Grace-Haters are incapable of honestly admitting what the (P) in Calvinism really means.

[atpollard]

There is some sort of OSAS argument I saw recently saying you can fall into disbelief and still be saved. According to what is posted above, that is not true.
This talks about being guarded through faith. If we fall into unbelief, we have lost our faith, so that negates that part.

Concerning the man who was a brother, whom Paul ordered expelled from the church for unrepentant sin, whom Paul later instructed he should be welcomed back as a brother ...

was he unsaved, then saved, then unsaved again during his expulsion, then saved again when he was welcomed back?
Does God have children and former children?
Is "born from above" and "a new creation" something that we slip into and out of repeatedly?

Or is it more like the 'prodigal son', who always remained a son of the FATHER and was destined to return home to the Father's waiting arms?

I believe it is the love of God that makes us His children, not our momentary good or bad judgements ... and that same love will irresistibly DRAW us home to OUR Father.
YMMV.

 

[Cooper]

It falls to the POTTER to strike the balance ... not to the clay.

If the pot is faulty, the potter destroys it.
.

 

[Cassandra]

Concerning the man who was a brother, whom Paul ordered expelled from the church for unrepentant sin, whom Paul later instructed he should be welcomed back as a brother ...

was he unsaved, then saved, then unsaved again during his expulsion, then saved again when he was welcomed back?
Is "born from above" and "a new creation" something that we slip into and out of repeatedly?

Or is it more like the 'prodigal son', who always remained a son of the FATHER and was destined to return home to the Father's waiting arms?

I believe it is the love of God that makes us His children, not our momentary good or bad judgements ... and that same love will irresistibly DRAW us home to OUR Father.
YMMV.

The prodigal son came back repentant. The OSAS don't, do they? And don't you think that if someone is drawn back to God, they will feel sorrow for distancing themselves from Him? I would assume that the Draw brings with it some repentance. Does OSAS give you a license to sin?

 

[robert derrick]

The Doctrines of Grace are found in scripture as surely as the doctrine of the Trinity is found in scripture. The phrase does not appear.

There is only one doctrine of Christ pertaining to grace of God: It is for help in time of need to overcome temptation and sin by them seeking to obey Him.

They come boldly to the throne of grace to receive that help, which is sufficient for us to overcome and obey Him.

Grace is not some 'canopy' of protection against judgment of sin,and certainly is not some 'blind', that God cannot see our sin through.

'Doctrines' of grace are therefore lies of man, not found in Scripture. The teaching of grace doesn't even appear in the list of first principles of salvation of Christ in Heb 6:1.

Repentance of dead works is listed, because the grace of Christ is only for them that repent and believe the Gospel and obey Him, even as is the eternal salvation of Jesus.

Jesus' race is not for them that believe in a salvation by faith alone, because they have no such need of grace to overcome sin, because they have no such need of overcoming sin and obeying Him for eternal salvation.

The grace of God is not for OSAS. A made up mystical Princess Grace, called 'unconditional grace, is for them who want to believe they are saved, without obeying Him in the heart and in the body on this earth.

Unconditional Princess Grace is one of the harlots of Mother Mystery the Great.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

was he unsaved, then saved, then unsaved again during his expulsion, then saved again when he was welcomed back?
Does God have children and former children?
Is "born from above" and "a new creation" something that we slip into and out of repeatedly?

Correct, no such "Yo-Yo salvation" In God's PERFECT Word! Apparently
these critics have NEVER had any "children" and NO concept of loving the
disobedient ones. ie:

You place little Joey in the corner for the error of his ways, but you
HATE him (YOUR "son") So Much, that if the house starts ON FIRE,
you just let him sit there and perish! What kind of parent/child
RELATIONSHIP is that, perishing Just Because "he BROKE"
FELLOWSHIP with such an HATEFUL father God's Simple Will!

So GLAD my LOVING/GRACIOUS Father God DOES NOT OPERATE
like these critics. Amen?

They ALSO DENY These 12 DOZEN Of HIS Plain And Clear Scriptures!:

God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST!
God's Eternal Assurance

'nuff said...

 

[Cassandra]

Otra vez, the prodigal son was repentant. You can not be serious with the "God I'm sorry, Let's go party" mindset can you? God loves everyone. That stuff about little Joey, the corner, and not saving your son is the house is on fire, is kinda rubbish.

Do you change when you become a Christian? Can I leave the bar, ask God to save me, and go back for another brewski, secure in the knowledge that I am saved?

If I get saved , and I get in a fight, and kill the person I am fighting, and the cops show up and shoot me, and I die, am I saved?

 

[PinSeeker]

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death...

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died ~ more than that, who was raised ~ who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written,

'For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.'
​

No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

[Romans 8, emphasis mine]

If we have been saved by the Lord, nothing ~ absolutely nothing, even we ourselves, because we are a part of creation, too ~ can separate us from His love. We may think (or feel like) we have lost our salvation from time to time, or God may, in His discipline (which He gives to those He loves) may take away His countenance for a time. But nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Nothing.

