Grace-Haters are incapable of honestly admitting what the (P) in Calvinism really means.

[robert derrick]

Good luck living a life that meets God's standard of righteousness.

And here we are again, straight from the mouth of the dragon.

Mocking living for Jesus according to God's standard of righteousness.

OSAS has no clue what they are saying, in all their haste to defend their sins and not be chastised for it, but rather to glory in their blind grace that sees no sin.

What is their response to exhortation to obey Him and go, and sin no more?

LIES and DAMNABLE LIES.

 

[PinSeeker]

The scriptures you posted warn of eternal destruction, namely the destruction of those who depart from the path of righteousness.

No, they don't. I mean, that would be the ultimate result, or fate (destruction, in the sense of ruination) for unbelievers, for sure. But both 2 John 2:19 and Jeremiah 17:9 have immediately in view the state of human beings in this world, in their mortal lives, not in the age to come (eternity).

Take heed..

Certainly. Thank you. And the very same to you.

I.e. in the OSAS kingdom their hearts are still above all deceitful and desperately sick.

Absolutely they are, in this life. Absolutely. But in this "OSAS kingdom" they ~ we ~ are aware of and cognizant of the fact that their ~ our ~ hearts are deceitful and desperately sick and in desperate need of God's mercy and compassion... and a Savior and His righteousness.

The deceitful heart of OSAS daily asks itself, Do I really believe? Or do I only think I really believe? Which of course is really sick.

Well no, the heart of the "OSAS" daily cries Abba Father ~ because it has received the Spirit of adoption as sons (Romans 8:15) ~ prompting him/her to continually cry to God, Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!" But in this "OSAS kingdom," if they truly have faith ~ which is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8) ~ then they have assurance from God Himself. This is the Biblical definition of faith (Hebrews 10:19-23, 11:1).

So my question to you, Robert (and all those who reject "OSAS," how many times have you been saved, Robert? You know, since a Christian apparently has to be saved over and over and over again? That is, of course, a rhetorical question since having to be saved by God more than once is a wholly unscriptural idea.

And one more thing:

About this oft-repeated "unconditionally saved" thing: Nobody is claiming unconditional salvation. Nobody. Salvation is absolutely conditional, but on one thing and one thing only: the will of God the Father. This is exactly what Paul says, that "(God) says... 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion'... (s)o then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

The scriptural concept, rightly championed by Augustine and Calvin and many others since (because of the wrongful assertions of Pelagius and Arminius and many others since), is unconditional election, meaning that who God elects unto salvation is not conditional on anything that person may or may not do ~ not on the basis of works, so that no one may boast ~ which is exactly what Paul says in Ephesians 2.

Whether intentional or unintentional, the conflation of concepts to come up with "unconditional salvation" should be stopped.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Cooper]

No, they don't. I mean, that would be the ultimate result, or fate (destruction, in the sense of ruination) for unbelievers, for sure. But both 2 John 2:19 and Jeremiah 17:9 have immediately in view the state of human beings in this world, in their mortal lives, not in the age to come (eternity).


Certainly. Thank you. And the very same to you.


Absolutely they are, in this life. Absolutely. But in this "OSAS kingdom" they ~ we ~ are aware of and cognizant of the fact that their ~ our ~ hearts are deceitful and desperately sick and in desperate need of God's mercy and compassion... and a Savior and His righteousness.


Well no, the heart of the "OSAS" daily cries Abba Father ~ because it has received the Spirit of adoption as sons (Romans 8:15) ~ prompting him/her to continually cry to God, Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!" But in this "OSAS kingdom," if they truly have faith ~ which is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8) ~ then they have assurance from God Himself. This is the Biblical definition of faith (Hebrews 10:19-23, 11:1).

So my question to you, Robert (and all those who reject "OSAS," how many times have you been saved, Robert? You know, since a Christian apparently has to be saved over and over and over again? That is, of course, a rhetorical question since having to be saved by God more than once is a wholly unscriptural idea.

