Grace is NOT unmerited favor!

[farouk]

Grace is unmerited favor.

@Mayflower Yes, indeed; this is my understanding also; Ephesians is a glorious Epistle around themes such as grace, especially.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I would only say that those who are of the world will pick up on your teaching and hold to it; while those who know the Lord will reject your teaching for the truth.

You may say it, but it falls woefully short of a response to my point. My point was that the verse we're referring to has to do with the *work of Christ* in *eventually* bringing us to perfection--not that we are brought, by the work of Christ, to *immediate perfection!*

And you simply disparage it without any proof at all, without any interpretation of the passage at all. This is not a rebuttal--it's just a sigh.

See 1 John 4:4-6.

For those who know the Lord and are taught to abide in Him through the anointing that is given to them (see 1 John 2:27) will understand that abiding in Him means that we do not commit sin (1 John 3:6); and that we are indeed able to abide consistently for ever (1 John 2:17).

[sigh] John is *not* saying Christians don't sin any more! Obviously, John has already stated, in the same letter, that Christians are *liars* if they say they haven't sinned or don't sin!

So you have to understand this not at a superficial surface level, but rather, in context, that John is talking about the general sense that once born again we tend towards following Christ --we are influenced by the indwelling Spirit of Christ, to want the things of heaven, and are turned off by the corrupt things of the earth.

None of this has a thing to do with "sinless perfection." Rather, it is talking about a *lifestyle" of not sinning, generally.

"We do not commit sin" could easily be translated "once we become Christians Christ's nature lives within us and we are motivated to avoid sin. Even if we do sin, and we will sin, because the sin nature is within us, the Spirit of Christ is stronger within us, and we can overcome our sinful tendencies to obey Christ and to do righteousness."

 

[Helen]

@Mayflower Yes, indeed; this is my understanding also; Ephesians is a glorious Epistle around themes such as grace, especially.

The thing is , that makes it sound totally passive. Someone could give you a gift of a coat...and you could just hang it in the closest . It's yours to do what you like with it.
Why would Paul say "Receive NOT the grace of out Lord Jesus Christ in VAIN." If grace is just to be "hung in the closet".

Grace is - God ability IN YOU , to do what you ( yourself) cannot do, and the refection in the life .
Grace is the gift of Himself and His power in us, so that we reflect Him in our life to the world.

Not just Unmerited favour, but MUCH MORE!

 

[farouk]

The thing is , that makes it sound totally passive. Someone could give you a gift of a coat...and you could just hang it in the closest . It's yours to do what you like with it.
Why would Paul say "Receive NOT the grace of out Lord Jesus Christ in VAIN." If grace is just to be "hung in the closet".

Grace is - God ability IN YOU , to do what you ( yourself) cannot do, and the refection in the life .
Grace is the gift of Himself and His power in us, so that we reflect Him in our life to the world.

Not just Unmerited favour, but MUCH MORE!

@Helen There is both Divine sovereignty and human responsibility. John 6 bears this out very clearly.

 

[Helen]

@Helen There is both Divine sovereignty and human responsibility. John 6 bears this out very clearly.

Yes, Grace has accountability. If not , then we end up just like the man who buried his talent away , then just gave to the Master when he returned to check what they had done with what He had given then .
The Master commended the man who had doubled his gift, and threw out the man who had "just kept his safe and unused".

Grace is not just 'unmerited favour.'

.....H

 

[farouk]

Yes, Grace has accountability. If not , then we end up just like the man who buried his talent away , then just gave to the Master when he returned to check what they had done with what He had given then .
The Master commended the man who had doubled his gift, and threw out the man who had "just kept his safe and unused".

Grace is not just 'unmerited favour.'

.....H

@Helen What I would say is that it definitely is unmerited favour by definition (Ephesians 2.8-9), but it does not stop there; it leads to Ephesians 2.10: 'we are His workmanship', etc.

 

[CharismaticLady]

It is written in the law that we must wear tzitzit and tallit (tassels on your garments) and tefilin (phylacteries on your arms and head).

Is someone who fails to do this committing a mortal sin?

Is a man eternally condemned except he become an orthodox Jew?

No, but the last 6 commandments are mortal laws.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I have already read them; I don't need to read them again. If I disagreed then I disagreed. If I agreed then I agreed. Reading them again is not going to change my pov.

Okay

 

[CharismaticLady]

you don't have to have grace to have power. power in the world is anything but grace.

how power in this case was administered "by grace or through grace" but one doesn't define the other. the Lord God used power to bring the Pharaoh to his knees or wipe out all flesh on the face of the earth. neither had anything to do with grace.

and the power demonstrated was God's association to said apostles showing the message to be true. like Jesus said:


Joh_10:25　 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Joh_10:38　 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

also what you're reading is a translation into British English relating to the sensibilities and use of language in England in the 1600's or thereafter.

so you are incorrect in your thinking by a mile or so. what's with the parallelism jive anyway, two things are mentioned in a sentence and its now the same thing, really?