"He Who began a good work in us will bring it to completion at the day of Christ."

[Philippians 1:6, emphasis mine]

"For all the promises of God find their Yes in (Christ Jesus). That is why it is through (Christ) that we utter our Amen to God for His glory" (2 Corinthians 1:20, emphasis mine). All of them.

Grace and peace.

 

[robert derrick]

Otra vez, the prodigal son was repentant. You can not be serious with the "God I'm sorry, Let's go party" mindset can you? God loves everyone. That stuff about little Joey, the corner, and not saving your son is the house is on fire, is kinda rubbish.

Do you change when you become a Christian? Can I leave the bar, ask God to save me, and go back for another brewski, secure in the knowledge that I am saved?

If I get saved , and I get in a fight, and kill the person I am fighting, and the cops show up and shoot me, and I die, am I saved?

The habit of false doctrinaires is to create as many false scenarios as they need, in order to prop up the doctrines they create without Scripture.

 

[robert derrick]

Correct, no such "Yo-Yo salvation" In God's PERFECT Word! Apparently
these critics have NEVER had any "children" and NO concept of loving the
disobedient ones. ie:

You place little Joey in the corner for the error of his ways, but you
HATE him (YOUR "son") So Much, that if the house starts ON FIRE,
you just let him sit there and perish! What kind of parent/child
RELATIONSHIP is that, perishing Just Because "he BROKE"
FELLOWSHIP with such an HATEFUL father God's Simple Will!

So GLAD my LOVING/GRACIOUS Father God DOES NOT OPERATE
like these critics. Amen?

They ALSO DENY These 12 DOZEN Of HIS Plain And Clear Scriptures!:

God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST!
God's Eternal Assurance

'nuff said...

NEVER had any "children" and NO concept of loving the disobedient ones.

Yea, the bad old Lord God needed some instruction from the unconditional gracers of today, then He wouldn't have commanded the rebellious kids to be stoned at the request of the parents.

A more accurate scenario is what kind of father would allow his dear little children to run amok in his house, to the point of burning it down, and then give them hugs with assurances of still 'loving' them. Even though they did brake a little 'fellowship' with him.

Unconditional Mother Grace is the kind that would demand mercy from the judge for her poor little boy that raped and murdered another little girl, with no repentance in sight to speak of.

So GLAD my LOVING/GRACIOUS Father God DOES NOT OPERATE like these critics.

They open a thread about all the 'grace haters', that dare to disagree with them, and then cry like babies about the 'critics' that disprove their false doctrine.

OSAS is the ultimate happy hippy new age religion of 'divineness' with no judgment allowed. It's sickening and needs vomiting.

 

[PinSeeker]

"The habit of false doctrinaires is to create as many false scenarios as they need, in order to prop up the doctrines they create without Scripture."

This is absolute rubbish. Illustrations are good things, very useful from time to time. Jesus used them; today we call them parables

That being said, I'd like to hear someone of your persuasion, though, respond to my post 647 above, though. That would be interesting.

Grace and peace.

 

[robert derrick]

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death...

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died ~ more than that, who was raised ~ who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written,

'For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.'
​

No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

[Romans 8, emphasis mine]

If we have been saved by the Lord, nothing ~ absolutely nothing, even we ourselves, because we are a part of creation, too ~ can separate us from His love. We may think (or feel like) we have lost our salvation from time to time, or God may, in His discipline (which He gives to those He loves) may take away His countenance for a time. But nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Nothing.

"He Who began a good work in us will bring it to completion at the day of Christ."

[Philippians 1:6, emphasis mine]

"For all the promises of God find their Yes in (Christ Jesus). That is why it is through (Christ) that we utter our Amen to God for His glory" (2 Corinthians 1:20, emphasis mine). All of them.

Grace and peace.

"For all the promises of God find their Yes in (Christ Jesus).
Yes! I promise you will sin, and Yes! I promise not to see it!

Not even sin can separate OSAS from their grace, since she won't allow God to see them.

Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Our God will not hide His eyes from our sins, but will hide Himself from us and will not hear us, who separated ourselves from Him by our iniquities.

The god of OSAS is another god entirely, who says Yes! to all things, whether sinful or devilish.

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Unconditional grace is delusional peace.

I'd like to hear someone of your persuasion.

My persuasion is certainly not your persuasion and vica versa.

This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

My persuasion says go and sin no more, your's says sin go on and sin, it is no more seen.

 

[PinSeeker]

Otra vez, the prodigal son was repentant.

Ah, but the father was waiting for the prodigal sun to return ever since he had left, and ran out to meet him, and... had decided to celebrate even before the son had a chance to repent outwardly...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[robert derrick]

Ah, but the father was waiting for the prodigal sun to return ever since he had left, and ran out to meet him, and... had decided to celebrate even before the son had a chance to repent outwardly.