And one more thing:

About this oft-repeated "unconditionally saved" thing: Nobody is claiming unconditional salvation. Nobody. Salvation is absolutely conditional, but on one thing and one thing only: the will of God the Father. This is exactly what Paul says, that "(God) says... 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion'... (s)o then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

The scriptural concept, rightly championed by Augustine and Calvin and many others since (because of the wrongful assertions of Pelagius and Arminius and many others since), is unconditional election, meaning that who God elects unto salvation is not conditional on anything that person may or may not do ~ not on the basis of works, so that no one may boast ~ which is exactly what Paul says in Ephesians 2.

Whether intentional or unintentional, the conflation of concepts to come up with "unconditional salvation" should be stopped.

Grace and peace to you.

~~
You quoted 1 John 2:19 and Jeremiah 17:9 in your defence of OSAS, however those two verses describe Calvinism perfectly. Good on you for being honest. Those who follow your religion (i.e. have gone out from the teaching of the early Church) are doomed to eternal condemnation, as can be seen in the accompanying exposition on the two verses you quoted. My comment earlier was for you to "take heed" which you foolishly brushed aside. Now see the expositions below.

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But by going out they made it plain that none of them belongs to us. (NRSV)

EXPOSITION
out from us — from our Christian communion. Not necessarily a formal secession or going out: thus Rome has spiritually gone out, though formally still of the Christian Church.

