Grace-Haters are incapable of honestly admitting what the (P) in Calvinism really means.

[atpollard]

There is only one doctrine of Christ pertaining to grace of God: It is for help in time of need to overcome temptation and sin by them seeking to obey Him.

They come boldly to the throne of grace to receive that help, which is sufficient for us to overcome and obey Him.

Grace is not some 'canopy' of protection against judgment of sin,and certainly is not some 'blind', that God cannot see our sin through.

'Doctrines' of grace are therefore lies of man, not found in Scripture. The teaching of grace doesn't even appear in the list of first principles of salvation of Christ in Heb 6:1.

Repentance of dead works is listed, because the grace of Christ is only for them that repent and believe the Gospel and obey Him, even as is the eternal salvation of Jesus.

Jesus' race is not for them that believe in a salvation by faith alone, because they have no such need of grace to overcome sin, because they have no such need of overcoming sin and obeying Him for eternal salvation.

The grace of God is not for OSAS. A made up mystical Princess Grace, called 'unconditional grace, is for them who want to believe they are saved, without obeying Him in the heart and in the body on this earth.

Unconditional Princess Grace is one of the harlots of Mother Mystery the Great.

Quite the strawman you have built there.
Nobody believes what you claim.

 

[atpollard]

Otra vez, the prodigal son was repentant. You can not be serious with the "God I'm sorry, Let's go party" mindset can you? God loves everyone. That stuff about little Joey, the corner, and not saving your son is the house is on fire, is kinda rubbish.

Do you change when you become a Christian? Can I leave the bar, ask God to save me, and go back for another brewski, secure in the knowledge that I am saved?

If I get saved , and I get in a fight, and kill the person I am fighting, and the cops show up and shoot me, and I die, am I saved?

Are these situations that you (or ANY Christian) actually struggles with?
Who believes what you seem to be ranting against?
(Nobody that I know.)

 

[Cooper]

[Romans 3:10 NKJV]
As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;

… all of the pots are faulty; that’s why Jesus came to save “whosoever” (John 3)

And most of the pots, mainly those who devise their own faith system or none at all, remain faulty until the day of their destruction.
.

 

[Cooper]

As I said, we can agree to disagree. None of the passages you have cited refute what I have said; they actually support my statements. And those passages most certainly don't conflict with the passages I have cited (2 John 2:19, Jeremiah 17:9).

Grace and peace to you.

The scriptures you posted warn of eternal destruction, namely the destruction of those who depart from the path of righteousness. Take heed.
.

 

[Cassandra]

Are these situations that you (or ANY Christian) actually struggles with?
Who believes what you seem to be ranting against?
(Nobody that I know.)

It is a what if situation for an osas.

 

[NewMusic]

These are just a few Scriptures speaking of them that were saved and turned from God, and their latter end is worse than before Salvation:

(Heb 6:4-8) They tasted of the heavenly gift. They crucified Christ afresh. They are rejected and burned as thorns, even as Jesus prophesied of branches that abide not in Him. (John 15) They so turn from God, that it is become impossible for them to repent and are only awaiting a certain fearful judgment to come. (Heb 10:27)

I edited out the majority of Robert's post to address just this one thing :

Robert, your arguments are good in this thread up to page 7.. I could not read any more, but need to bring this to everybody's attention:

Hebrews 6 and 10 are part of your arguments, and I think these passages are far different than the others you use, because Hebrews 6 and 10 are not about fleshly sins.

I do acknowledge that they are extreme and valid arguments against once saved always saved. It's just that everyone should be aware that apostasy is in view here which is different than fleshly sins.

Hebrews 6 (and by extension to chapter 10) is addressed to the Hebrew Christians that were close to forsaking Jesus and turning to a different religion (Judaism) due to a new wave of persecution, and thus holding Christ up to contempt.

The sin addressed in Hebrews 6 is apostasy, which is far different than fleshly sins.

Definition of apostasy:
noun, plural a·pos·ta·sies.
-- a total desertion of or departure from one's religion, principles, party, cause, etc.

