Grace is NOT unmerited favor!

[justbyfaith]

If you will still be sinning in the present and future as some teach, how is that free indeed?

The provision is so that if anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous One.

However, it is of course also true that being born again of the Holy Spirit means that I am a new creature in Christ who is inclined towards obedience.

We are told to "agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou arr on the way with him."

Therefore I find that sometimes the devil does the Holy Spirit's job (of convicting of sin) when he accuses me of sinning.

When this happens, I tend to agree with mine adversary, I confess my sin immediately; and it is also immediately forgiven.

But if I were to deny that I have in fact sinned when I am accused, I am on my way to the judge; and it may very well be that the judge will hand me over to the officer; and I will be cast into prison.

We overcome the accuser not only by the word of our testimony but by the blood of the Lamb.

There is forgiveness with the Lord even concerning sins that you may commit in the future.

Am I telling you to commit sin? No; but emphatically I say to you that if you are born again you will not sin.

But if you are still saved by grace, you are forgiven of sins that you may commit in the future.

So then, what is the motivation that deters me from committing sins in my future?

I must needs be apprehended by the love of the Lord; in order that I may love Him enough to keep from dishonouring Him with sin; to keep from grieving Him by my sinful behaviour.

I will say that our freedom from slavery to sin is a direct result of being forgiven so that our relationship to the law has changed. We are no longer under the law; we are dead to the law; we are delivered from the law (Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19, Romans 7:6). Therefore what we find in Romans 7:5 and Romans 7:8 as a principle does not any longer affect us unto the practice of sinning.

Thus we are set free from sinning when we are set free from the law.

 

[justbyfaith]

How can one repent of something that one has not committed,

When we say that we have been cleansed from all sin, we are not denying that we have sinned.

 

[Fred Eans]

I voted other in the above. My reason is God’s will, which covers any and all excesses.

 

[Candidus]

listen...start a thread about your denial of psa. Do not derail this one.
You think you have a biblical case, show it. We know you cannot.

You brought it up, therefore it is fair game. You browbeat and judge people's salvation by using it as a stick, yet you cannot defend it. You claim that it is true because it is popular, then evade the same "proof" you claim to accept when Islam has more people that disagree than you have that believe it!

Really? Popularity did not make PSA "Biblical," being dogmatic that it is established soteriology did not prove anything in the way of making it Biblical; and yet, you call what others believe to be merely "philosophical" when that is all you have for your argument!

 

[justbyfaith]

The word "propitiation" in the Bible speaks of Penal Substitutionary Atonement. It is found in several places; and looking up the word in a Bible Dictionary may in fact be in order.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

You brought it up, therefore it is fair game. You browbeat and judge people's salvation by using it as a stick, yet you cannot defend it. You claim that it is true because it is popular, then evade the same "proof" you claim to accept when Islam has more people that disagree than you have that believe it!

Really? Popularity did not make PSA "Biblical," being dogmatic that it is established soteriology did not prove anything in the way of making it Biblical; and yet, you call what others believe to be merely "philosophical" when that is all you have for your argument!

you are a contentious poster.
i doubt you know what you are talking about.
I have not attempted an answer because you do not want one.

 

[Candidus]

The word "propitiation" in the Bible speaks of Penal Substitutionary Atonement. It is found in several places; and looking up the word in a Bible Dictionary may in fact be in order.

A Lexicon would do much to dispel the ignorance of the word. Penal Substitution is not in Scripture. It cannot be "connected" with a word that can mean propitiation, expiation or Mercy Seat. If you believe that there was not theological bias from the Calvinists on the translation committee, you would be mistaken.

I have not seen a Bible Dictionary yet that denies the alternatives I listed, nor does the simple term "propitiation" demand any fictional Penal Substitution.

Zondervan: Propitiation, expiation and Mercy Seat.
Nelsons: Very brief... Propitiation. Does not discuss alternatives. Makes zero connection to Penal Substitution.
Harpers: Says... "see Expiation."
Hastings: (One Volume Edition) ..."It seems, then, that the technical sacrificial terminology refers rather to expiation of sin than to propitiation of an angry God." No mention of Mercy Seat.
Dictionary of Paul and His Letters: says, "Propitiation. see Death of Christ; Expiation, Propitiation, Mercy Seat.

Well... I followed your suggestion, and still see no connection or proof that would establish Penal Substitution by looking at "Propitiation" in Bible Dictionaries.

 

[Candidus]

you are a contentious poster.
i doubt you know what you are talking about.
I have not attempted an answer because you do not want one.

Logical Fallacies; let me count the ways!

1). Ad hominem.... I am contentious.
2). Poisoning the well... I doubt that you know what you are talking about.
3). Appeal to the Stone, and Appeal to Ignorance.... I have not attempted an answer because you do not want one.

