God wants to save Christians too. --- Say what?

[GeneZ]

Why do you connect that verse with the Day of Atonement.?
I don't think it has anything to do with that.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

/

The Day of Atonement? That is because Jesus is our High Priest.

Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, ​

Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess." Hebrews 4:14​

Leviticus 16 - on the Day of Atonement the high priest of Israel entered the Holy of Holies to make an Atonement for the sin of the entire nation.

Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) was commanded under the Law. It symbolically represented the reality that was later to be found with the FINAL Atonement of the Cross.

grace and peace .................

 

[CadyandZoe]

There is no universal restoration. Atonement does not bring that about by default.
If it could? Then it would not require believing in Christ to be saved.
Atonement kept man from extinction! Being able to stay alive to decide about the Lord.

I think I understand your point about keeping us alive. Paul talked about the forbearance of God, waiting for us to repent. Certainly, God could pinch us out of existence at any time and he would be right to do so. And I agree that believing in Christ is essential. I don't think I would say that the atonement kept man from extinction because I think God outlined this situation and set of conditions from before the foundation of the world was laid. God doesn't pinch us out of existence because he has plans for it to continue to the praise of his glory.

The purpose and aim of the atonement was reconciliation between God and man as our Apostle Paul has said.

2 Corinthians 5:18-20
Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

In this passage, Paul urges his readers to be reconciled with God. Unlike justification, which is a process that only God can bring about invisibly, reconciliation can only occur when both parties resolve to end their hostilities. In his letter to the Hebrews, Paul explains that atonement happened when Jesus entered the heavenly temple, offering his own blood as a propitiation, appealing to God on behalf of his followers.

not counting their trespasses against them

Many Christians believe that propitiation refers to an atoning sacrifice, namely the death of Christ on the cross. This sacrifice is believed to have satisfied God's wrath and justice for the sins of his people. However, I respectfully disagree with this view, as it paints the atonement as a matter of justice, rather than an act of mercy since God is not counting our transgressions against us.

The cross wasn't the satisfaction of Jesus, rather, as Paul describes in Romans 3, the cross was an act of propitiation - an act of appeasing God to gain his favor. It answers to the question, "What will it take to make peace with God?" The cross established the means to make peace with God for those who want to make peace with God. For our part, we are required to believe the gospel and find justification by faith. God has ceased his hostilities toward man; we must cease our hostilites with God, by faith in his son and believing the gospel message.

In Romans 5, Paul lays out the relationship between reconciliation and salvation.

Romans 5:1-5

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.​

As Paul explained, God reconciled the world to Himself through Jesus Christ. Therefore, God's friends are those whom He has justified by faith. We have achieved this justification through faith in God, and we now rejoice in the hope of God's glory. In other words, now that we are at peace with God and have become His friends, He can grant us eternal life. This means that the atonement is not a satisfaction of God's justice; it is an appeal for God's mercy based on the propitiation Jesus supplied.

Jesus died for everyone's sins. That means even Satan himself can not know who will believe and be accepted by God next....

I'm not sure what you mean by that. I know that some Christians picture Satan as God's equal adversary. But I don't believe this idea is Biblical. Satan can never thwart God's plans or keep anyone from being saved.

Keep in mind. God is making his enemies into his footstool.
Do you understand that factor?
Its not only about us. For angels are also players in the same battle.

Therefore.. by having unlimited atonement? It totally destabilizes Satan and his angels in the spiritual warfare.
Because, the fallen angels will be always know that no matter all they do to get the upper hand?
The next second could explode in their face, like with Paul.

The effects and ramifications of the atonement is not just about us! It involves evil angels too!

I don't see your point in the Bible.

And, keeps all the elect angels able to have complete hope no matter how bad something may appear to be.

​

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against ​

the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Ephesians 6:12​

All is fair in love and war.... In God's love!

I realize that some Christians interpret that passage in terms of angelic warfare and spiritual beings. But I don't think Paul was talking about spiritual beings at all in that passage. The rulers of the darkness of this world are men being led by Satan. Paul is talking about false teachers and the leaders of false religions. We wrestle against false ideas, and those who promote false ideas.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Last time I checked... God is not a she.
The Father is not "woke."

I don't follow. Did I say God was a she?

You argued that if the atonement wasn't universally applied, it would be unfair. I understood your objection in terms of the "Satisfaction Theory of the Atonement." What do I mean? The Bible describes God's justice in terms of retribution. God's justice aims to punish the wicked for the sins they commit, expressing condemnation and restoring the moral balance. Those who affirm the Satisfaction Theory of the cross, picture the cross as God punishing Jesus rather than us to satisfy justice. Once the moral balance was restored, God was free to forgive us for our sins rather than punishing us. And if Christ died for the sins of the entire world, then it would be unfair if God didn't apply Christ's atonement equally and to everyone.

