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Discussion in 'Current Events & Politics Forum' started by tim bennett, Sep 16, 2007.

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  1. butxifxnot

    butxifxnot New Member

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    (thesuperjag;18425)
    Back up my beliefs? Which one are you addressing?
    =_=""This thread is written in English for a reason. I would advise you to, like, read this thread you're posting in.If you miss it, let me write you a quick abridged version:How the heck is joining the army of your secular government and shooting your enemies DEAD "Loving your enemies and doing good to those who hate you?"If someone were to come up to me and kill me, I wouldn't be saying "Thanks! I really appreciate that: you've done me a whole lotta GOOD."
    I'll back up Truth with scriptures, thank you very much as I'm not even in the mood at all to back away from what Christ said.
    Ah-hm. Then I predict we'll eventually agree. [​IMG] There is only one truth, after all. And I've never known Scripture to defeat the position I have developed to what I now have. It's only been ignored and rebutted by secular reasoning.
    I'll just attack the spirit of Death...boy that serpent loves to twist scriptures.
    Very poetic. :cool:
    I'll do the ones that you quote me on.
    =_="
    Actually truth is always sweet if one loves it...sweet only becomes bitter if they hate sweet.
    You are correct, to an extent. Lies are also sweet if one loves lies. JESUS says that if something is sweet, you have to be wary of it FIRST and TEST it, because Jesus said that men naturally want to learn what makes them feel good ("tickles the ears").And seeing as how the majority of the world loves hating their enemies and is for killing them, I'd say that if we had to take a pure guess as to which is right, we'd be safer saying that people WANT to hear "It's okay to kill your enemies".And be wary of it. Not many (and no one here) are.
     
  2. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (butxifxnot)
    (thesuperjag)
    Back up my beliefs? Which one are you addressing?
    =_=""This thread is written in English for a reason. I would advise you to, like, read this thread you're posting in.If you miss it, let me write you a quick abridged version:How the heck is joining the army of your secular government and shooting your enemies DEAD "Loving your enemies and doing good to those who hate you?"If someone were to come up to me and kill me, I wouldn't be saying "Thanks! I really appreciate that: you've done me a whole lotta GOOD."Well if you miss it on what Yahshua said in Matthew 5:17-18...Self-Defense is not a sin. Killing and murdering are two different things. I'm only going to say this once to you. If you have a person seen who is getting murdered, rape etc...would you not kill that person to save lives? Stop evil or would you let evil do it and be guilty of that same sin?Murdering is to plan to kill a person...lie in wait. Self Defense is not.Ecclesiastes 3:3 - A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;Ecclesiastes 3:5 - A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;Ecclesiastes 3:8 - A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.And YHWH gave us a common sense so we should use it.(butifxnot)
    (thesuperjag)
    Actually truth is always sweet if one loves it...sweet only becomes bitter if they hate sweet.
    You are correct, to an extent. Lies are also sweet if one loves lies. JESUS says that if something is sweet, you have to be wary of it FIRST and TEST it, because Jesus said that men naturally want to learn what makes them feel good ("tickles the ears").And seeing as how the majority of the world loves hating their enemies and is for killing them, I'd say that if we had to take a pure guess as to which is right, we'd be safer saying that people WANT to hear "It's okay to kill your enemies".And be wary of it. Not many (and no one here) are.And Yahshua never said "Don't do anything and just let evil win." We Christians are not second class citizens.Lovest ye in Christ Yahshua our Lord and Saviour.
     