A rational, Biblical answer is obviously evasive.

 

[justbyfaith]

Propitiation speaks of that which enables God to be just and the justifier of him which believes in Jesus.

Justice and mercy meet at the Cross.

There are two irreconcilable attributes in the heart of the Lord.

1) Justice; which requires that the exact penalty be meted out for crimes committed;

and,

2) Mercy; which desires that less than what is deserved be meted out.

God reconciled justice and mercy at the Cross; by dying in the place of sinners (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

Thus, justice is satisfied, in that the penalty was paid by the Son of God, as He died in our place;

And mercy is also given; because Jesus took our sins upon Himself and the just due and penalty for them; so that God the Father can give us less than what we deserve while justice is also satisfied in that our penalty was paid by another.

It has been explained as the following:

A community had a law that cars could go 70 mile per hour on the freeway at a certain place. But it was discovered that a certain, endangered snail lived in that habitat, so a law was made that people could only go 5 mi/hr. on that same stretch of road. Now there was a $50,000 fine for going over 5 mi/hr on that road.

A judge's son, who had not heard of the law, violated the law and was brought before his father for judgment.

The judge promptly proceeded to execute the fine of $50,000; and if the son could not pay the fine, he would have to do jail time until the debt was paid.

The judge then stepped down from the bench, took out his checkbook, and proceeded to write out a check for $50,000 on behalf of his son.

In this way the judge retained his status as a just judge and also was able to show mercy to his son.

 

[justbyfaith]

We partake of his righteousness, but we are not yet perfect.

See Hebrews 10:14.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Logical Fallacies; let me count the ways!

1). Ad hominem.... I am contentious.
2). Poisoning the well... I doubt that you know what you are talking about.
3). Appeal to the Stone, and Appeal to Ignorance.... I have not attempted an answer because you do not want one.

A rational, Biblical answer is obviously evasive.

I have no interest in your debate fallacies,and carnal philosophy.
start your thread ,take a stand.

 

[Candidus]

Propitiation speaks of that which enables God to be just and the justifier of him which believes in Jesus.

Justice and mercy meet at the Cross.

There are two irreconcilable attributes in the heart of the Lord.

1) Justice; which requires that the exact penalty be meted out for crimes committed;

Retributive justice is not required in Scripture. If this were true, the "exact penalty" was not meted out, and Jesus failed to atone for our sins!

The wages of sin is death; Spiritual death.... Eternal Separation from God in the tortures of Hell...

Where is Jesus? If "exact penalty" must be meted out for crimes committed, we need another Savior because Jesus is not suffering separated in and Eternal Hell as we speak! Remember, YOU set that standard!

2) Mercy; which desires that less than what is deserved be meted out.

But you just said that God must get His pound of flesh! It MUST be EXACT! If the punishment was PAID, then there is no such thing as MERCY with God! A Judge can either punish, or they can pardon. They can either demand payment, and give the offender their penalty, or they can show mercy and grace and forgo that penalty. They cannot do both. God will not punish the same sin twice, or demand a double payment! If we interject payment into the fact that Jesus died for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD, then no one is unsaved! If someone is lost, then Jesus did not love them enough to pay for their sins! Then we have Fatalism, those that have been "paid for" have always been saved, they just wake up to the fact that they were saved all this time and did not know it!

If Jesus paid for sin, then there is no such thing as pardon or forgiveness! If the penalty is "paid," then there is nothing to forgive! Strange... the Penal Substitution Theory says that God only accepts payment, and that is all that matters! No mercy, no forgiveness or pardon, just cold, hard retributive justice!

Penal Satisfaction was invented to support and lead you to the inevitable conclusion of Calvinistic Fatalism.

 

[CharismaticLady]

The provision is so that if anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous One.

Question: 1 John 2:1 where Jesus is our Advocate doesn't mention anything about repentance. So what type of sin is Jesus our Advocate?

 

[justbyfaith]

Retributive justice is not required in Scripture. If this were true, the "exact penalty" was not meted out, and Jesus failed to atone for our sins!

The wages of sin is death; Spiritual death.... Eternal Separation from God in the tortures of Hell...

Where is Jesus? If "exact penalty" must be meted out for crimes committed, we need another Savior because Jesus is not suffering separated in and Eternal Hell as we speak! Remember, YOU set that standard!

Jesus paid the exact penalty of each one of our finite lives being in hell for all of eternity; in that He is infinite in nature, being God; and therefore was able to die for all sins and still come out on the other side resurrected from the dead. It was not possible that He should be held down by the grave according to Acts of the Apostles 2:24.