I disagree with that view because the cross of Christ wasn't intended to satisfy justice. The Bible describes the cross as a propitiation for our sins and that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself. The cross of Christ is seen as the means to restoration or more accurately, the means to reconciliation and peace with God. It's an overture toward peace and an opportunity for healing. But in order to gain peace with God, an individual must look at the cross and admit, "That should have been me!"

Jesus finds a parallel between his crucifixion and the time Moses raised up the serpent in the wilderness.

John 3:13-15

No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.​

In order for the people to find healing, they were required to look at the serpent that Moses lifted up. Likewise, in order to find healing and restoration with God, we must look at Jesus on the cross. For this reason, and others, I don't think the cross is universally applied because not everyone will be willing to look at the cross and confess what it means in terms of our status before God.

God is willing to make peace with anyone who is willing to confess guilt and seek mercy on the basis that belief in Jesus is the only way to find eternal life.

And, when God says what He does about who gets mercy?

In effect... God was saying that only God knows who fulfills the requirement for God's justice.
You can waste your time if you like, and pray and beg all you want for someone's salvation.
But, it only those whom He knows to show mercy to, he will show mercy.

I agree, the status of "justified" is hidden in God, but the Apostle Paul reminds us that God has provided a "marker" to identify those who are justified. We know which men of old God justified because God said so explicitly, and in every case, God was responding to the faith of the ones whom he justified. Paul looks back over salvation history to notice when the men of old gained God's approval and faith in God is the common element. The presence of faith is the marker identifying those whom God approved.

Hebrews 11:1-2

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the men of old gained approval.​

There is a common misunderstanding among Christians that Paul speaks about everything we hope for and everything unseen.
However, this is not the case. In reality, Paul is talking about specific things we hope for and can't be seen. We hope for God's favor and eternal life. That is what we can't see yet. But we CAN know that we will not be disappointed because we believe in God and we believe in his son Jesus Christ.

In this passage, it is suggested that God's approval is the "unseen" thing, while our faith is what we can see. The actions of those in the past demonstrate how faith was put into practice and how God gave his approval. The apostle Paul argues that if faith was enough for God's approval in the past, then it is still enough for those who believe in Jesus Christ today. In the past, a person's faith in God was a sign of God's approval. Similarly, today, a person's faith in Jesus Christ is a sign of God's approval.

 

[GeneZ]

I don't follow. Did I say God was a she?

post 194 -- God wants to save Christians too. --- Say what?

GeneZ said:
There is a reason why Jesus died for the sins of all....
He would be unfair if He did not.

You - Only justice needs to be fair. The one showing mercy can show mercy on whomever he or she wants.


I was talking about Jesus.... What you said was worded in a confusing way....

 

[amigo de christo]

 

[GeneZ]

I realize that some Christians interpret that passage in terms of angelic warfare and spiritual beings. But I don't think Paul was talking about spiritual beings at all in that passage. The rulers of the darkness of this world are men being led by Satan. Paul is talking about false teachers and the leaders of false religions. We wrestle against false ideas, and those who promote false ideas.

Here is the verse again...

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against ​

the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Ephesians 6:12​

If a puppet gets in your face and says something obscene to your face. You hit the puppet? Or deal with the ventriloquist?

"We wrestle not against the puppet"....

These evil people you mentioned are puppets controlled by evil angelic beings in their thinking. They are inspired people by evil spiritual powers.

You have heard the term that someone is a puppet before. No?

Of course it is their ideas we must contend with. But, Paul wants us to know the power and real source behind those ideas. Its not the person.


grace and peace....

 

[CadyandZoe]

post 194 -- God wants to save Christians too. --- Say what?


You - Only justice needs to be fair. The one showing mercy can show mercy on whomever he or she wants.


I was talking about Jesus.... What you said was worded in a confusing way....

I was, of course, making a generalized statement about justice and mercy. My point is valid for both human and divine justice and mercy.

 

[Lambano]

Same thing. John isn't speaking about each and every person in the world. Otherwise, he would need to include himself and the other apostles. He and the other apostles were not in the grip of the evil one, therefore John was not being all inclusive. In other words, one can not argue for universal restoration from John's letters.

In theological terms, the point in question regarding 1 John 2:2 is the "extent" of the Atonement, not the "efficaciousness" of the Atonement. John sees life in terms of Light and Darkness. "Us" and "The Whole World" taken together includes pretty much everybody.