  3. butxifxnot

    butxifxnot New Member

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    (thesuperjag;18427)
    Well if you miss it on what Yahshua said in Matthew 5:17-18...Self-Defense is not a sin.
    Let's look it up:17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 “For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished...ummm...
    Killing and murdering are two different things. I'm only going to say this once to you. If you have a person seen who is getting murdered, rape etc...would you not kill that person to save lives? Stop evil or would you let evil do it and be guilty of that same sin?
    Yes I would "Not kill that person to save lives." My Scriptural backing is Matthew 5:39 , 1 Peter 3:9 , Romans 12:21 , 1 Thess 5:15, and a slew of others. Jesus is not a Lord of convenience: I trust Him enough to know that obedience to Him does NOT result in sin. And Jesus said to do good to those who hate you. He reprimanded Peter for using a sword in self-defense (even though he was doing what Peter (and you, probably) thought He said to do when He said that two swords were enough to defend a dozen people).Now, where is your scripture to back up what YOU are saying?I'm not saying don't try to stop evil, and refusing to kill an evildoer does NOT mean you let the vile do whatever they want without trying to stop them (that's why you call the police: they are enforcers of general good): I'm saying "never return evil for evil". That phrase is in the Bible at LEAST half a dozen times. "Killing in self-defence is okay" is in there exactly none.Which is why a Christian joining the police force is also dicey like joining the military. Secular governments are "a law unto themselves". Christians are under GOD.
    Murdering is to plan to kill a person...lie in wait. Self Defense is not.Ecclesiastes 3:3 - A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;Ecclesiastes 3:5 - A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;Ecclesiastes 3:8 - A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.And YHWH gave us a common sense so we should use it.
    Excuse me, but are you saying that it is okay to hate?Jesus said hatred is murder. Are you saying He's wrong?Jesus' explicit commands take precedence over Solomon's poetry.If they don't, and your application of Ecclesiastes is correct, then killing is okay (like you say), and so is hatred. Which is Brother Samuel. (absurd)
    And Yahshua never said "Don't do anything and just let evil win." We Christians are not second class citizens.
    Yeah. But He did say "Return not evil for evil."The Lord will not screw over those who choose to trust Him and OBEY Him.And He commands that we love our enemies. Killing him does NOT constitute love, even when he hates us enough to mean us physical harm. Jesus didn't say to love them only until it begins to adversely affect us.
     
  4. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    Love is not always sweet and kind. Sometimes love means to stop evil. Hey if you don't believe YHWH's Words, how do you expect to believe Yahshua's Words? Yahshua said that His Father's Words never passed away.Lovest ye in Christ Yahshua our Lord and Saviour.
     
  5. E Nomine

    E Nomine New Member

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    Since Solomon was a prophet of God, butxifxnot, I'll take his words over yours, mate. Unless you are a prophet of God . . ..
     
  6. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    I am not concerned about what your personal opinions are. The only thing that matters is what scripture says And it says the control of Nation, Governments,Wars positive or negative are Gods to control to bring about his plans his prophecy. And yes people die do we have to like that? No, but we must have FAITH that they die for Gods plan and he will reward them in his way.Are we to hate our enemies? No. we are to love them does that mean that overrides God decisions? No. If its that persons time to die would it be better they get killed by a drunk driver or working to bring Gods plan about to save as many as call his name.Does it make one person here happy when someone dies?????Enemy or friendI think not therefore we all love our enemies. Like it or not the Word tells us God is in control of all governments and their agentsyou can have all the personal opinions you want and they are just that personal opinionsAnd Joyful I single you out because we've come to know and care about you. And dont want to see you go down this path.the others I havent got to know yet but if they are going down that path my warning to them is the same.Do not use the Sons words to deny the fathers words.
     
  7. butxifxnot

    butxifxnot New Member

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    (thesuperjag;18429)
    Love is not always sweet and kind.
    You're right. Back from walmart: they had a sale on Colt accessories! :naughty: Heck yes. Someone's gonna be loved on tonight.Seriously, though, love doesn't do evil. If a man came up to me and killed me, he has done me evil, not love. Love does not kill. Righteousness might, but love doesn't. You can't say you are loving your enemy when you kill him.
    Sometimes love means to stop evil.
    Jesus said specifically "do good to those who hate you" along with "love your enemy". Killing a rapist to save the victim is loving the victim, but you are not loving the enemy. Which...is direct disobedience to Christ's command.
    Hey if you don't believe YHWH's Words, how do you expect to believe Yahshua's Words? Yahshua said that His Father's Words never passed away.
    What exact words are you talking about? You are relying entirely on YOUR words, saying that "killing in self-defence is not murder," "refusing to kill someone who would kill another person is sin," "Christians are not second-class citizens [and thus have a right to kill attackers like the non-believers]"...none of those are YHWH's words. And yet you ignore Yeshua's words for the sake of these words which you are saying are God's...when they're not. :confused:You haven't given me any of YHWH's words to reject. And you're rejecting Jesus' words on that ground...Please consider what it is you're doing.
     
