God's Original Act of Creation

[veteran]

I don't think I have been off topic with anything I have written. But perhaps that is your latest tactic - pretending that someone who disagrees with you is off topic. But OK, let's "stay on topic" and look at the scriptures:

My argument about your evasion is solid, because there is no debate about phrases like "in the beginning". The gap idea never has denied that God created the heavens and the earth "in the beginning" per Genesis 1:1. With trying to assign other Scriptures with the word 'beginning' in them back to Gen.1:1, just because they have the word 'beginning', is vague and illogical, simply because that word is always in relation to an object it's tied to. In the case of Gen.1:1, it's about God's creation of the heavens and the earth. In Matt.19:4, it's about God specifically creating Adam and Even and declaring them to become one per Gen.2.

No, nothing vague at all about them. But what is vague is that from these four occurreces of 'tohuw' you somehow think that it indicates that, for some unfathomable reason, we have a creation in scripture that is not mentioned explicitly (that is, not vaguely) anywhere in the entire bible.

Already you're trying to assign the Scriptures I point out as having failed, before all the Biblical evidence is even in. Your last statement is irrational, since I've constantly declared that God emphatically created the heavens and the earth per Gen.1:1. It is explicit, and emphatic, in the Hebrew also.

Point really is, you cannot break what God showed with saying He did NOT create the earth 'tohuw' per Isaiah 45:18. And then with the earth in a tohuw state per Gen.1:2. There's only one simple and true Biblical solution to what He showed with that; it's that the earth became a waste and a ruin at Gen.1:2 because of some event. The simplicity of that Scripture comparison, is that if... one says God was creating the earth at Gen.1:2 in a tohuw ("without form") state, then it directly contradicts what He said in Isaiah 45:18 that He did not create it in that tohuw "without form" state.

So, the question is, did God create the earth in that tohuw state described in Gen.1:2, or not?

Doesn't matter how many other Scriptures you might try to bring into that in order to try and prove He did, because His declaration in Isaiah 45:18 is emphatic that He didn't. It's a simple matter of accepting that anything else other than what He said there is to contradict Him.

 

[FHII]

I'd love to sit and chat with Veteran because from what I briefly read, I agree with him on "Gap" theory. I never thought to call it that, but whatever. I support the idea that Satan was caste down somewhere between Gen 1:1 and 1:2, if that is what Vet's saying. That could explain a lot of stuff... Why do we have dinosaur bones? Maybe they were here before Gen 1:2..... I hate using maybe's. But since dinosaur's aren't in the Bible -- yet we have evidence of them -- maybe that's when they existed.

I hate this new attitude I have and being softcore in arguements.... But what other theory is out there to explain T Rex?

 

[ttruscott]

I too am liking the gap theory but to use it to support "Christian evolution" is a bit off to me...I don't believe in evolution at all and dinosaurs were GOD's trick on the enlightened scientists and they can't prove different for all their debating rules.



Peace,

Ted

 

[justaname]

I'd love to sit and chat with Veteran because from what I briefly read, I agree with him on "Gap" theory. I never thought to call it that, but whatever. I support the idea that Satan was caste down somewhere between Gen 1:1 and 1:2, if that is what Vet's saying. That could explain a lot of stuff... Why do we have dinosaur bones? Maybe they were here before Gen 1:2..... I hate using maybe's. But since dinosaur's aren't in the Bible -- yet we have evidence of them -- maybe that's when they existed.

I hate this new attitude I have and being softcore in arguements.... But what other theory is out there to explain T Rex?

Dinosaur to be specific is not in the Bible, neither is cat. Behemoth and leviathan are in the bible. To explain t-rex, look at Marco Polo, where he explains a animal he saw. Also Pliney the Elder and the creatures he explains. Also in China there has been found human footprints next to dinosaur prints fossilized in the ground. Another interesting fact, it was found in a dinosaur bone live tissue, in the marrow. The truth of the matter is most of this information is suppressed for the expansion of Darwinism. To understand the severity of the issue look at France, where atheism is the accepted national view. Try to speak about God there.
In the love of Christ, striving for truth.
Shalom

 

[UppsalaDragby]

OK now I am HUNGRY!! :wacko:

LOL! Actually when I was writing my pizza argument it was just before lunchtime where I am (in Sweden) and I was really myself hungry.

My argument about your evasion is solid, because there is no debate about phrases like "in the beginning".

How can responding to your argument possibly be evasive?

