Gods true nation, Spiritual Israel.

[David in NJ]

I am... seeing the whole picture, but you are not.

After the small remnant of the "house of Judah" at Judea-Jerusalem rejected Jesus Christ by crucifying Him, The Gospel then went to the Gentiles.

This is why Jesus said that He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the "house of Israel".

After the split of the old nation of Israel in the days of Solomon's son Rehoboam, God scattered the ten northern tribes out of the holy land never to return. Only a small remnant of the ten tribes chose to join with Judah in the southern lands at Judea.

In Romans 9, Apostle Paul speaking to Roman Gentile believers on Christ, quoted from the Book of Hosea to them. What is unique about that is,... the Book of Hosea was written to the ten tribe "house of Israel" of how God was getting ready to end their northern "kingdom of Israel" and scatter them among the Gentiles, and let them have their full strength of idol Baal worship that they left Him for. But then in Hosea, He gave prophecies about the ten tribes of how they later would wind up back unto Him, and would no more call Him 'Baali', but Ishi.

And in final, the "house of Israel" would be called the children of the living God.

Paul quoted that to Gentiles in Christ, so what's up with that? It's simple, for those who have studied their Old Testament prophecy. The Gentiles in Christ are to be INCLUDED among believing Israel when Jesus returns. And what Paul reveals by quoting from Hosea to Roman Gentiles is a POINTER to where many of the ten tribed "house of Israel" would wind up, and receive The Gospel along with those Gentiles.

This is what FULFILLED the Genesis 35 and 48 prophecies about the "company of nations" and "multitude of nations", by the history of the Western Christian Nations that sprang forth like wildfire after Jesus was rejected in Jerusalem. It involved the "multitude of nations" that Ephraim's seed was to become, and also his brother Manasseh who was to become great. Joseph's two sons is where God's Birthright finally wound upon, and is still with Joseph's two sons today.

Gen 48:14-20
14 And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn.

15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, 'God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God Which fed me all my life long unto this day,

16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.'

17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.

18 And Joseph said unto his father, 'Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.'

19 And his father refused, and said, 'I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.'

20 And he blessed them that day, saying, 'In thee shall Israel bless, saying, 'God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh': and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.
KJV

And you try to say l'm... the one who doesn't see the whole picture? That is just your vain attempt to try... and lord it over others, but not me, doesn't work with me, because I'm actually familiar with what God's Word says and teaches.

i notice that you went on a rabbit trail away from the original topic of Genesis 49 concerning Shiloh and the prophecy.

But since you mentioned the "house of Israel" = Matthew 15:21-28

v23 -v24 And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.”
But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

What do we SEE here - the LORD does not send her away = WHY?

v25 Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”

We know the story here = the LORD says to the woman of Canaan = "GREAT is your Faith"

Have you forgotten what JESUS says = And as he taught them, he said,
“Is it not written: ‘My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations’?

Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”
The Lord God, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says,
“Yet I will gather to him
Others besides those who are gathered to him.”
Isaiah 56:6-8

 

[David in NJ]

We find that the children of Israel thought they would be blessed no matter what they did, but they turned from God as a nation to the point that this special blessing was taken from them. Following the Exodus from Egypt, God formally entered into a covenant with the nation of Israel. Israel was to be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation and they were to spread light to all people on the face of the earth. The covenant promises made to ancient Israel were conditional to obedience.
"Now therefore, if ye will obey My voice indeed and keep My covenant, then ye shall be a special treasure unto Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine." Exodus 19:5

It clear that the promises were subject to "if"...
...that the Lord may continue His word which He spake concerning me, saying, "If thy children take heed to their way, to walk before Me in truth with all their heart and with all their soul, He said, there shall not fail thee a man on the throne of Israel." 1 Kings 2:4
We find throughout that the promises were conditional to obedience.
"And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God." Deuteronomy 28:2

Israel did, however, not heed this admonition and became more corrupt than the nations around them. So by the time of Christ they rejected even Him, the promised Messiah and they were warned in Matthew 21:33-45...

33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

You see that the Pharisees 'perceived' or basically saw He was speaking of them, the leaders who had killed many of Gods prophets and now wanted to kill Jesus, the son of God. Note how Jesus states that kingdom of God would be taken from them and given to a nation 'bringing forth the fruits thereof'.
When the Jewish nation rejected the Messiah, the gospel was to go to the Gentiles and all who would believe in the name of Jesus would become the spiritual descendants of Abraham.
"And if ye be Christs, then ye are Abrahams seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:29

And we see in Galatians 6:16 "And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.", here Paul speaks of Christians as the "Israel of God" The kingdom of God and the covenant promises associated with it were to be taken from the Jews and passed on to spiritual Israel, those who would permit Christ to transform them, to change their character .
"Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and given to a nation bearing forth the fruits of it. And whoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken; but on whomever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder." Matthew 21:43,44

In Romans 11:17-24, Paul speaks of the olive tree which represents Israel. The branches (Jews) were broken off because of unbelief and the wild olive shoots (Gentiles) were grafted in to share in the nourishment of the tree. The natural branches could be grafted back into the tree if they accepted the conditions. God is no respecter of nations or individuals. All who turn to Him will be accepted as we see in Acts 10:34-35 "34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."Acts 10:34-35

And we read more..
"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him." Romans 10:12
"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3:26

This new Israel, spiritual Israel, is the inheritor of Gods covenant promises. Those who have accepted Christ have become the chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God. They were chosen to reveal God to the world, and called out to shine the light of truth and prophecy of the end times..