  8. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    Sure, I'll give you scriptures...Much more.Exodus 15:3 - The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.Jeremiah 21:4 - Thus saith the LORD God of Israel; Behold, I will turn back the weapons of war that are in your hands, wherewith ye fight against the king of Babylon, and against the Chaldeans, which besiege you without the walls, and I will assemble them into the midst of this city.Ecclesiastes 3:8 - Ecclesiastes 3:8 - A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.Lovest ye in Christ Yahshua our Lord and Saviour.
     
  9. E Nomine

    E Nomine New Member

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    The Bible does allow for killing in self-defense. In a sense, there are different kinds of self-defense. There is personal self-defense, self-defense of the society (“social self-defense”) and there is national self-defense, which we call “war.” In all of these cases, the taking of another human life is allowed for by God. This booklet has been dedicated to “social self-defense,” the execution of criminals who are dangerous to society. War is a national self-defense, when people are called upon to protect their nation from outside aggression, and any student of the Bible will attest to the large number of wars recorded therein. Of course, there are unjust wars of aggression for property, wealth, or slaves, and the heads of state who start those wars will be held responsible by God at the Judgment. Furthermore, not all killing in a war is justified, and almost every war has cases of what are now called “war crimes.”As with war and the execution of criminals, personal self-defense is also allowed for in Scripture. For example, Exodus 22:2 says, “If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed.” This verse should be the law of our land today, and unfortunately in many places it is not. In many cities, a homeowner is not allowed to be readily able to defend himself against someone breaking in. Some areas do not allow homeowners to have loaded guns available, while in some other areas the homeowner must first “be sure” that the intruder has a weapon or is capable of being deadly. Biblical Law says that if someone is breaking into your home, he does so at the risk of his life, and the homeowner would never be considered a criminal for defending himself. Also, remember that on the very day of his arrest Christ said to his disciples, “If you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one” (Luke 22:36). Christ expected things to become very unsafe for his disciples after his death, and told them to prepare to defend themselves from unjust aggression.It may help to think of killing in terms of “just or unjust” and “accidental or on purpose.”Murder: unjust and on purpose.Manslaughter: unjust but accidental.Execution of criminals (social self defense): just and on purpose.Killing in war (national self defense): just and on purpose.Killing in personal self-defense: just and on purpose.Self defense resulting in an accidental death: just but accidental.In the above list, we see that murder and manslaughter are unjust causes of death. In personal self-defense, the execution of criminals and in war, the cause of death is just, whether there is initial intent to kill the person or not. We can rightly conclude from Scripture that personal self-defense is something that God sanctions, even if it means the death of an unjust aggressor. The Founding Fathers of the United States were correct in asserting that God gave every person the right to “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” An aggressor who tries to take from others forfeits those rights, and it should be the law of the land that each and every person have the right to defend himself from unjust aggression of all types.Even a casual look at God’s Creation reveals that self-defense plays an important role in the self-preservation of nearly all forms of life. Perhaps human society could be profitably likened to a biological organism, every one of which has some way of warding off internal and external enemies. The more complex animal bodies dispatch white blood cells to attack germs and other toxic intruders. These white blood cells are very simple forms of life, but they are “wise” enough to act as if the wholeness and health of the organism is at stake, and without sentiment or ceremony destroy the intruder. These enemies of the body are not kept alive and cordoned off in prisons to be preserved. They are destroyed and eliminated as any future threat.Similarly, evil persons are intruders into the “body” of decent human society, which has a right to protect and defend itself against such intrusion. A body without an immune system cannot defend itself and soon dies. Any godly society that refuses to establish and enforce God’s laws will also eventually “die,” i.e., be overcome by wickedness. People in the medical field work very hard to control “evil” in a body so that a person will not die of disease, and it is understood that harmful bacteria must be killed so the body will be healthy. So too, if we are to have a healthy society, wicked and harmful people need to be executed. This clearly teaches the value of life, because it shows that the only thing as valuable as a life is a life. No wonder God commanded, “Life for life” in Scripture, and even repeated it twice (Ex. 21:23; Deut. 19:21).SOURCE: Truth or Tradition?
     