No ALL power, but power to be righteous. Not power like Hitler.

 

[justbyfaith]

No, but the last 6 commandments are mortal laws.

See Matthew 5:17-20; James 2:10, Galatians 3:10, Matthew 5:48.

 

[CharismaticLady]

See Matthew 5:17-20; James 2:10, Galatians 3:10, Matthew 5:48.

Then don't do either. Whatever you believe is sin, is sin. Romans 14

 

[Enoch111]

Grace is not just 'unmerited favour.'

You might want to give that some serious thought. Does any human being MERIT or DESERVE the grace of God? As the book of Job says even the heavens are not clean in His sight. And there is none righteous, NO NOT ONE.

If grace was not unmerited favor, then each one of us should have earned our salvation somehow. But since God offers eternal life as A FREE GIFT it follows that no one could possibly earn the gift of eternal life. Which then means that grace is indeed unmerited, unearned, and undeserved. And that is why it is called AMAZING GRACE.

 

[justbyfaith]

Then don't do either. Whatever you believe is sin, is sin. Romans 14

What I am trying to say to you is that if you are attempting to earn your salvation through works / law-keeping / abstaining from sin; then all of the Old Testament applies as a definer of sins (as well as certain moral tenets of the New Testament).

But if you understand that you are not under the law but under grace, you are called to be obedient only to the spirit of the law; and are no longer bound by the letter.

 

[justbyfaith]

You might want to give that some serious thought. Does any human being MERIT or DESERVE the grace of God? As the book of Job says even the heavens are not clean in His sight. And there is none righteous, NO NOT ONE.

If grace was not unmerited favor, then each one of us should have earned our salvation somehow. But since God offers eternal life as A FREE GIFT it follows that no one could possibly earn the gift of eternal life. Which then means that grace is indeed unmerited, unearned, and undeserved. And that is why it is called AMAZING GRACE.

Of course, the gift of salvation is indeed the gift of righteousness (Romans 5:17).

This righteousness is practical (Matthew 5:6, Romans 5:19, 1 John 3:7); a man who does what is righteous, is righteous even as Christ is righteous.

 

[CharismaticLady]

What I am trying to say to you is that if you are attempting to earn your salvation through works / law-keeping / abstaining from sin; then all of the Old Testament applies as a definer of sins (as well as certain moral tenets of the New Testament).

But if you understand that you are not under the law but under grace, you are called to be obedient only to the spirit of the law; and are no longer bound by the letter.

You already know that I know that, so why bring it up? You do know that the law of Liberty is tougher than the Law of Moses don't you? But the Spirit makes it actually easier.

 

[justbyfaith]

You already know that I know that, so why bring it up? You do know that the law of Liberty is tougher than the Law of Moses don't you? But the Spirit makes it actually easier.

Actually, we are able to obey the spirit of the law (1 John 3:9); while the letter is impossible to keep (Galatians 3:22, Galatians 6:13).

For the letter includes the wearing of tzitzit and tallit and tefilin; a man would have to become an orthodox Jew in order to be saved; something which Paul and Barnabas vehemently opposed in Acts of the Apostles 15.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Actually, we are able to obey the spirit of the law (1 John 3:9); while the letter is impossible to keep (Galatians 3:22, Galatians 6:13).

For the letter includes the wearing of tzitzit and tallit and tefilin; a man would have to become an orthodox jew in order to be saved; something which Paul and Barnabas vehemently opposed in Acts of the Apostles 15.

I agree about the tzitzit, etc. But through the Spirit, we are able to keep the Ten Commandments, which is the Law spoken of in Romans 7.

 

[justbyfaith]

I agree about the tzitzit, etc. But through the Spirit, we are able to keep the Ten Commandments, which is the Law spoken of in Romans 7.

Yet not even Jesus kept the letter of the sabbath day laws (Exodus 20:10; John 5:17-18); which are found within the context of the Ten Commandments.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Yet not even Jesus kept the letter of the sabbath day laws (Exodus 20:10; John 5:17-18); which are found within the context of the Ten Commandments.

You do know Jesus lived under the Law, but taught the New Covenant laws.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Yet not even Jesus kept the letter of the sabbath day laws (Exodus 20:10; John 5:17-18); which are found within the context of the Ten Commandments.

Yes, He did, and always gave scriptural proof. It was the rabbis that made it harder.