But you just said that God must get His pound of flesh! It MUST be EXACT! If the punishment was PAID, then there is no such thing as MERCY with God! A Judge can either punish, or they can pardon. They can either demand payment, and give the offender their penalty, or they can show mercy and grace and forgo that penalty. They cannot do both.

It has been explained as the following:

A community had a law that cars could go 70 mile per hour on the freeway at a certain place. But it was discovered that a certain, endangered snail lived in that habitat, so a law was made that people could only go 5 mi/hr. on that same stretch of road. Now there was a $50,000 fine for going over 5 mi/hr on that road.

A judge's son, who had not heard of the law, violated the law and was brought before his father for judgment.

The judge promptly proceeded to execute the fine of $50,000; and if the son could not pay the fine, he would have to do jail time until the debt was paid.

The judge then stepped down from the bench, took out his checkbook, and proceeded to write out a check for $50,000 on behalf of his son.

In this way the judge retained his status as a just judge and also was able to show mercy to his son.

If Jesus paid for sin, then there is no such thing as pardon or forgiveness!

Forgivenesss is provided for in the penalty being paid at the Cross.

If the penalty is "paid," then there is nothing to forgive!

We have all sinned (Romans 3:23, 1 John 1:10); and therefore there is something to forgive.

Strange... the Penal Substitution Theory says that God only accepts payment, and that is all that matters! No mercy, no forgiveness or pardon, just cold, hard retributive justice!

Indeed, justice is satisfied in what Jesus did for us on the Cross! Not like with the muslim god, who simply metes out mercy without any real justice, so that mercy is shown to the muslim who commits acts of terrorism on the world; and he does not get what he deserves for doing that; and neither is there any justice.

 

[justbyfaith]

Question: 1 John 2:1 where Jesus is our Advocate doesn't mention anything about repentance. So what type of sin is Jesus our Advocate?

What is your answer to this question?

 

[CharismaticLady]

What is your answer to this question?

I asked you!

Now, if you are serious and want to know because you hadn't thought of no repentance required, then read my post #188, and subsequent posts to Nancy.

 

[justbyfaith]

I asked you!

Sorry I haven't studied it out so I don't have an answer for you right now.

I am interested in your answer though.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Sorry I haven't studied it out so I don't have an answer for you right now.

I am interested in your answer though.

Then read my post #188, and subsequent posts to Nancy.

 

[justbyfaith]

Let me refresh your memory on my teaching on sin. (Take it, or leave it) I have thought a great deal about this and remember that night I was born again and what an instantaneous change in my desires occurred. Yet I was far from perfect. Sinlessness, and perfection are not the same thing, but both are attainable. Sinlessness is easiest.

First, 1 John 5:16-17 shows us there are two types of sins.
= Sins unto death.
= Sins not unto death.

I think the Catholic Church has it right in deeming these as mortal sins, and venial sins.

Sins unto death
1 John 3 is about "mortal" sins unto death called lawlessness. These are intentional with our full knowledge that these are against God's laws. I was in church for 30 years before I was filled with God's Spirit, and during that those 30 years I did commit mortal sins. I wasn't saved. But after that I didn't knowingly commit those rebellious sins of lawlessness. I couldn't. It was no longer in my nature.

Therefore:
Sins of lawlessness: zero (subtotal)

Second, sins not unto death.

The Old Testament is recorded to show us the nature of God and His ways. He allowed sacrifice for unintentional sins that Catholics would call venial sins. The Bible calls them trespasses. Leviticus 5:15. When Jesus taught the disciples to pray, the only type of "sin" to ask forgiveness for were trespasses. I expect because He would be giving us His power to keep us from committing mortal sins. After the Lord's Prayer in Matthew, the next verse is how we can be sinless in that area of our lives too. Forgive, forgive, forgive, forgive, forgive ad infinitum.

Matthew 6:14-15
14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Also, going to bed with a clear conscience. Philippians 3:16 shows us that as we grow in the Lord, we are only accountable for the knowledge we have thus far. But we are expected to keep growing. 1 John 3:21-24 shows us that if your conscience is clear (and you've forgiven those who have trespassed against you) you have assurance of your salvation.

Therefore:
We have forgiven others their trespasses. Our trespasses: zero (subtotal)
Sins we still have no knowledge of: zero (subtotal)

Total: zero

PERFECTION:

2 Peter 1:5-7, 10-11
5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I would say to this that sin is sin according to James 2:10.

Whether you break the least of these commandments or one of the greater ones, you are guilty of breaking all of God's law.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I would say to this that sin is sin according to James 2:10.

No, some sins are not written in God's laws. Those that are are sins unto death; those that are not are sins not unto death. Two types. Jesus is only our Advocate once He has empowered you with His Holy Spirit for sins not unto death, but not for sins written in the Law which require repentance. 1 John 5:16-17

Talk to you later. Read my posts.