  10. butxifxnot

    butxifxnot New Member

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    (E Nomine;18430)
    Since Solomon was a prophet of God, butxifxnot, I'll take his words over yours, mate. Unless you are a prophet of God . . ..
    You are rejecting Christ without even realizing it: I'm not preaching my words: I'm preaching Christ's. "Hatred is murder" is not my teaching: it's Christ's.I don't need to be a prophet to use plain syllogistic reasoning: Christ said hatred is murder: Solomon said there is a time to hate: to say that Solomon advocates hatred because of his statement is to say that he is advocating sin (a la Jesus' teaching). That can't possibly be right, so Solomon is must NOT be advocating hate.That SAME reasoning MUST mean that Solomon is also NOT advocating war.Pure, simple logic. Don't make it more complicated than it must be: don't forget the blunder of poor Brother Sam.(kriss;18431)
    I am not concerned about what your personal opinions are.
    I know. And I don't care that you're not.
    The only thing that matters is what scripture says And it says the control of Nation, Governments,Wars positive or negative are Gods to control to bring about his plans his prophecy. And yes people die do we have to like that? No, but we must have FAITH that they die for Gods plan and he will reward them in his way.Are we to hate our enemies? No. we are to love them does that mean that overrides God decisions? No. If its that persons time to die would it be better they get killed by a drunk driver or working to bring Gods plan about to save as many as call his name.
    Mmhm.
    Does it make one person here happy when someone dies?????Enemy or friendI think not therefore we all love our enemies.
    You do not love someone by killing him. Jesus teaches one thing in two parts:1) Love your enemy.2) Do good to those who hate you.Therefore, Loving your enemy MEANS doing good to them: returning GOOD for evil. Not killing him.I'm not saying the governments of this world are monstrous. But I AM saying that a Christian is simply and plainly not following Christ by joining a force that is out to do EVIL against its enemies.Jesus says that loving your enemy means doing good to those who hate you and DO YOU HARM. YOU are saying that you can love your enemy, as long as you don't WANT to be doing him harm while you're doing it: that's fine to believe, but it is NOT BIBLICAL. If it is, I'd like for you to produce the Scripture.I am not the one with personal opinions here.
    Like it or not the Word tells us God is in control of all governments and their agents
    So would you say that Hitler's troops could justifiably be considered followers of Christ?They are, after all, following a government, which God is in control of. Right? Right?
    you can have all the personal opinions you want and they are just that personal opinions
    You can label pure reasoning "personal opinion" all you want. That doesn't change what it is.
     
  11. butxifxnot

    butxifxnot New Member

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    (thesuperjag;18434)
    Sure, I'll give you scriptures...Much more.Exodus 15:3 - The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.Jeremiah 21:4 - Thus saith the LORD God of Israel; Behold, I will turn back the weapons of war that are in your hands, wherewith ye fight against the king of Babylon, and against the Chaldeans, which besiege you without the walls, and I will assemble them into the midst of this city.
    Yes, He is. The Lord is the Righteous Judge of the Universe. [​IMG]NOT any earthly government. If you say that God is behind every government (a la "every government has been established by God"), then America had NO RIGHT to war against Hitler.The LORD is the Judge. And Ancient Israel was THE LORD'S nation.Show me a nation that represents the direct will of God like Israel in the OT.War then and war now are two totally separate things."God is on the side with the most guns"-Napolean Bonaparte
    Ecclesiastes 3:8 - Ecclesiastes 3:8 - A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
    Yep. Addressed.(E Nomine)
    [long post]SOURCE: Truth or Tradition?
    I'd reply to this if it was personally written out and a lot of effort put into it, but it appears by the amount of time took to "write" and this link at the end that this is a copy and paste job.So I'm going to ignore it: I'm not trying to convince "truthortradition.com", here. The first pitfall to worldly thinking is basing one's premises on outside influences BEFORE the Word of God.
     