not of us — by spiritual fellowship (1Jn_1:3). “They are like bad humors in the body of Christ, the Church: when they are vomited out, then the body is relieved; the body of Christ is now still under treatment, and has not yet attained the perfect soundness which it shall have only at the resurrection” [Augustine, Ten Homilies on the First Epistle of John, Homily 3.4].

~~~~~~~~~~

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (NRSV)

EXPOSITION
deceitful — from a root, “supplanting,” “tripping up insidiously by the heel,” from which Jacob (Hos_12:3) took his name. In speaking of the Jews’ deceit of heart, he appropriately uses a term alluding to their forefather, whose deceit, but not whose faith, they followed. His “supplanting” was in order to obtain Jehovah’s blessing. They plant Jehovah for “trust in man” (Jer_17:5), and then think to deceive God, as if it could escape His notice, that it is in man, not in Him, they trust.

desperately wicked — “incurable” (Mic_1:9). Trust in one’s own heart is as foolish as in our fellow man (Pro_28:26).

Source: Jameson-Fausset-Brown.

 

[robert derrick]

"I.e. in the OSAS kingdom their hearts are still deceitful and desperately sick."

Absolutely they are, in this life. Absolutely. But in this "OSAS kingdom" they ~ we ~ are aware of and cognizant of the fact that their ~ our ~ hearts are deceitful and desperately sick and in desperate need of God's mercy and compassion... and a Savior and His righteousness.

This is the kind of gooey grace that Jesus spues out.

OSAS applies to themselves the Scripture that condemns the hearts of unbelieving transgressors. It does not even occur to them, that they are openly condemning their own hearts.

Those who's hearts have not been changed from deceitful and sick to pure and holy are not saved.

To claim to have such a wicked heart is to walk around saying "I am not saved!"

 

[Cassandra]

There is no point in "answering" a what-if that does not exist:

What if men were saved without Jesus Christ?
... irrelevant speculation about an impossibility that can never exist.

What if men are saved and continue living an unrepentant, reprobate lifestyle?
... irrelevant speculation about an impossibility that can never exist; when God saves us, we are transformed. One cannot be "born from above" and a "new creation" and yet still be completely unchanged and walking in the old lifestyle. That is not what Preservation of the Saints / Perseverance of the Saints [the "P" of TULIP] teaches and not what Calvinists and the Reformed and Particular Baptists (like myself) believe and teach. Your parody of the Bible that YOU mislabel as OSAS (once saved always saved) and present "what if's" involving unsaved people living reprobate lifestyles that you claim others call saved has no meaningful response except one: LIES and DAMNABLE LIES.

Good luck living a life that meets God's standard of righteousness so that you have no need of God to forgive any trasgression after your initial baptism or to ever restore you from falling short of the mark. The rest of us will TRUST that "he who began a good work in [us] will carry it on to completion" [Philippians 1:6] ... the essence of Perseverance of the Saints and the true meaning of "Once God saves you, you remain saved forever" (OSAS for short).

I trust the Lord, and I love Him. I don't want to do anything to hurt Him, but i do.I ask the Lord to forgive a lot. A bad thought, unkind word, You don't? Wow
~We can come boldly before the throne of grace, but we have to come... And I trust Him completely to forgive. Doesn't he ask you to pray 'Forgive us our debts", or do you not say that part?

And quit calling me a liar. /you don't need to come at me all snotz just because I don't agree with you.I never called you a liar. Incorrect, misinformed, sure, but not a liar. How can you lie about something you believe to be true?

 

[amigo de christo]

True.

I.e. Adam never believed the Lord that made Him. Not even as a living soul, after He breathed the Spirit of life into him.

Both Adam and Eve were never 'real' believers in the garden. That's what Eve was decieved about. She only thought she believed.

Lucifer never believed either, before he was cast down out of heaven to become Satan.

And Jesus chose for an apostle someone who was only thinking he was believing, but never really did: Judas Iscariot.

OSAS is the strong delusion of them that know they really really believe, until they find themselves in sin again, and they begin to wonder if they ever really really believed in the first place.

OSAS is a nothing but a carnal mind game for the children of disobedience.

Lucifer saw GOD , how could he try and overthrow something or someone HE did not beleive in . HE KNEW .
Adam talked with GOD , so he KNEW TOO . Even the devils believe and do tremble .
But wilt thou know o man , that faith without works is dead .

 

[robert derrick]

There is no human perfection in this world, but there is Christian perfectness of the saints.

Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Double-minded Christians are them that know to do good, and yet do it not, because they have yet to purify their hearts of the lust of the world.

They have perpetually besetting sin, because their minds are yet at war with the law of sin in their minds.

They have not yet taken the offensive against the law of sin by the sword of the Spirit and law of Christ. They are in a continuing defensive struggle against sin in the mind, which allows lust in the heart, and so commits sins of the body.

(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds)

Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