He repented in the pig trough, when he came to himself. Which was why he was walking to the Father and no longer away from His house.

The open declaration of OSAS: no need for outward repentance.

The strong delusion of OSAS is to believe they need no outward repentance of the body, so long as they believe in their salvation in the heart.

The faith of the heart has nothing to do with the deeds of the body: faith without works of worthy of repentance is dead, being alone.

 

[PinSeeker]

"For all the promises of God find their Yes in (Christ Jesus).
Yes! I promise you will sin, and Yes! I promise not to see it!

Oh, my goodness. No, the promise is that nothing can separate those of us in Christ Jesus from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus. LOL!

Not even sin can separate OSAS from their grace, since she won't allow God to see them.

This makes no sense: "Not even sin can separate OSAS from their grace..." What??? "since she won't allow God to see them" What??? You're trying to personify "OSAS"? "She" won't allow God to see "them"... who is the "them" you are referring to here??? His promises??? My goodness.

Unconditional grace is delusional peace.

Well, it is a great peace, for sure. A peace that passes all understanding, actually. Yes, it isn't up to me (or any of us who are in Christ) to keep the peace. We can certainly praise and thank the Lord for that.

Grace and peace to you, Robert.

 

[PinSeeker]

He repented in the pig trough, when he came to himself. Which was why he was walking to the Father and no longer away from His house.

But the father was waiting for him long before that. You think the father heard the son in the pig trough? LOL! No...

The open declaration of OSAS: no need for outward repentance.

Not in any shape, form, or fashion. Repentance ~ continual repentance for sin, because we still can't help but sin, at least from time to time... <snicker> ~ is the inevitable result of having been given salvation.

The strong delusion of OSAS is to believe they need no outward repentance of the body, so long as they believe in their salvation in the heart.

Yeah, again, absolutely not. Read the beatitudes of Matthew 5. The Christian life is a life of repentance.

The faith of the heart has nothing to do with the deeds of the body: faith without works of worthy of repentance is dead, being alone.

This is totally not what James is saying in chapter 2 of his epistle. What he is saying is, if one says he has faith, but there are no works to show it ~ this is right after he says, "be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror. For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing" ~ then there is no faith at all, it is dead. True faith produces good works; good works are the natural outpouring of true faith.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Curtis]

The Doctrines of Grace are found in scripture as surely as the doctrine of the Trinity is found in scripture. The phrase does not appear.

Grace is biblical.

Calvin’s version of grace is not - and Calvinism is an insult to Gods character and nature.

 

[PinSeeker]

Grace is biblical.

Absolutely. And John Calvin's understanding of God's grace is, well, correct. Once given, it cannot be lost, because it is God, by His Spirit, in His power, Who maintains it in the person and, in the words of Paul, brings this good work to completion at the day of Christ, or in the words of Peter is an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for us, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Now, I don't really like the language "once saved, always saved," because I think it is a little clumsy. But we cannot lose our salvation once it has been granted us. It is what it is.

What's puzzling to me is how some seem to think that we have to be "re-saved"... possibly over and over and over... and over and over and over and over... and over and over again. You know, depending on how much more we sin... Thanks be to God, such is not the case.

Calvin’s version of grace is not - and Calvinism is an insult to Gods character and nature.

Well, there's such a thing called hyper-Calvinism, and that may be what you're really reacting to, possibly without even realizing it. Hyper-Calvinism is not Calvinism at all, but only a caricature of it.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Cassandra]

Ah, but the father was waiting for the prodigal sun to return ever since he had left, and ran out to meet him, and... had decided to celebrate even before the son had a chance to repent outwardly...

Grace and peace to you.

No one said the father didn't love him or wasn't waiting for him. The son had to come back, to repent, to be with his father again.

 

[PinSeeker]

My persuasion is certainly not your persuasion and vica versa.

Yes, I'm... well aware of that. Painfully aware...

My persuasion says go and sin no more...

Now, this is a little different subject than the one at hand, but do you think it's possible to be sinless in this life? You know, to have perfectly repented of all your sin, and then to never sin again? In this life?

yours says sin go on and sin, it is no more seen.

Absolutely not. But only, as John puts it, that if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

See, this is the problem; the doctrines or beliefs that some disagree with they twist (purposely or not I'm not sure) into something they are most assuredly not. That's a problem.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

No one said the father didn't love him or wasn't waiting for him. The son had to come back, to repent, to be with his father again.

He never actually repented to the father. You say, "at the pig trough." Well, the father wasn't there when the son said this (to himself). The point of the parable is that the father never turned his back on the son, was going to forgive the son's sin against him, and was going to welcome the son back home no matter what. This is what the whole of Luke 15 (and the two parables immediately preceding this one) is about. Jesus tells these parables ~ surely you know ~ to the Pharisees, who were grumbling about Jesus receiving sinners and even eating with them; the Pharisees thought these "sinners" were unworthy. And in this parable, the older brother is representative of the Pharisees.

Grace and peace to you.