Fornicating, masturbating, getting drunk, gossiping, all fleshly SINS (they are indeed sins) can be repented of every day, as many as 70 times 7 per day. And must be repented of.

But turning away from Christ to a different religion is apostasy (and a far greater evil than fleshly sins) which is what the writer of Hebrews is addressing.

The total lack of hope and despair that comes from turning from Christ and spurning the Gospel of Grace as is recorded in Hebrews 10 is a very fearful thing, but it is not fleshly sins that is being addressed here. Otherwise what Jesus proclaimed and taught about never forsaking His own, and forgiving sins as often as the penitent asks for forgiveness, would be nullified.

 

[robert derrick]

They never believed, is the standard excuse of Calvinists. Point is, it is impossible to fall into unbelief if you have never believed.
.

True.

I.e. Adam never believed the Lord that made Him. Not even as a living soul, after He breathed the Spirit of life into him.

Both Adam and Eve were never 'real' believers in the garden. That's what Eve was decieved about. She only thought she believed.

Lucifer never believed either, before he was cast down out of heaven to become Satan.

And Jesus chose for an apostle someone who was only thinking he was believing, but never really did: Judas Iscariot.

OSAS is the strong delusion of them that know they really really believe, until they find themselves in sin again, and they begin to wonder if they ever really really believed in the first place.

OSAS is a nothing but a carnal mind game for the children of disobedience.

 

[robert derrick]

Okay, yeah, don't do that. I would respectfully ask that, if you are going to have a conversation with me, only attribute to me what I have said. Or possibly what I have agreed with.


Yes, but the parable is not about his repentance or lack thereof.


Yeah, so in view of the previous answer above, no, it doesn't mean that. At all.


See above.

Grace and peace to you.

Only attribute to me what I have said.

Which is why I asked you about OSAS doctrine from others.

Does God no longer see our sins when saved, because the blood covers them from His sight?

They say they are forgiven of all sins past, present, and future at first being saved, and that though they will continue in sin, they have pre-forgiveness before commission.

 

[robert derrick]

Yes, it most certainly is. It is about repenting and coming home. you cannot say that it does not say that when it does.

OSAS can say whatever they like to say.

Their unconditional salvation doesn't let sin get in the way, why should it let Scripture?

 

[robert derrick]

Adam was turned out of the Garden because he disobeyed God. Simple. No eternal security there. So be warned. God is not to be mocked. We worship a righteous God, and there cannot be any unrighteousness in His presence. We are saved by the Grace of God, and there it ends. He will forgive the penitent sinner, but after salvation it is our responsibility and duty to live a life that is pleasing to Him, and more than that, to live a life that brings honour and glory to His name. We are His witnesses, a light in a world of darkness and people watch us. If we do the same as Adam did, our end will be the same as his.
.

but after salvation it is our responsibility and duty

All that is well and good, but in the OSAS kingdom it is heresy to even speak of such responsibility, duty, cooperation, etc...in the same sentence as salvation.

With them unconditional means unconditional!

 

[robert derrick]

Rubbish.

(2Pe 2:20-21) For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

(2Pe 3:17) Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

(Eze 18:24) But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

(Eze 3:20-21) Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

(Gal 1:6) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

(Gal 4:9) But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
.

Well, sure, but even as they really didn't believe God, but only thought they did for a while, neither did they really know God, but only thought they did. And they only thought they had escaped the pollutions of the world, and only thought they had tasted the heavenly gift.

You see, we must read Scripture through the OSAS lens: when Scripture speaks of anyone believing, knowing, tasting, escaping etc...and then turning away, Scripture is really saying they only thought they did and only appeared to be doing so.

OSAS is nothing but a twisted mind game with salvation of God. It's bent.

 

[robert derrick]

"If the pot is faulty, the potter destroys it."

As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;… all of the pots are faulty; that’s why Jesus came to save “whosoever” (John 3)

I.e. there is none righteous, no, not one in the kingdom of OSAS. They are all faulty pots.

And so to clarify, OSAS believers are unconditionally saved faulty pots.

 

[robert derrick]

Well the fate of backsliders can be a couple of different things, really, depending on what the state of their heart actually is. As Jeremiah says: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?" (Jeremiah 17:9) So to what you're saying here, I would say those people may have thought they believed, but were never really believers in the first place.