The pure heart and clean mind undefiled with any thought of disobedience to Christ cannot sin the body, because no thought of it is allowed no resting place in the mind. Like the birds chased away from the sacrifice of Abraham to God: they have no hold over the heart.

Christian perfection is simply answering the call of the saints to overcome all evil with good, which warfare begins in the heart and the mind, to tear down and cast out and banish every thought of sin and of disobedience to Christ, so that the law of sin in the flesh has no more dominion over the mind, and lust has no place in the heart.

Christian perfecting is to purify our hearts and cleanse our minds of any thought of sin whatsoever, and guard our hearts and minds against them returning, so that we cannot sin, because we have no thought nor desire to do so:

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

They don't just give lip-service to 'hating' sin, simply because they hate it's results: they destroy sin in the heart and mind, so that they don't do it with the body.

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

OSAS at best is Christianity of the doubleminded, and at worst it is just open hypocrisy. Believing in salvation by faith alone with no responsibility nor work of obedience for eternal salvation, will never purify the heart and cleanse the mind of sinful wishing, simply because it is unnecessary for salvation and even called heresy to unconditional salvation.

Form day one, they are taught no need to work out their salvation that they may obtain it in the end, but rather faith alone will suffice, and grace will 'cover' the rest.

The pure heart and clean mind undefiled by thought and desire of sin cannot sin in the body. It's no more possible for the perfecting Christian to openly sin, than it is for the devil to tell the truth: they are anathema to one another. There is no truth in the devil, therefore all lies are his, and there is no lust in the heart and lie in the mind of the saints, therefore no sins are theirs to commit.

Such Christians going on to perfection don't sin with the body, because they have learned obedience begins in the heart and the mind: They have learned to tear down any thought of sin and quench every dart of the devil, and to keep it so.

We bring our bodies under and keep them in subjection, by first purifying our hearts and bringing under every thought and desire for sin into the faith and obedience of Christ.

Christians seeking perfection are ever-ready to revenge against any thought of disobedience to Jesus, by destroying it when they see it coming at their minds eye. There eye is made single, and is kept single, and so their whole heart is full of light: that is when their obedience to Christ is wholly fulfilled in the heart and in the body.

They are no longer cursing their own wretchedness of doublemindedness, because they have learned to bring every thought of the mind into subjection to the law of Christ, so that the law of sin no longer works in their bodies, because it no longer has hold in their minds, so that they can say plainly:

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The righteousness of the law of Christ is fulfilled in them that fulfill all obedience to Christ: first in the heart of an overcoming mind, then in the body of an obedient saint.

 

[amigo de christo]

 

[amigo de christo]

 

[PinSeeker]

"I.e. in the OSAS kingdom their hearts are still deceitful and desperately sick."

Absolutely they are, in this life. Absolutely. But in this "OSAS kingdom" they ~ we ~ are aware of and cognizant of the fact that their ~ our ~ hearts are deceitful and desperately sick and in desperate need of God's mercy and compassion... and a Savior and His righteousness.

This is the kind of gooey grace that Jesus spues out.

Hmmm, interesting. So you don't believe Jesus? If so, that's unfortunate. If that is true, then I would question why you're even in a discussion forum that is supposed to be for Christians only. Not that I'm not okay with you being here and hearing these things; rather, that's a good thing.

OSAS applies to themselves the Scripture that condemns the hearts of unbelieving transgressors.

Well, no, Jeremiah is writing his prophecy to the Israelites of old, God's chosen people. And John is addressing believers throughout his first, second, and third epistles. Even after we are saved (become Christians), we still retain the "old man," as Paul refers to the sinful nature, and exhorts us to "put off the old man and put on the new" ~ sin no more. We are no different (or better) in our condition in this life than those who are not saved ~ except that we are redeemed by the blood of Christ.

It does not even occur to them, that they are openly condemning their own hearts.

Well, not condemning of ourselves, but certainly hating the sin that still dwells within us and longing to be fully freed from it. But the certainty is that we will be fully freed from it, when ~ when ~ we are glorified, which, Romans 8:30 ("...those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified.") assures us of.

Those who's hearts have not been changed from deceitful and sick to pure and holy are not saved.

Ah, so, I think this answers, in a roundabout way, what I asked you some time ago. You think you're without sin now? That you no longer sin? If you think that, then you might take a look at 1 John 1:8 ~ "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." And again, remember, John is writing to believers, Christians of his day, and by extension, us. He address his readers as "children" and "beloved" many times, indicating that although what he says is certainly applicable to Christians as well as non-Christians, he is preaching (his letters are very sermonic in tone) to Christians. In the opening of 1 John 1, he says "...that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. And we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete."