EXCELLENT word of truth from the Word of Truth.

 

[Davy]

i notice that you went on a rabbit trail away from the original topic of Genesis 49 concerning Shiloh and the prophecy.

But since you mentioned the "house of Israel" = Matthew 15:21-28

v23 -v24 And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.”
But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

What do we SEE here - the LORD does not send her away = WHY?

v25 Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”

We know the story here = the LORD says to the woman of Canaan = "GREAT is your Faith"

Have you forgotten what JESUS says = And as he taught them, he said,
“Is it not written: ‘My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations’?

Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”
The Lord God, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says,
“Yet I will gather to him
Others besides those who are gathered to him.”
Isaiah 56:6-8

Your "rabbit trail" is simply YOUR label for your own LACK of understanding in God's written Word. If you had actually studied... God's Word, you would have known what I was talking about. But alas, you show your Biblical illiteracy for all to see.

 

[David in NJ]

Your "rabbit trail" is simply YOUR label for your own LACK of understanding in God's written Word. If you had actually studied... God's Word, you would have known what I was talking about. But alas, you show your Biblical illiteracy for all to see.

i have something BETTER = i know what GOD is Talking About = in His Word with the Holy Spirit of Truth

This i thank you for = the Good Laughter from your ad hominen

 

[Ronald Nolette]

i notice that you left out the Eternal Israel that Paul clearly defined beginning in chapter 9.

The HOLY SPIRIT thru Apostle Paul gave the True Definition which you have excluded.................that's called redefined

Well let us look at teh first 5 verses:

Romans 9

King James Version

​

9 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Paul is clearly and definitively talking about natural Israel.

 

[David in NJ]

Well let us look at teh first 5 verses:

Romans 9​

​

King James Version​

​

​

9 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Paul is clearly and definitively talking about natural Israel.

Paul is CLEARLY speaking of Israel according to the "flesh" up to verse 5

Verse 6 Paul now separates Israel of the flesh from the SPIRIT Born Israel

Verse 7 Declares this Truth = Neither, because they are of Abraham are they all children: but, In Isaac thy seed be Called.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Paul is CLEARLY speaking of Israel according to the "flesh" up to verse 5

Verse 6 Paul now separates Israel of the flesh from the SPIRIT Born Israel

Verse 7 Declares this Truth = Neither, because they are of Abraham are they all children: but, In Isaac thy seed be Called.

Isaac does not make spiritual Israel.

Paul is delineating between Isaac (the child of promise) and Ishmael (the child of the flesh or compromise solution).

 

[David in NJ]

Isaac does not make spiritual Israel.

Paul is delineating between Isaac (the child of promise) and Ishmael (the child of the flesh or compromise solution).

Isaac absolutely makes Spiritual Israel for "in Isaac shall your Seed be" only in the Promised Seed is the Israel of God.

Verse 8 - That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God;
but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

Genesis 17:19 Then God said: “No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him.

The promise of a son to Abraham is the foreshadow of the Promise of God = Jesus the Messiah = GOSPEL
Just as Isaac was the promise from God to Abraham so is Christ the Promised Seed from God to all who believe.
All who are Born-Again thru the Promised Seed, which is Christ, these are the sons of God and heirs of Salvation which God promised to Abraham and his seed.

Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise,
24which things are symbolic.
For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—
26but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”

28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
29But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”
31So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

 

[Davy]

i have something BETTER = i know what GOD is Talking About = in His Word with the Holy Spirit of Truth

This i thank you for = the Good Laughter from your ad hominen

Idiotic.

 

[David in NJ]

Idiotic.

LOL - too much funny stuff from you

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Isaac absolutely makes Spiritual Israel for "in Isaac shall your Seed be" only in the Promised Seed is the Israel of God.

And the promised seed is Jacvob who was called ISrael! C'mon man stop wresting the Scriptures.

The promise of a son to Abraham is the foreshadow of the Promise of God = Jesus the Messiah = GOSPEL
Just as Isaac was the promise from God to Abraham so is Christ the Promised Seed from God to all who believe.
All who are Born-Again thru the Promised Seed, which is Christ, these are the sons of God and heirs of Salvation which God promised to Abraham and his seed.

And I agree 100% with that. but that makes us the church, not spiritual Israel.

Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise,
24which things are symbolic.
For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—
26but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”

28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
29But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”
31So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

I agree with these verses also! But your point is?

 

[David in NJ]

And the promised seed is Jacvob who was called ISrael! C'mon man stop wresting the Scriptures.

And I agree 100% with that. but that makes us the church, not spiritual Israel.

I agree with these verses also! But your point is?

You said: "And the promised seed is Jacvob who was called ISrael! C'mon man stop wresting the Scriptures."