I.e. in the OSAS kingdom their hearts are still above all deceitful and desperately sick.

Which is why some of them only thought they believed, and others still do. So far.

The deceitful heart of OSAS daily asks itself, Do I really believe? Or do I only think I really believe?

Which of course is really sick.

 

[robert derrick]

Quite the strawman you have built there.
Nobody believes what you claim.

I do.

So, do you really believe, or are you only one that thinks you really believe?

How would you know the difference, since your heart is so deceitful and desperately sick?

 

[robert derrick]

I edited out the majority of Robert's post to address just this one thing :

Robert, your arguments are good in this thread up to page 7.. I could not read any more, but need to bring this to everybody's attention:

Hebrews 6 and 10 are part of your arguments, and I think these passages are far different than the others you use, because Hebrews 6 and 10 are not about fleshly sins.

I do acknowledge that they are extreme and valid arguments against once saved always saved. It's just that everyone should be aware that apostasy is in view here which is different than fleshly sins.

Hebrews 6 (and by extension to chapter 10) is addressed to the Hebrew Christians that were close to forsaking Jesus and turning to a different religion (Judaism) due to a new wave of persecution, and thus holding Christ up to contempt.

The sin addressed in Hebrews 6 is apostasy, which is far different than fleshly sins.

Definition of apostasy:
noun, plural a·pos·ta·sies.
-- a total desertion of or departure from one's religion, principles, party, cause, etc.

Fornicating, masturbating, getting drunk, gossiping, all fleshly SINS (they are indeed sins) can be repented of every day, as many as 70 times 7 per day. And must be repented of.

But turning away from Christ to a different religion is apostasy (and a far greater evil than fleshly sins) which is what the writer of Hebrews is addressing.

The total lack of hope and despair that comes from turning from Christ and spurning the Gospel of Grace as is recorded in Hebrews 10 is a very fearful thing, but it is not fleshly sins that is being addressed here. Otherwise what Jesus proclaimed and taught about never forsaking His own, and forgiving sins as often as the penitent asks for forgiveness, would be nullified.

I appreciate your honest effort here, but you need to provide Scripture for making difference between apostacy and returning to riotous living.

So far, all you offer is your interpretation, which I don't see.

Scriptural apostacy is just of the heart and mind but is also of the body and life on earth:

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections.

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient.

We see there is no distinction between apostacy of mind vs body: God gives people over to their own mind full of vain imagination, to do the filthy things of the world, and also to become reprobate unto every good work.

They cease doing any good and the righteousness of God, and return to live as they please with the flesh, no more pleasing God in any way.

This is the state of putting Christ to an open shame, crucifying Him afresh by open sin without shame, so that God gives up on us, and it is impossible then to even repent:

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost...If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance.

Otherwise what Jesus proclaimed and taught about never forsaking His own, and forgiving sins as often as the penitent asks for forgiveness, would be nullified.

The error here is that apostacy is the condition where God no longer draws us to confession and repentance. Being convicted of sin and drawn to repentance is the grace of God, Who has yet to give up on us, even after 70 x 7 times. No man confesses sin from the heart, except the Spirit convicts the heart and draws to Jesus Christ for forgiveness and washing clean of sin:

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him.

The total lack of hope and despair.

Nothing about this says anything of having no hope and being in despair. They have no more hope in Christ, but certainly can have their hope in a false christ, and have nothing to despair about. Which of course is the definition of unconditional grace and salvation.

There are plenty of people in vile affections being taught that God does not judge them for it. In fact, He doesn't even see it because of 'grace'.

Nothing in Scripture says the reprobate from God is crying in despair of their filthy living. They could be just as happy as a lark in 'celebrating' their 'grace'.

But turning away from Christ to a different religion.

And the different religion is what they still call Christianity. Once again, no Scripture speaks of going to a 'different religion', but only turning from God to such a degree of vain imagination in the mind and filthiness of the flesh, that He gives up on them and turns them over to what their souls truly lust after.