So he is addressing believers as well as unbelievers.

To claim to have such a wicked heart is to walk around saying "I am not saved!"

No, but rather "I am not worthy, but have joy inexpressible that I have been given what I did not deserve... and in fact the opposite of what I do deserve." Which is certainly God's AMAZING ~ not "gooey" ~ grace.

I mean, you guys can keep on with this demagoguery as much as you want; it's inconsequential. The irony here is that, if what I say is true, I have absolute assurance of my eternal destiny, whereas, if what you say is true, none of us do. And in that sentence, you can substitute the word 'assurance' with 'faith'... if what I say is true, I have God-given faith, whereas, if what you say is true, none of us do. We can make this substitution because, as I said in my previous post, according to Hebrews 11:1, that's what faith is, an absolute, Rock-solid ~ see what I did there? ~ assurance given by God Himself.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Those who... have gone out from the teaching of the early Church) are doomed to eternal condemnation...

Ah, not necessarily. If they remain out from the teaching of the early Church, yes. But they might at some point return. But still, it's about being in Christ or not... having been given new life in the Spirit. For those that "go out," that may not be the case, or it may be the case and that person is straying. But yes, if they remain out, they are not "of us," do not have new life in the Spirit, are not in Christ, are not Christians. This is what is to be seen in the accompanying exposition on the two verses I quoted.

My comment earlier was for you to "take heed" which you foolishly brushed aside.

Well, yes and no. I certainly take heed ~ in a positive way ~ of all of God's Word. But as for what you say (not you personally, but only what you say), where it conflicts with God's Word, I have and will continue to, well, "brush it aside"... or rather, heed it in a rejecting and sorrowful sense.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Cooper]

Ah, not necessarily. If they remain out from the teaching of the early Church, yes. But they might at some point return. But still, it's about being in Christ or not... having been given new life in the Spirit. For those that "go out," that may not be the case, or it may be the case and that person is straying. But yes, if they remain out, they are not "of us," do not have new life in the Spirit, are not in Christ, are not Christians. This is what is to be seen in the accompanying exposition on the two verses I quoted.


Well, yes and no. I certainly take heed ~ in a positive way ~ of all of God's Word. But as for what you say (not you personally, but only what you say), where it conflicts with God's Word, I have and will continue to, well, "brush it aside"... or rather, heed it in a rejecting and sorrowful sense.

Grace and peace to you.

All I can think to say, is that we all need to live a life that is pleasing to God. But according to OSAS that is not necessary, and as you have just said, you will "continue to brush it aside" this is why I fear for your eternal security.
.

 

[NewMusic]

I appreciate your honest effort here, but you need to provide Scripture for making difference between apostacy and returning to riotous living.

So far, all you offer is your interpretation, which I don't see.

Scriptural apostacy is just of the heart and mind but is also of the body and life on earth:

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections.

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient.

We see there is no distinction between apostacy of mind vs body: God gives people over to their own mind full of vain imagination, to do the filthy things of the world, and also to become reprobate unto every good work.

They cease doing any good and the righteousness of God, and return to live as they please with the flesh, no more pleasing God in any way.

This is the state of putting Christ to an open shame, crucifying Him afresh by open sin without shame, so that God gives up on us, and it is impossible then to even repent:

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost...If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance.

Otherwise what Jesus proclaimed and taught about never forsaking His own, and forgiving sins as often as the penitent asks for forgiveness, would be nullified.

The error here is that apostacy is the condition where God no longer draws us to confession and repentance. Being convicted of sin and drawn to repentance is the grace of God, Who has yet to give up on us, even after 70 x 7 times. No man confesses sin from the heart, except the Spirit convicts the heart and draws to Jesus Christ for forgiveness and washing clean of sin:

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him.

The total lack of hope and despair.

Nothing about this says anything of having no hope and being in despair. They have no more hope in Christ, but certainly can have their hope in a false christ, and have nothing to despair about. Which of course is the definition of unconditional grace and salvation.

There are plenty of people in vile affections being taught that God does not judge them for it. In fact, He doesn't even see it because of 'grace'.

Nothing in Scripture says the reprobate from God is crying in despair of their filthy living. They could be just as happy as a lark in 'celebrating' their 'grace'.

But turning away from Christ to a different religion.