  12. E Nomine

    E Nomine New Member

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    (butxifxnot;18436)
    You can label pure reasoning "personal opinion" all you want. That doesn't change what it is.
    Quit hipocraticle. Although not filled with as much hate as Joyfull your arrogence is getting annoying.
     
  13. butxifxnot

    butxifxnot New Member

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    (E Nomine;18438)
    Quit hipocraticle.
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hipocraticle???
    Although not filled with as much hate as Joyfull your arrogence is getting annoying
    I'm sorry that you feel that way. I've done this before. = And I'm not getting anything new: whenever I discuss this anywhere, everyone ALWAYS relies fundamentally on secular reasoning rather than the Bible to promote the Biblicality of Christians joining the military. About half of what I'm saying is pure Bible, the other half is pure reasoning against people's bad logic and Bible reasoning. And I don't appreciate how although my logic and Bible references are referred to as "personal opinion" by a person whose reply is loaded with them (read Kriss' post: see if all of her (?) reasonings are Bible-based or extra-bible-based), I am the one chastized for alleging that I am being objective.
     
  14. E Nomine

    E Nomine New Member

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    Yea, I'm not the best speller in the world nor have I claimed to be. +1 for being a jerk.You rock, dude.
     
  15. butxifxnot

    butxifxnot New Member

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    =_=So much for a warm reception: I honestly did not know what you were saying. = I'm sorry if it came off that I was belittling you.
     
  16. E Nomine

    E Nomine New Member

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    It did, and you're forgiven for it. No hard feelings between us.
     
  17. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    (butxifxnot;18437)
    Yes, He is. The Lord is the Righteous Judge of the Universe. [​IMG]NOT any earthly government. If you say that God is behind every government (a la "every government has been established by God"), then America had NO RIGHT to war against Hitler.
    I cant believe you would even make this statement and pretend to know the Word. It is god who says the Governments and Nation are his and his alone and your Hitler remark is really amazing you don't think God allowed that war that caused Hitler to commit the holocaust which in turn was the reason the Modern State of Israel exists today. Just as God said it would if you cant see Gods hand at work to bring about the greatest prophecy of our time to date you truly are blind.
     
  18. butxifxnot

    butxifxnot New Member

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    (kriss;18452)
    I cant believe you would even make this statement and pretend to know the Word. It is god who says the Governments and Nation are his and his alone and your Hitler remark is really amazing you don't think God allowed that war that caused Hitler to commit the holocaust which in turn was the reason the Modern State of Israel exists today. Just as God said it would if you cant see Gods hand at work to bring about the greatest prophecy of our time to date you truly are blind.
    God used the Sanhedrin to crucify Christ. It was God's will: that doesn't mean it was right for someone to take part in it. Was Judas guilty of sin for "playing his part" in the salvation of mankind? Yes, he was. The Lord used it, but Judas was guilty of a great sin in doing it, even though God's hand was in it. And Peter tried to resist the sin of Judas, but Jesus rebuked him for trying to execute righteous judgment on those who would take Jesus to kill Him (a great wrong). Do you see the parallels with self-defence/Christian actionism in war? I'm not refusing God's sovereignty: I'm talking about Christians obeying Christ. God didn't NEED vile humans to do horrendous things to bring about some of His plan that He did. But they did it, so He used it: not the other way around.*sigh* I see where you got what you did, but really...are you listening to what I'm saying? The general flow of my rhetoric was not leading at all to where you went.
     
  19. elmo

    elmo New Member

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    some how my last post got deleted. I really, truly believe that the verse: 1 John 4:7-8says basically everything about the subject and I will explain. God is love and we must aspire to be like him (although we are not perfect) and when it comes to defending ourselves and those we love we should plead or even beg for life and if that doesn't work run or hide and if there are no options left, then rely on Holy Spirit would be the best way to solve this issue. And one more argumentThe bible touches this subject when Jesus said that if you go to the alter and there have a quarel with your brother...go to resolve the matter then come back and give to god.God doesn't want fighting he wants peace.Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall inherit the earth.
     
  20. E Nomine

    E Nomine New Member

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    And I, in my job, am a keeper of the peace; through violent means, yes, but it keeps the peace.
     
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