation belongs to God, you're right. "Leave room for the anger of the Lord, for he says I WILL REPAY."

 

[aspen]

Aspen,

When Adam and eve committed sin, did God forgive them? No, he punished them. But if God is love and only love, then he should be forgivjng us no matter what we do. So, while your free will argument is noted, it doesn't change the fact that God chose to punish rather than forgive. Meaning, he is wrath even if he is love.

Elysian

Aspen,

When Adam and eve committed sin, did God forgive them? No, he punished them. But if God is love and only love, then he should be forgivjng us no matter what we do. So, while your free will argument is noted, it doesn't change the fact that God chose to punish rather than forgive. Meaning, he is wrath even if he is love.

Elysian

I am not sure forgiveness without repentance is love. Also, how would Adam and Eve understand forgiveness if God gave it to them? I think God did what He had to do in order to teach them forgiveness and bring them and their descendants back to perfection through redemption.

I believe in Hell. However, I believe it is God's mercy. It is the best place for people who have remained unredeemed - it saves them from spending eternity in the presence of a Holy God.

 

[elysian]

What I said was God's wrath rests on unbelievers, not his own children.


Suffering is relavent to the glory of God. God doesn't get off by someone suffering. We all suffer for the sake of sin in this earth, but God is compassionate the whole way with a sufferer. Wrath, well, none of us would want to taste God's holy wrath.

Point is, we suffer on earth and God doesn't stop it. Even after christ's sacrifice, we continue to suffer.

I am not sure forgiveness without repentance is love. Also, how would Adam and Eve understand forgiveness if God gave it to them? I think God did what He had to do in order to teach them forgiveness and bring them and their descendants back to perfection through redemption.

I believe in Hell. However, I believe it is God's mercy. It is the best place for people who have remained unredeemed - it saves them from spending eternity in the presence of a Holy God.

See above. why do we suffer even after Christ's sacrifice?

 

[aspen]

This life certainly involves a lot of suffering. I wonder if we are experience the sadness God felt when we chose ourselves over Him - it really is like a spousal betrayal. I think Christ as God's heart breaking for us on the Cross.

 

[Rach1370]

Aspen,

When Adam and eve committed sin, did God forgive them? No, he punished them. But if God is love and only love, then he should be forgivjng us no matter what we do. So, while your free will argument is noted, it doesn't change the fact that God chose to punish rather than forgive. Meaning, he is wrath even if he is love.

Elysian

Yes God is wrathful. The Bible speaks of His wrath too often to deny that. But it only addresses His wrath against His enemies. As Christians we are now seen righteous in His eyes, therefore we are not His enemies. It's kind of that simple.

Are we now magically transported to heaven, or are we still on earth experiencing God's wrath?

The difficulties we experience here on earth are not a result of the wrath of God. We suffer because of sin...because of others sin, because of ours, because the world itself is fallen. You may think that God allows us to be effected by this and that is His wrath against us, but what do we say about the Bibles repeated explanations of how we have been reconciled to Him through Christ? Of how there is now no condemnation in those who are in Christ? So why does God allow us to suffer? Romans 5 tells us that "suffering produces endurance, and that endurance produces character, and character produces hope and hope does not put us to shame". Basically, we suffer because God uses it to draw us closer to Him, and to make His glory known.

Then all of you who disagree believe in universal reconciliation? Because that is what you are implying. If God has no wrath left in His tank then Satan and all the workers on iniquity have nothing to worry about at the end of the age because, according to your thinking, God has no wrath left with which to punish them.

Oh no! God has plenty of wrath yet! He's just patient! I think He shows His wrath in ways now, to unbelievers...we're told that God 'set's Himself against them'....but I don't think it's an outright 'smite' wrath....yet. He is allowing people as much time as possible to repent, because He is love...but ultimately He will say 'enough' and history will end and then they will see the 'wine press' of His wrath. It's a bit like Satan, I think. Clearly the evil one is in for some big time wrath, but God is patient in this punishment, letting it play out until His divinely appointed time. But when that time comes, everyone will be futile to stop both judgement and righteous punishment.