And the different religion is what they still call Christianity. Once again, no Scripture speaks of going to a 'different religion', but only turning from God to such a degree of vain imagination in the mind and filthiness of the flesh, that He gives up on them and turns them over to what their souls truly lust after.

Hebrews 6 (and by extension to chapter 10) is addressed to the Hebrew Christians that were close to forsaking Jesus and turning to a different religion (Judaism) due to a new wave of persecution, and thus holding Christ up to contempt.

While the book is called Hebrews by man, it does not mean the book nor any part was only addressing 'Hebrews Christians'. I do not ascribe to that way of reading Scripture. Every part and Scripture of the NT is written by God to me, and I read it as such. There are no Hebrew, Jewish, Gentile Christians, but only Christians that obey Jesus as Lord, and them that turn back from doing so.

Now, there was no doubt persecution, but that would only be one cause for the greater error: turning back from the righteousness and love of Christ to the sins and enmity of the world with strong delusion of a reprobate mind.

The result being a once fruitful ground becoming rejected thorns and briers. The lead into this state is Heb 5, where certain babies were refusing to grow up and go on to perfection, and so became castaways, like the ancient practice of exposure of the rejected child.

Sinning willfully in Heb 10 is just that: willfully sinning by doing the evil we know not to do, and not doing the good we know to do. Nothing in Hebrews even hints at the cause being persecution, or that it is only a warning not to go to false religion, but is all about not returning to the old life of sin, resurrecting the old man of the corrupt heart.

The only cause for it mentioned in Scripture is of babies refusing to grow up, and never moving on from continual repentance of dead works, that continue to show themselves unrepented time and time and time again. Maybe 70 x 70 times.

First, I know OSAS is a lie. And the fruit of teaching that doctrine has been horrible and evil. It does not produce the fear of God in people which is absolutely required as a follower of Christ.

Second, apostasy is not the same thing as what you think it is. It has a clear definition (which I provided). I'll save this debate for another time.


But let me ask you one question, Robert, which will help all of us to understand your personal faith better. When you teach what you do and believe what you do, answering this question will help everyone to know your position better so it will further your ministry better.:

Which of these 2 characters in Jesus' example do you most identify with?

Luke 18:10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank thee that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
Luke 18:12 I fast twice a week, I give tithes of all that I get.'
Luke 18:13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'
Luke 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for every one who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."

?

 

[PinSeeker]

All I can think to say, is that we all need to live a life that is pleasing to God.

I agree, for sure. We are called to do that. But, two things to say to that:

1. Living a life that is pleasing to God does not earn us salvation in any way. Maybe a bigger mansion... ... but not salvation itself, because if one is heart-regenerate Christian, that has already been given to us. And as Jesus says, His sheep hear His voice, and He knows (actively loves) them, and they follow Him; He gives them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of His hand. His Father, Who has given them to Him, is greater than all, and no one (not even themselves) is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand (John 10:27-29).

2. We surely have a responsibility to battle against the sin that still dwells in our body (put off the old man and put on the new, as Paul exhorts us in 2 Corinthians), but we have the Holy Spirit to help us do that.

But according to OSAS that is not necessary...

Oh, but it is. See above. Intentionally or otherwise, you mischaracterize OSAS (and you have a lot of company doing that, obviously). Fortunately, though, all we who are born again of the Holy Spirit have the Holy Spirit, Who enables us to do just that, despite our failings/sin.

...as you have just said, you will "continue to brush it aside" this is why I fear for your eternal security..

Yes, I will continue to refute anything anybody says that is contrary to the Word of God. But thanks for your concern, insincere as it may possibly be.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

First, I know OSAS is a lie. And the fruit of teaching that doctrine has been horrible and evil. It does not produce the fear of God in people which is absolutely required as a follower of Christ.

AH!!! I love this statement! Well, not... really... because it's very misguided... ... but I love that it brings up the fear of the living God. I absolutely agree that we are to fear God; that is certainly a Scriptural mandate. But a question, if you will:

What, in your (I hope not "puffed up") opinion, does it mean to fear God? And before you answer, remember 1 John 4:18, where John tells us that "(t)here is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear... (f)or fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love."

See, it's possible, that you understand correctly what Godly fear is, and if so, that's great, but your statement that "OSAS" (again, a clumsy and misleading way of characterizing the Calvinistic understanding of the God's great salvation, but okay) does not produce the required fear of God seems to belie that. I would argue that the true doctrine of the perseverance of the saints, as set forth by Augustine and all the reformers (Martin Luther, John Calvin, and many others even up to today) that championed (champion) it, only produces more Godly fear and more fervent worship of God. So again, what does it really mean to fear God?