If I don't respond to your point I am evasive, if I do respond to your point I am evasive. That's how "solid" your argument is.

Your last statement is irrational, since I've constantly declared that God emphatically created the heavens and the earth per Gen.1:1. It is explicit, and emphatic, in the Hebrew also.

My last statement concerns your belief in a preceding creation which I cannot see any support for. Why is that irrational?

Or have I missunderstood you completely?

There's only one simple and true Biblical solution

No there's not, as clearly I pointed out. Isiah 45:18 explains that God did not create the earth to be void but "to be inhabited". The context of this verse indicates his intention. As I said, the biblical account describes the creation process in steps. In Gen 1:1 there were no plants, no animals, no birds, no fish, no humans etc. This he did later on according to fulfil his intention.

Doesn't matter how many other Scriptures you might try to bring into that in order to try and prove He did, because His declaration in Isaiah 45:18 is emphatic that He didn't. It's a simple matter of accepting that anything else other than what He said there is to contradict Him.

You are assuming that the translation of the word 'tohuw' is always used the same way. Hebrew uses words differently just as we do, depending of the context. Biblical scholars well schooled in the Hebrew of that time do the hard work of translating words according to context. Then someone picks up a concordance and joins dots to prove their theory. I think the translation of this word in the KJV as "in vain" is valid, due to the fact that it is followed by "he formed it to be inhabited". So you cannot emphatically claim that anyone is contradicting "Him".

"he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited" KJV

That could explain a lot of stuff... Why do we have dinosaur bones?

This seems to be the very reason the gap theory was originally shoehorned into the bible - to make it comply with modern theories. The word "Dinosaur" was not in use before 1841, whereas the KJV was translated in 1611.

I don't think it makes sense either to suppose that God wiped out the sun and moon and stars or whatever existed in that creation, just to recreate them again, all the while he retains the earth and lets us all live on a gigantic graveyard.

You would have thought he would keep the other stuff and recreated the very thing that was contaminated.

But who am I to tell God how to do his job.

 

[FHII]

This seems to be the very reason the gap theory was originally shoehorned into the bible - to make it comply with modern theories. The word "Dinosaur" was not in use before 1841, whereas the KJV was translated in 1611.

I don't think it makes sense either to suppose that God wiped out the sun and moon and stars or whatever existed in that creation, just to recreate them again, all the while he retains the earth and lets us all live on a gigantic graveyard.

You would have thought he would keep the other stuff and recreated the very thing that was contaminated.

But who am I to tell God how to do his job.

Well, the problem is that God did once wipe out everything except 8 people and a handful of animals; he did that with water. He also promised to do it with fire the next time. Also, it wasn't God that would've wiped out all that stuff. Satan was cast into the earth, and according to Revelation 12, it was Michael who did it. God just watched.

Don't know how that helps the conversation along.... Just thought I'd mention it.

Dinosaur to be specific is not in the Bible, neither is cat. Behemoth and leviathan are in the bible. To explain t-rex, look at Marco Polo, where he explains a animal he saw. Also Pliney the Elder and the creatures he explains. Also in China there has been found human footprints next to dinosaur prints fossilized in the ground. Another interesting fact, it was found in a dinosaur bone live tissue, in the marrow. The truth of the matter is most of this information is suppressed for the expansion of Darwinism. To understand the severity of the issue look at France, where atheism is the accepted national view. Try to speak about God there.
In the love of Christ, striving for truth.
Shalom

Well, there are plenty of cats in the Bible.... leopards, lions.... As for Marco Polo... I read his work back in college about 20 years ago. I remember him saying he came accross unicorns and perhaps mermaids (can't remember if that last one was noted). It turns out the unicorn (incidently, it's also in the Bible in the book of Job, along with Behemoth and Leviathan) was an Indian rhino. Most Bible scholars believe the unicorn to be a wild ox, the Behemoth to be a hippo, and the leviathan to be a salt water crocodile.... I'm not saying I agree with them or disagree with you.... In fact, I don't agree with the scholars.

However, you noted a lot of dinosaur evidence.... I don't understand your full position and why you would bring up Marco Polo... Unless you really believe he saw a white horse with a single horn. Do you think that, or do you think he saw a rhino? If you agree he saw a rhino, I don't understand your position.

Incidently, I couldn't find anything about dino prints and human prints in China. Texas yes, but not China. Also, I'm open to ideas.... but for the time being, I don't believe that dinosaurs and humans coexisted.

Also, by the way.... I don't believe in evolution....