The question of "efficaciousness" usually includes the question of whether God requires a response out of each individual person. With side discussions about timeframe, culpability versus knowledge, forgiveness versus cleansing (i.e. righteousness, restoration of relationship vs. holiness, fitness to be in God's presence), etc.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Here is the verse again...

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against ​

the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Ephesians 6:12​

If a puppet gets in your face and says something obscene to your face. You hit the puppet? Or deal with the ventriloquist?

"We wrestle not against the puppet"....

These evil people you mentioned are puppets controlled by evil angelic beings in their thinking. They are inspired people by evil spiritual powers.

You have heard the term that someone is a puppet before. No?

Of course it is their ideas we must contend with. But, Paul wants us to know the power and real source behind those ideas. Its not the person.


grace and peace....

I disagree with your interpretation.

flesh and blood . . .
What is the antonym in this context? One might think that the antonym of flesh and blood in this context is spiritual, noncorporeal beings. But I don't think Paul is concerned with noncorporeal beings in this context. Rather, the particular antonym Paul has in mind is "Ideas." We wrestle not against flesh and blood; we wrestle against lies, falsehoods, libel, slander, false teaching, and an incorrect worldview, coming from so-called "experts", "teachers", "rabbis", "scribes", "Pharisees", "religious councils", magisterium, catechisms, and doctrinal confessions.

Our weapons are the gospel of peace, faith, salvation, and the word of God.

Bottom line, its truth against lies.

Paul mentions the schemes of the Devil, I think, because the Devil is often the instigator of persecution, oppression, threats of violence, and censorship.

 

[CadyandZoe]

In theological terms, the point in question regarding 1 John 2:2 is the "extent" of the Atonement, not the "efficaciousness" of the Atonement. John sees life in terms of Light and Darkness. "Us" and "The Whole World" taken together includes pretty much everybody.

The question of "efficaciousness" usually includes the question of whether God requires a response out of each individual person. With side discussions about timeframe, culpability versus knowledge, forgiveness versus cleansing (i.e. righteousness, restoration of relationship vs. holiness, fitness to be in God's presence), etc.

Thank you. Important and insightful in my opinion.

I was trying to express my answer in terms of a general principle that states that a thing is effective if it achieves the intended aim or goal. I am familiar with at least two theories of the atonement, but both seem to misconstrue God's purpose behind the atonement. If we claim that the cross was effective, we are claiming that it served God's purpose. And so what was his purpose? That's the question.

Saint Anselm, for instance, who lived during a time of chivalry, understood the atonement in terms of the code of chivalry. In his view, our sin offended God's honor. According to St Anselm, the cross does satisfy God’s honor. He argued that human sin dishonored God and created a debt that humans could not repay. Only Christ, who was both God and man, could offer a perfect sacrifice of obedience that would honor God and restore the balance of justice.

Although I understand his point, I believe that the idea of atonement gains significance from the Hebrew background rather than the medieval period. The restoration is not of honor, but rather of a previously broken relationship. Those who were once considered enemies of God can become his friends by believing in Christ. And God is willing to do a lot for his friends.

 

[GeneZ]

I was, of course, making a generalized statement about justice and mercy. My point is valid for both human and divine justice and mercy.

Human mercy can often be misguided and emotion driven

God's mercy is based upon knowing all things, and at times may seem odd to humans watching God give mercy to someone they would never consider giving mercy to. Like God giving mercy to Paul after he had murdered and persecuted Christians. There remained a segment of believers that wanted nothing to do with Paul.

 

[GeneZ]

I disagree with your interpretation.

flesh and blood . . .
What is the antonym in this context? One might think that the antonym of flesh and blood in this context is spiritual, noncorporeal beings. But I don't think Paul is concerned with noncorporeal beings in this context. Rather, the particular antonym Paul has in mind is "Ideas." We wrestle not against flesh and blood; we wrestle against lies, falsehoods, libel, slander, false teaching, and an incorrect worldview, coming from so-called "experts", "teachers", "rabbis", "scribes", "Pharisees", "religious councils", magisterium, catechisms, and doctrinal confessions.

Our weapons are the gospel of peace, faith, salvation, and the word of God.

Bottom line, its truth against lies.

Paul mentions the schemes of the Devil, I think, because the Devil is often the instigator of persecution, oppression, threats of violence, and censorship.

After all that said?

Back again:

but against principalities, against powers, against

the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." ​

That's not speaking of ideas. That speaks of the source of the evil ideas. We are fight real invisible entities in our spiritual warfare.