Regardless of that, again I will point out, in support of the doctrine of the sure perseverance of the saints, the inspired word of God:

* "...those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified."
[Romans 8:30]

* "In (Christ) you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory."
[Ephesians 1:13-14]

* "To all the saints in Christ Jesus... I am sure of this, that He Who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."
[Philippians 1:1-6]

* "To those who are elect... (b)lessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
[1 Peter 1:1-5]​

...let me ask you one question, Robert, which will help all of us to understand your personal faith better. When you teach what you do and believe what you do, answering this question will help everyone to know your position better so it will further your ministry better.:

Which of these 2 characters in Jesus' example do you most identify with?

Luke 18:10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank thee that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
Luke 18:12 I fast twice a week, I give tithes of all that I get.'
Luke 18:13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'
Luke 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for every one who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."?

I am assuming you think we most identify with the tax collector. If so, then...

Grace and peace to you!

 

[Cooper]

I agree, for sure. We are called to do that. But, two things to say to that:

1. Living a life that is pleasing to God does not earn us salvation in any way. Maybe a bigger mansion... ... but not salvation itself, because if one is heart-regenerate Christian, that has already been given to us. And as Jesus says, His sheep hear His voice, and He knows (actively loves) them, and they follow Him; He gives them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of His hand. His Father, Who has given them to Him, is greater than all, and no one (not even themselves) is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand (John 10:27-29).

2. We surely have a responsibility to battle against the sin that still dwells in our body (put off the old man and put on the new, as Paul exhorts us in 2 Corinthians), but we have the Holy Spirit to help us do that.


Oh, but it is. See above. Intentionally or otherwise, you mischaracterize OSAS (and you have a lot of company doing that, obviously). Fortunately, though, all we who are born again of the Holy Spirit have the Holy Spirit, Who enables us to do just that, despite our failings/sin.


Yes, I will continue to refute anything anybody says that is contrary to the Word of God. But thanks for your concern, insincere as it may possibly be.

Grace and peace to you.

As long as we all live a life that is pleasing to God the Saviour (Jesus), and provided we put Him first in all we do, (see the Sermon on the Mount) then fine. May the Lord Jesus Christ bless you and keep you always. Amen.
.

 

[PinSeeker]

May the Lord Jesus Christ bless you and keep you always. Amen..

Much the same to you, Cooper. Grace and peace to you.

 

[NewMusic]

Post

Come on, Robert. We're all waiting! Don't be afraid.

Which of these 2 characters in Jesus' example do you identify with?

Luke 18:10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank thee that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
Luke 18:12 I fast twice a week, I give tithes of all that I get.'
Luke 18:13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'
Luke 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for every one who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."

 

[NewMusic]

I agree, for sure. We are called to do that. But, two things to say to that:

1. Living a life that is pleasing to God does not earn us salvation in any way. Maybe a bigger mansion... ... but not salvation itself, because if one is heart-regenerate Christian, that has already been given to us. And as Jesus says, His sheep hear His voice, and He knows (actively loves) them, and they follow Him; He gives them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of His hand. His Father, Who has given them to Him, is greater than all, and no one (not even themselves) is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand (John 10:27-29).

2. We surely have a responsibility to battle against the sin that still dwells in our body (put off the old man and put on the new, as Paul exhorts us in 2 Corinthians), but we have the Holy Spirit to help us do that.


Oh, but it is. See above. Intentionally or otherwise, you mischaracterize OSAS (and you have a lot of company doing that, obviously). Fortunately, though, all we who are born again of the Holy Spirit have the Holy Spirit, Who enables us to do just that, despite our failings/sin.


Yes, I will continue to refute anything anybody says that is contrary to the Word of God. But thanks for your concern, insincere as it may possibly be.

Grace and peace to you.

AH!!! I love this statement! Well, not... really... because it's very misguided... ... but I love that it brings up the fear of the living God. I absolutely agree that we are to fear God; that is certainly a Scriptural mandate. But a question, if you will:

What, in your (I hope not "puffed up") opinion, does it mean to fear God? And before you answer, remember 1 John 4:18, where John tells us that "(t)here is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear... (f)or fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love."