God changed Jacob's name to Israel in Genesis 32:22
The man said, “From now on, your name will no longer be Jacob. You will be called Israel, because you have wrestled with God and with men, and you have won.”

God says: "They are not all Israel who are of Israel" - "if you are Christ's Seed then you are Abraham's Seed" = "Israel of God."

God says: the Jews on earth who reject Christ are part of the Jerusalem on earth that rejects Christ = Bondage to sin and death

God says: Jew & Gentile who are in Christ are the Body of Christ = Christ is the Israel of God.

When he arose, he took the young Child/Jesus and His mother by night and departed for Egypt, and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, “Out of Egypt I called My Son.”
Matthew 2:14

 

[Ronald Nolette]

God says: "They are not all Israel who are of Israel" - "if you are Christ's Seed then you are Abraham's Seed" = "Israel of God."

Wrong. this is like saying 2+2=7

As Saved Gentiles we are Abrahams seed according to the promise.

Genesis 12

King James Version

​

12 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Not that we would become spiritual Jews! Paul trashed that absolutely in romans 9:

Romans 9

King James Version

​

9 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

this is all about physical Israel and the remnant within physical Israel.

It is you who are redefining terms and reinterpreting simple passages to make gentiles become spiritual Jews.

 

[David in NJ]

Wrong. this is like saying 2+2=7

As Saved Gentiles we are Abrahams seed according to the promise.

Genesis 12​

​

King James Version​

​

​

12 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Not that we would become spiritual Jews! Paul trashed that absolutely in romans 9:

Romans 9​

​

King James Version​

​

​

9 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

this is all about physical Israel and the remnant within physical Israel.

It is you who are redefining terms and reinterpreting simple passages to make gentiles become spiritual Jews.

You are choosing to only look at selective scripture verses for your belief system which is only part true and then yields to error.

You either believe the Whole Counsel of God or you fight against it.

The Whole Counsel of God is Christ. Christ is the Word, Christ is the Truth and Christ says "Thy word is Truth" - John ch17

You cannot redefine God's words thru your unbelief.

Read again Galatians, 1 Peter and then go back and read ALL of what Paul said in Romans - not just what you select from it.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You are choosing to only look at selective scripture verses for your belief system which is only part true and then yields to error.

You either believe the Whole Counsel of God or you fight against it.

The Whole Counsel of God is Christ. Christ is the Word, Christ is the Truth and Christ says "Thy word is Truth" - John ch17

You cannot redefine God's words thru your unbelief.

Read again Galatians, 1 Peter and then go back and read ALL of what Paul said in Romans - not just what you select from it.

First off you lie when you say I look at Gods word through unbelief.

It is you who through lousy grammar, lack of searching the Greek and allegorizing passages that come to the conclusion that the church is Spiritual Israel.


I accept tthe passages as written and not rewrittne by some covenant theologian

 

[David in NJ]

First off you lie when you say I look at Gods word through unbelief.

It is you who through lousy grammar, lack of searching the Greek and allegorizing passages that come to the conclusion that the church is Spiritual Israel.


I accept tthe passages as written and not rewrittne by some covenant theologian

"They are not all Israel who are of Israel" Romans 9:6

How can you not be a Jew when you are Jew?

What do you say?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

"They are not all Israel who are of Israel" Romans 9:6

How can you not be a Jew when you are Jew?

What do you say?

MY response? I will let paul speak:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Accepting Paul as he wrote and not seek alternative meanings- He is talking about Abraham, Issaac and Jacob! And not Ishamel and Esau as is shown in the passage. I keep that controversial passage in its context and it is no longer controversial.

 

[David in NJ]

MY response? I will let paul speak:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Accepting Paul as he wrote and not seek alternative meanings- He is talking about Abraham, Issaac and Jacob! And not Ishamel and Esau as is shown in the passage. I keep that controversial passage in its context and it is no longer controversial.

Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God:
but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


Who are the children of promise that are counted for the seed?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God:
but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


Who are the children of promise that are counted for the seed?

Read the context. Ishmael is the child of the flesh and Isaac is the child of promise!

Gen 18:

10 And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.

11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.

12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?

13 And the Lord said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?

14 Is any thing too hard for the Lord? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

15 Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh.

​

Genesis 16
Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar. And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the Lord hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai. And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife. ...

22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

See simply by comparing scripture with Scripture we see Isaac is hte child of promise and we do not have to come up with some spiritual reinterpretation saying the church is now spiritual Israel.

 

[David in NJ]

Read the context. Ishmael is the child of the flesh and Isaac is the child of promise!

Gen 18:

10 And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.

11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.

12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?

13 And the Lord said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?

14 Is any thing too hard for the Lord? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

15 Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh.

​

Genesis 16
Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar. And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the Lord hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai. And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife. ...

22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

See simply by comparing scripture with Scripture we see Isaac is hte child of promise and we do not have to come up with some spiritual reinterpretation saying the church is now spiritual Israel.

HOLY SPIRIT says: Galatians 4:21-31

Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise,
which things are symbolic.
For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—
for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—
but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”
So then, brethren, we(Jew & Gentile) are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.