 

[veteran]

There have been found dinosaur footprints along with perfect human arch footprints within them, fossilized together. Yet science cannot document human skeletal remains back to the time of dinosaurs.

Based on the gap idea, it would have to mean the human footprints documented with those dinosaur prints were angelic type footprints from the world that then was, not flesh human footprints. Man's science is not going to agree with that, simply because it cannot substantiate anything about an angelic existence upon this earth, not past, present, or future. But God's Word does, our Lord Jesus even revealing that those of the resurrection are like the angels of God in Heaven. Not that only, but angels per Scripture are shown to be able to appear on earth as men, eat our food, etc. (Gen.18 - 19).

I think a lot of brethren have a hard time with what God showed with those things, simply because they rely more on men with some set of worldly credentials at the end of their name to tell them what to believe instead.

 

[LoveJesus777]

A couple of points here...You are fond of quoting Paul...but it is Jesus Christ who is 'the way, the truth, and the life'...so we must use Jesus's teaching to compare Paul by.

Now...there is another way of looking at the teaching of Almighty God and getting the same truth from it. It is lateral thinking but a true Christian should be well able to cope with that.

If the entire universe is made from God's 'mighty power' then everything else is too...and this means God's Spirit is a manifestation of this same material. It also means that Jesus Christ taught us that we too have this same property within us and he showed us its capabilities over the flesh and over evil...providing...we follow certain laws. Those laws culminate into his life's story and we too can be co-sharers in it if we follow him accurately.

The alternative sounds pretty grim. Don't wait for the Judgment to find out.

* it is Jesus Christ who is 'the way, the truth, and the life'...so we must use Jesus's teaching * ...Yes..live by what Jesus taught..and everything else flows... The 2 Commandments He gave.

 

[UppsalaDragby]

Well, the problem is that God did once wipe out everything except 8 people and a handful of animals; he did that with water. He also promised to do it with fire the next time. Also, it wasn't God that would've wiped out all that stuff. Satan was cast into the earth, and according to Revelation 12, it was Michael who did it. God just watched.
Don't know how that helps the conversation along.... Just thought I'd mention it.

Neither do I know if it helps the converstation because I agree with it all, but thanks anyway.

Most Bible scholars believe the unicorn to be a wild ox, the Behemoth to be a hippo, and the leviathan to be a salt water crocodile

Bible scholars are experts in Hebrew, but if it happens that these animals no longer exist then what does their field of expertise help them? The unicorn could have been a wild ox, and the leviathan my have been a crocodile although it I would imagine its description suggests a much bigger animal, but in any case it is all just guesswork. As far as the Behemoth is concerned I don't think a hippo has a tail that "swings like a cedar".

There is absolutely nothing within the realms of science that proves an old earth. I think this is becoming more an more apparant. Few scientists would have dreamt in their wildest dreams that soft tissues and blood cells would possibly survive after 80 million years but once again they are changing their story to fit the evidence and calling it "science".

 

[justaname]

Well, the problem is that God did once wipe out everything except 8 people and a handful of animals; he did that with water. He also promised to do it with fire the next time. Also, it wasn't God that would've wiped out all that stuff. Satan was cast into the earth, and according to Revelation 12, it was Michael who did it. God just watched.

Don't know how that helps the conversation along.... Just thought I'd mention it.


Well, there are plenty of cats in the Bible.... leopards, lions.... As for Marco Polo... I read his work back in college about 20 years ago. I remember him saying he came accross unicorns and perhaps mermaids (can't remember if that last one was noted). It turns out the unicorn (incidently, it's also in the Bible in the book of Job, along with Behemoth and Leviathan) was an Indian rhino. Most Bible scholars believe the unicorn to be a wild ox, the Behemoth to be a hippo, and the leviathan to be a salt water crocodile.... I'm not saying I agree with them or disagree with you.... In fact, I don't agree with the scholars.

However, you noted a lot of dinosaur evidence.... I don't understand your full position and why you would bring up Marco Polo... Unless you really believe he saw a white horse with a single horn. Do you think that, or do you think he saw a rhino? If you agree he saw a rhino, I don't understand your position.

Incidently, I couldn't find anything about dino prints and human prints in China. Texas yes, but not China. Also, I'm open to ideas.... but for the time being, I don't believe that dinosaurs and humans coexisted.

Also, by the way.... I don't believe in evolution....

I don't have time now, and did not research this site fully but...
http://www.forbidden-history.com/marco-polo.html

TTYL
Shalom