See, it's possible, that you understand correctly what Godly fear is, and if so, that's great, but your statement that "OSAS" (again, a clumsy and misleading way of characterizing the Calvinistic understanding of the God's great salvation, but okay) does not produce the required fear of God seems to belie that. I would argue that the true doctrine of the perseverance of the saints, as set forth by Augustine and all the reformers (Martin Luther, John Calvin, and many others even up to today) that championed (champion) it, only produces more Godly fear and more fervent worship of God. So again, what does it really mean to fear God?

Regardless of that, again I will point out, in support of the doctrine of the sure perseverance of the saints, the inspired word of God:

* "...those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified."
[Romans 8:30]

* "In (Christ) you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory."
[Ephesians 1:13-14]

* "To all the saints in Christ Jesus... I am sure of this, that He Who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."
[Philippians 1:1-6]

* "To those who are elect... (b)lessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
[1 Peter 1:1-5]​

I am assuming you think we most identify with the tax collector. If so, then...

Grace and peace to you!

[/QUOTE]

Last things first.

Actually I believe the majority of us identify with the tax collector, but not so robert derrick. I'm still waiting on his reply.

Regarding "perfect love casts out fear"... You and all of christendom have not analyzed that chapter for yourselves, but regurgitate that verse without any thinking or studying, because the so-called church has shoved it down everybody's throats, incorrectly.

Who is being addressed in 1 John? And especially, what instruction is John giving them in the 4th chapter?

ANSWER: The saints are being instructed, and the topic of teaching is ever so clear in this 4th chapter starting at v.7.

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another; for love is of God, and he who loves is born of God and knows God.

Pinseeker, that should clue you in right there. John is addressing further issues among the brethren so they can become mature and perfected, would you agree?

The topic of this 4th chapter is how the brethren need to show love to one another, and that is the theme throughout the rest of the chapter. Let me post the verses concluding the chapter:

1 John 4:20 If any one says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.
1 John 4:21 And this commandment we have from him, that he who loves God should love his brother also.


So are you seeing your error now, Pinseeker? If not, let's go back a couple verses to the one you think applies to God, when it is actually applying to the brethren:

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love.

v.18 is telling you, Pinseeker, and all the saints, that if you truly loved your brother, he would have no fear. Perfect love from Pinseeker casts out fear in NewMusic. Isn't that beautiful? The onus is on you, Pinseeker, to love truly and love your brothers and sister so well that they have no fear, and are able to confess their sins freely without fear of retribution from you and others.

If the church practiced love as Jesus commanded us, then the church would have no fear from one another, and love would be demonstrated, and the world would see beauty rather than hypocrisy.

So wrapping up this question of yours, this is NOT talking about perfect love from God (which we all already know about), which also would make no sense because it would put the onus on the child of God to try and figure something out that is wrong within him/herself as to why he/she still has fear when he/she knows God loves him/her.

The fear people have comes from other "christians" who do not walk in love.

This is so obvious I should not have to write this, but there you have it. And again, what I just taught you is fortified by the verses before it, and the three verses coming immediately after v.18:

1 John 4:19 We love, because he first loved us.
1 John 4:20 If any one says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.
1 John 4:21 And this commandment we have from him, that he who loves God should love his brother also.

And it does not happen automatically, Pinseeker. You have to actually LABOR over people and demonstrate love so that their fears subside and they can "open up" to you. It's work. A lot of work. It's love.

See next post for your other question.

 

[NewMusic]

When Jesus said

Matt 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

It's so painfully obvious that nobody should need a teaching on a simple sentence. Both "fear" words used are the same and have the same meaning, and from the context of the entire verse nobody could possibly be mistaken.

The word fear in both instances is identical. Don't fear man, but rather fear God.

The context makes it very clear. Don't fear man who can hurt, torture, and kill your human body, but rather fear God who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Pinseeker, now that you have learned the error that the "church" has been teaching you your whole life, the error about who the subject of casting fear out of a brother is upon (my post above), you really did not need me to write this post now, did you.

When you learned the error of the false ideas you had surrounding 1 John 4:18, it all made sense to you, right? There is no inconsistency. No contradiction. And the clarity of Matthew 10:28 is not put out of commission by a mistaken belief about who it is that should love his brother and cause any and all fears he has to be dissipated.