Hebrews 6 (and by extension to chapter 10) is addressed to the Hebrew Christians that were close to forsaking Jesus and turning to a different religion (Judaism) due to a new wave of persecution, and thus holding Christ up to contempt.

While the book is called Hebrews by man, it does not mean the book nor any part was only addressing 'Hebrews Christians'. I do not ascribe to that way of reading Scripture. Every part and Scripture of the NT is written by God to me, and I read it as such. There are no Hebrew, Jewish, Gentile Christians, but only Christians that obey Jesus as Lord, and them that turn back from doing so.

Now, there was no doubt persecution, but that would only be one cause for the greater error: turning back from the righteousness and love of Christ to the sins and enmity of the world with strong delusion of a reprobate mind.

The result being a once fruitful ground becoming rejected thorns and briers. The lead into this state is Heb 5, where certain babies were refusing to grow up and go on to perfection, and so became castaways, like the ancient practice of exposure of the rejected child.

Sinning willfully in Heb 10 is just that: willfully sinning by doing the evil we know not to do, and not doing the good we know to do. Nothing in Hebrews even hints at the cause being persecution, or that it is only a warning not to go to false religion, but is all about not returning to the old life of sin, resurrecting the old man of the corrupt heart.

The only cause for it mentioned in Scripture is of babies refusing to grow up, and never moving on from continual repentance of dead works, that continue to show themselves unrepented time and time and time again. Maybe 70 x 70 times.

 

[atpollard]

It is a what if situation for an osas.

a.k.a. "a strawman"

 

[atpollard]

I.e. there is none righteous, no, not one in the kingdom of OSAS. They are all faulty pots.

And so to clarify, OSAS believers are unconditionally saved faulty pots.

Does it not concern you even a little that you use human words to refute direct quotes from scripture in an effort to "prove" your opinions true?

 

[Cassandra]

a.k.a. "a strawman"

So you can't answer it then? Your answer should be I would think. "Oh yes. Because OSAS '

 

[atpollard]

So you can't answer it then? Your answer should be I would think. "Oh yes. Because OSAS '

There is no point in "answering" a what-if that does not exist:

What if men were saved without Jesus Christ?
... irrelevant speculation about an impossibility that can never exist.

What if men are saved and continue living an unrepentant, reprobate lifestyle?
... irrelevant speculation about an impossibility that can never exist; when God saves us, we are transformed. One cannot be "born from above" and a "new creation" and yet still be completely unchanged and walking in the old lifestyle. That is not what Preservation of the Saints / Perseverance of the Saints [the "P" of TULIP] teaches and not what Calvinists and the Reformed and Particular Baptists (like myself) believe and teach. Your parody of the Bible that YOU mislabel as OSAS (once saved always saved) and present "what if's" involving unsaved people living reprobate lifestyles that you claim others call saved has no meaningful response except one: LIES and DAMNABLE LIES.

Good luck living a life that meets God's standard of righteousness so that you have no need of God to forgive any trasgression after your initial baptism or to ever restore you from falling short of the mark. The rest of us will TRUST that "he who began a good work in [us] will carry it on to completion" [Philippians 1:6] ... the essence of Perseverance of the Saints and the true meaning of "Once God saves you, you remain saved forever" (OSAS for short).

 

[robert derrick]

Does it not concern you even a little that you use human words to refute direct quotes from scripture in an effort to "prove" your opinions true?

You're the ones claiming deceitful hearts and flawed pots, which obviously does not concern you even a little, and so neither am I concerned about agreeing with you. While you 'celebrate' a false grace, you blind yourselves to the truth.

By all you say, you show that OSAS is for sinners who want to believe but not obey Jesus. Simple.

But for them that obey Him, they are eternally saved with a pure heart in a new uncorrupted pot. Simple again.

They work out their salvation in the fear of the Lord by keeping the heart pure, the mind clean, and the pot uncorrupted, until the day of resurrection with incorruptible pot and immortality of heart, mind, and soul.

Since OSAS believes in no works of salvation, then they have no need to work out anything, nor to fear of the Lord an so keep pure hearts and unflawed lives. Simple thrice.