Witch covens can have more effect on who gets promoted to power in this world than many realize. Witches are not all back woods unsophisticated hicks.. but quite often evil spirits are the power behind certain politicians and people of influence

Its why Communism hates Christianity. Real Christianity, that is... Sound Christianity effects their ability to control the minds of people when enough Christians walk in sound doctrine in sufficient numbers in a nation. Jesus called it being "the salt of the earth." Salt was seen as means to preserve foods back then.

Nations that have too many in their Christian base become idiotic and apostate will see their nation in a decline, and often times enter its demise from once greatness... That is why Jesus said the following:

​

“You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? ​

It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men." Matthew 5:13​

Keep in mind. The Lord said that if only ten righteous were found in Sodom He would have preserved the city. "Salt."
That is why false doctrine is harmful to your nation if too many Christians become "good for nothing" in God's purpose.

grace and peace.............

 

[amigo de christo]

Human mercy can often be misguided and emotion driven

God's mercy is based upon knowing all things, and at times may seem odd to humans watching God give mercy to someone they would never consider giving mercy to. Like God giving mercy to Paul after he had murdered and persecuted Christians. There remained a segment of believers that wanted nothing to do with Paul.

last part be incorrect . there , at FIRST remained a part of believers who rather , feared paul
and still THOUGHT he was not a true convert . they rather feared , it was a guise .
Lets read our bible for ourselves . Too many are working for an agenda , THEY WONT be for us
but rather for an all inclusive non correcting agenda .
THE desciples did not hate the fact paul was saved , nor that GOD gave mercy
rather some of them didnt beleive the conversion was true but rather paul was coming in under guise
to spy them out . JUST keeping it real my friend . SO allow me some parting words .
ITS NOT SIN , NOR JUDGING , TO CORRECT SIN and ERROR within the church .
TIME to make biblical correction GREAT AGAIN . THEY feared pual , cause they simply thought it was a hoax
THEY DIDNT DESPISE anyone getting saved. just keeping it real . reality is a beautiful thing indeed .
IT SHUTS DOWN the all inclusive lovey do voices REAL fast . time to make biblical correction great again .
PS that do include homosexuality within the church . correct all sin and all error WITHIN the church .
I say again , correct any and all error within the church . and so i type again , correct any and all error within the church .
GOD saved the WORST when he saved me . WHAT GOD DIDNT DO was allow me to REMAIN IN SIN and FEEL SAVED .
i suggest we , by that same grace DO for others .

 

[CadyandZoe]

After all that said?

Back again:

but against principalities, against powers, against

the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." ​

That's not speaking of ideas. That speaks of the source of the evil ideas. We are fight real invisible entities in our spiritual warfare.

I disagree. Paul is talking about human authorities. Not spirit beings.

 

[GeneZ]

last part be incorrect . there , at FIRST remained a part of believers who rather , feared paul
and still THOUGHT he was not a true convert . they rather feared , it was a guise .
Lets read our bible for ourselves .

How does that make what I said "incorrect?"

It only confirms what I said.

 

[GeneZ]

I disagree. Paul is talking about human authorities. Not spirit beings.

Feel free to disagree.

 

[amigo de christo]

How does that make what I said "incorrect?"

It only confirms what I said.

cause you said it wrong . IT WASNT Cause GOD gave mercy to such a man as paul that the apostels or desciples rejected him .
That part IS FALSE . the reason they feared or rejected paul , his converison etc , was cause they
DIDNT think HE had truly been converted .

 

[GeneZ]

cause you said it wrong . IT WASNT Cause GOD gave mercy to such a man as paul that the apostels or desciples rejected him .
That part IS FALSE . the reason they feared or rejected paul , his converison etc , was cause they
DIDNT think HE had truly been converted .

I am not sure why you are seeing that in what I said...

I said...

God's mercy is based upon knowing all things, and at times may seem odd to humans watching God give mercy to someone they would never consider giving mercy to. Like God giving mercy to Paul after he had murdered and persecuted Christians. There remained a segment of believers that wanted nothing to do with Paul.

They refused to believe God gave Paul mercy. Refused to believe he was saved. That is what I was saying.

That was because they had no comprehension in their legalistic minds for understanding the fulness of God's Atonement and redemption.

What happened to Paul was like legalists do today when refusing to believe David was saved because he was having an affair with Bathsheba and had her husband murdered.

God's Atonement covers every sin any believer may commit.

The only sin not paid for? Is the one that causes God to deny salvation. i.e., blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.